France: Capet, Valois, Bourbon and Orléans Dynasties

[Alex93]

Request for additional informations

Ileana is also a descendant of Prince Vlad II Dracul of Wallachia,Byzantine Emperors as well as the descendant of the Kings of France and House of Capet,House of her husband...here is her line:



King Henri I of France,lived from 1008-1060
I
Prince Hughes I Magnus of France,Count of Vermadois et de Valois,lived from 1057-1101
I
Princess Agnes of France,Countess of Vermandois,died in 1125
I
Marquis Manfredo I de Vasto of Saluzzo,lived from 1090-1175
I
Marquis Anselmo de Bosco
I
Marquise Elena de Bosco,married before 1178
I
Marquis Guillermo VIII of Monferrato,lived from 1773-1225
I
Marquis Boniface II of Monferrato,lived from 1202-1256
I
Marquis Guillermo IX of Monferrato,lived from 1243-1292
I
Marquise Yolanda de Monferrato,Regent of Thessaloniki,lived from 1274-1313
I
Prince Demetrios Angelodukas Palaiologos of Byzantium,lived from 1296-1343
I
Princess Eirene Palaiologos of Thessaloniki,married in 1341
I
Prince Theodorus Palaiologos Kantakuzenos,Sebastokrator and Despot of Moreia,lived from 1361-1410
I
Princess Eirene Palaiologos Kantakuzenos,lived from 1400-1457
I
Prince Stephan Brankovic,Despot of Raska,lived from 1425-1476
I
Prince Jovan Brankovic,Despot of Raitzen,lived from 1465-1502
I
Princess Jelena Brankovic,strangled in 1552
I
Princess Ruxandra Rares,Regent of Moldavia,lived from 1537-1570
I
Ilias,Ruler of Wallachia
I
Alexandru Ilias,Duke of Wallachia
I
Ilias Alexandru,Duke o Wallachia from 1666-1668
I
Princess Sultane Chrysokula of Wallachia,died in 1694
I
Princess Helene Mavrocordato,lived from 1682-1722
I
Princess Marioara Rosetti
I
Michael Soutzo,Prince of Wallachia and Moldavia,lived from 1729-1803
I
Princess Marioara Soutzo,died in 1846
I
Sevastia Argyropoulo,lived from 1806-1883
I
Trasybulos Manos,lived from 1835-1922
I
Konstantinos Manos,lived from 1869-1913
I
Alexander Manos,lived from 1903-1979
I
Konstantinos Manos,born in 1937
I
ILEANA MANOS,Duchesse de Chartres,born in 1971

Greetings, I have just read with great interest your illuminating post but I am unable to further research the subject with my current sources, if you could be so kind could you help me in providing me with your sources and if possible a diagram that presents the marriages and the clear picture of the linage from Henri I of Frankia to her today... it is of the utmost importance to my overall research and I would be in your dept.

Kind Regards
Alec

 

[Marc23]

Greetings, I have just read with great interest your illuminating post but I am unable to further research the subject with my current sources, if you could be so kind could you help me in providing me with your sources and if possible a diagram that presents the marriages and the clear picture of the linage from Henri I of Frankia to her today... it is of the utmost importance to my overall research and I would be in your dept.

Kind Regards
Alec

King Henri I of France,lived from 1008-1060
I
Prince Hughes I Magnus of France,Count of Vermadois et de Valois,lived from 1057-1101
I
Princess Agnes of France,Countess of Vermandois,died in 1125
I
Marquis Manfredo I de Vasto of Saluzzo,lived from 1090-1175
I
Marquis Anselmo de Bosco
I
Marquise Elena de Bosco,married before 1178
I
Marquis Guillermo VIII of Monferrato,lived from 1773-1225
I
Marquis Boniface II of Monferrato,lived from 1202-1256
I
Marquis Guillermo IX of Monferrato,lived from 1243-1292
I
Marquise Yolanda de Monferrato,Regent of Thessaloniki,lived from 1274-1313
I
Prince Demetrios Angelodukas Palaiologos of Byzantium,lived from 1296-1343
I
Princess Eirene Palaiologos of Thessaloniki,married in 1341
I
Prince Theodorus Palaiologos Kantakuzenos,Sebastokrator and Despot of Moreia,lived from 1361-1410
I
Princess Eirene Palaiologos Kantakuzenos,lived from 1400-1457
I
Prince Stephan Brankovic,Despot of Raska,lived from 1425-1476
I
Princess Milica Brankovic of Raska,lived from 1474-1554
I
Prince Teodosie Basarab of Wallachia,reigned from 1521-1522
I
Prince Radu Serban Basarab of Wallachia,reigned from 1602-1610,died in 1611
I
Princess Elena Basarab-Craiovescu of Wallachia,lived from 1611-1697
I
Prince Serban III Cantacuzene,lived from 1635-1688
I
Prince Gheorghe Cantacuzene,lived from 1680-1739
I
Prince Matei Cantacuzene,also Reischgraf Kantakuzen,born in 1717
I
Prince Nicolae Cantacuzene
I
Princess Maria Cantacuzene-Craiovescu,married in 1781
I
Boyarine Ruxandra Racovitza of Buzau,died in 1866
I
Princess Euphrosine Soutzos,lived from 1830-1878
I
Roxane Mavromichalis,lived from 1848-1905
I
Konstantinos Manos,lived from 1869-1913
I
Alexander Manos,lived from 1903-1979
I
Konstantinos Manos,born in 1937
I
ILEANA MANOS,Duchesse de Chartres,born in 1971

 

[Marc23]

Greetings, I have just read with great interest your illuminating post but I am unable to further research the subject with my current sources, if you could be so kind could you help me in providing me with your sources and if possible a diagram that presents the marriages and the clear picture of the linage from Henri I of Frankia to her today... it is of the utmost importance to my overall research and I would be in your dept.

Kind Regards
Alec

Hello Alex93,I posted another line from King Henri I of France to Ileana Manos...

To your response,I was mixing resources because,not all of them are that complete...sources are Genealogy index by Miroslav Marek and Genealogics.org by Leo van de Pas...

For some names missing in those genealogy sites I used google in romanian language,such as the name of Teodosie of Wallachia who ruled briefly from 1521-1522...

 

[Alex93]

Hello Alex93,I posted another line from King Henri I of France to Ileana Manos...

To your response,I was mixing resources because,not all of them are that complete...sources are Genealogy index by Miroslav Marek and Genealogics.org by Leo van de Pas...

For some names missing in those genealogy sites I used google in romanian language,such as the name of Teodosie of Wallachia who ruled briefly from 1521-1522...

Dear Marc,

Forgive me for not responding to your message at a faster passe but a plethora of affairs have kept me from the Royal Forums for a while now.

Thank you for your reply but forgive me but I must say both lines of descend you have presented so far are utterly wrong, please allow me to show you the mistakes.

In the first line of descent of Henry I to Ileana Manos you had shown a rather correct descent up until Ruxandra (daughter of Petru Rares and Jelena Brankovic and wife of Alexandru Lapusneanu) unfortunately her "son" shown in your line named Ilias (he was heir pretender to the throne) was in fact not her son but her stepson (his mother is not known to us but Alexandru Xenopol and Nicolae Iorga as well as all other prominent Romanian Historians/Genealogists never state Ilias as Ruxandra's son) so this line I am afraid cannot stand.

Regarding your second line of descent from Henry I to Ileana Manos I am afraid I must also here state that it is wrong, Radu X Serban was in no way linked to Theodosie Basarab. Theodosie the son of Neagoe Basarab and Milica Brankovic had no known sons and as far as we know he was never married, Radu X Serban is possible that was descendent from Neagoe (according to Xenopol and Watson) but this requires an in depth research, the certain is that Radu was in no way a descendant of that particular Theodosie so this line is also incorrect.

If you wish (and it would be my pleasure)) we could together strive to find the correct line and exchange sources, but regarding this particular dual line of descent the mother of Ilias and (possibly) the father and mother of Radu X Serban have no Capetian/Montferrat/Palaiologos blood in their veins.

Looking Forward to hear from you

Kind Regards

 

[Marc23]

Dear Marc,

Forgive me for not responding to your message at a faster passe but a plethora of affairs have kept me from the Royal Forums for a while now.

Thank you for your reply but forgive me but I must say both lines of descend you have presented so far are utterly wrong, please allow me to show you the mistakes.

In the first line of descent of Henry I to Ileana Manos you had shown a rather correct descent up until Ruxandra (daughter of Petru Rares and Jelena Brankovic and wife of Alexandru Lapusneanu) unfortunately her "son" shown in your line named Ilias (he was heir pretender to the throne) was in fact not her son but her stepson (his mother is not known to us but Alexandru Xenopol and Nicolae Iorga as well as all other prominent Romanian Historians/Genealogists never state Ilias as Ruxandra's son) so this line I am afraid cannot stand.

Regarding your second line of descent from Henry I to Ileana Manos I am afraid I must also here state that it is wrong, Radu X Serban was in no way linked to Theodosie Basarab. Theodosie the son of Neagoe Basarab and Milica Brankovic had no known sons and as far as we know he was never married, Radu X Serban is possible that was descendent from Neagoe (according to Xenopol and Watson) but this requires an in depth research, the certain is that Radu was in no way a descendant of that particular Theodosie so this line is also incorrect.

If you wish (and it would be my pleasure)) we could together strive to find the correct line and exchange sources, but regarding this particular dual line of descent the mother of Ilias and (possibly) the father and mother of Radu X Serban have no Capetian/Montferrat/Palaiologos blood in their veins.

Looking Forward to hear from you

Kind Regards

Thank you for your answer and corrections...

I stand corrected for in possible way and look forward in some more research regarding this ancestry...

I searched for ancestry of Radu Serban and found this:

https://books.google.rs/books?id=ZA...4csCh22hQkT#v=onepage&q=Radu X Serban&f=false


If this is correct that means that Radu Serban has descended from Zrinyi,Subich,Bathory families which means that Ileana also has it's blood...

 

[Marc23]

But if the genealogy of the Cantacuzene family is correct then we could also find this line:


King Henri I of France,lived from 1008-1060
I
Prince Hughes I Magnus of France,Count of Vermadois et de Valois,lived from 1057-1101
I
Princess Agnes of France,Countess of Vermandois,died in 1125
I
Marquis Manfredo I de Vasto of Saluzzo,lived from 1090-1175
I
Marquis Anselmo de Bosco
I
Marquise Elena de Bosco,married before 1178
I
Marquis Guillermo VIII of Monferrato,lived from 1773-1225
I
Marquis Boniface II of Monferrato,lived from 1202-1256
I
Marquis Guillermo IX of Monferrato,lived from 1243-1292
I
Marquise Yolanda de Monferrato,Regent of Thessaloniki,lived from 1274-1313
I
Prince Demetrios Angelodukas Palaiologos of Byzantium,lived from 1296-1343
I
Princess Eirene Palaiologos of Thessaloniki,born in 1321
I
Prince Demetrios Kantakuzenos,born in 1343,Sebastocrator from 1355-1356
I
Prince Georgios Kantakuzenos,1390-1459
I
Prince Demetrios Kantakuzenos
I
Prince Mikhai Kantakuzenos,died in 1522
I
Prince Demetrios Cantacuzino,died in 1536
I
Prince Mikhai Cantacuzene,lived from 1515-1578
I
Prince Arkhon Cantacuzene,lived from 1553-1601
I
Prince Constantine Cantacuzene,Grand Boyar of Wallachia,lived from 1598-1663
I
Prince Sherban III Cantacuzene,lived from 1635-1688
I
Prince Gheorghe Cantacuzene,lived from 1680-1739
I
Prince Matei Cantacuzene,also Reischgraf Kantakuzen,born in 1717
I
Prince Nicolae Cantacuzene
I
Princess Maria Cantacuzene-Craiovescu,married in 1781
I
Boyarine Ruxandra Racovitza of Buzau,died in 1866
I
Princess Euphrosine Soutzos,lived from 1830-1878
I
Roxane Mavromichalis,lived from 1848-1905
I
Konstantinos Manos,lived from 1869-1913
I
Alexander Manos,lived from 1903-1979
I
Konstantinos Manos,born in 1937
I
ILEANA MANOS,Duchesse de Chartres,born in 1971

 

[Marc23]

This was done by mixing Genealogy Index of Miroslav Marek, genealogics.org by Leo van de Pas and Cantacuzene family genealogy:

http://ghika.net/Familles/Cantacuzino/Canta_03.pdf

 

[Alex93]

But if the genealogy of the Cantacuzene family is correct then we could also find this line:


King Henri I of France,lived from 1008-1060
I
Prince Hughes I Magnus of France,Count of Vermadois et de Valois,lived from 1057-1101
I
Princess Agnes of France,Countess of Vermandois,died in 1125
I
Marquis Manfredo I de Vasto of Saluzzo,lived from 1090-1175
I
Marquis Anselmo de Bosco
I
Marquise Elena de Bosco,married before 1178
I
Marquis Guillermo VIII of Monferrato,lived from 1773-1225
I
Marquis Boniface II of Monferrato,lived from 1202-1256
I
Marquis Guillermo IX of Monferrato,lived from 1243-1292
I
Marquise Yolanda de Monferrato,Regent of Thessaloniki,lived from 1274-1313
I
Prince Demetrios Angelodukas Palaiologos of Byzantium,lived from 1296-1343
I
Princess Eirene Palaiologos of Thessaloniki,born in 1321
I
Prince Demetrios Kantakuzenos,born in 1343,Sebastocrator from 1355-1356
I
Prince Georgios Kantakuzenos,1390-1459
I
Prince Demetrios Kantakuzenos
I
Prince Mikhai Kantakuzenos,died in 1522
I
Prince Demetrios Cantacuzino,died in 1536
I
Prince Mikhai Cantacuzene,lived from 1515-1578
I
Prince Arkhon Cantacuzene,lived from 1553-1601
I
Prince Constantine Cantacuzene,Grand Boyar of Wallachia,lived from 1598-1663
I
Prince Sherban III Cantacuzene,lived from 1635-1688
I
Prince Gheorghe Cantacuzene,lived from 1680-1739
I
Prince Matei Cantacuzene,also Reischgraf Kantakuzen,born in 1717
I
Prince Nicolae Cantacuzene
I
Princess Maria Cantacuzene-Craiovescu,married in 1781
I
Boyarine Ruxandra Racovitza of Buzau,died in 1866
I
Princess Euphrosine Soutzos,lived from 1830-1878
I
Roxane Mavromichalis,lived from 1848-1905
I
Konstantinos Manos,lived from 1869-1913
I
Alexander Manos,lived from 1903-1979
I
Konstantinos Manos,born in 1937
I
ILEANA MANOS,Duchesse de Chartres,born in 1971

Ah yes indeed the good old Cantacuzene line of descent! Although many self proclaimed "medieval historians and genealogists" have tried to dismiss that ancestry they have not so far given any single proof of its cancellation. But let us take the matter step by step Marc for we must be precise here.

First: Steven Runciman the most revered Medievalist that the West ever produced states in his book "The Great Church in Captivity" : "(The Cantacuzene are) [the only family whose claim to be in the direct line from Byzantine Emperors was authentic] On the other hand we have David Nicol who has actually written an entire book on the Cantacuzene of the Eastern Roman Empire aka Byzantium creating assumptions with no solid backing such as its exclusion from the book of valid primary sources such us the Massarelli Vatican Manuscript!!! In my opinion Nicol (who a few years after his book was published wrote a small book called Ardenta and Coridgenta to actually back of from its original thesis!) stating that the Balkan Cantacuzene and the actual Imperial line of the family were not directly related is with no backing for the author does not provide a single historical evidence against the matter at hand rather stating something as a fact with no etymology!

Secondly: If we are to take as granted that the Imperial Cantacuzene Line was in fact the primogenitors of the later day Balkan Cantacuzene the following have to be taken into consideration. (A) The Russian Imperial Office of Heraldry investigated the matter thoroughly after Prince Rodion Nikolaevich Cantacuzenus petitiones them asking to receive the title of "Prince" in the basis that his ancestors were the Imperial Cantacuzene of the Empire. The Imperial Heralds after analysing the matter agreed that he was indeed a descendant of the Imperial Line and granted him the title. Now if the Russian Authorities on Nobility got it wrong I would be willing to be castrated and shut in a Monastery with ugly nuns to spent the rest of my life lol ... Now the problematic issue here is that the aforementioned Prince gave the following line of descent to the Authorities:

Emperor Ioannes VI 1292-1383
Matias/Matthew Co-Emperor 1325-83 husband of Eirene Palaiologina (whose blood leads back to what we look for Marc)
I
Despot Demetrios Cantacuzenus of Morea 1345-84
I
Andronikos Cantacuzenus (last Great Domestic of the Empire died five days after the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans)
I
Zacharia Cantacuzenus
I
Michael Cantacuzenus
I
Teodor Cantacuzenus
I
Manuel Cantacuzenus
I
Isaak Cantacuzenus
I
Matias Cantacuzenus
I
Manuel Cantacuzenus
I
Alexios Cantacuzenus
I
Andronikos Cantacuzenus
I
Demetrios Cantacuzenus
I
Andronikos Cantacuzenus 1595

The tricky thing here is that this line has nothing to do with the one we are analysing it simply shows that the Cantacuzene very well survived the fall of the Empire but keep in mind the Grand Domestic Andronikos he is the key to the matter at hand for the line you have shown to me is based on the book of Sturdza "Grandes familles de Grèce, d'Albanie et de Constantinople" As much as I respect this great genealogist his sources appear to be as misguided on the matter of the Cantacuzene as Eugenios Rizos Rangabes is in his book "Livre d'or de la noblesse phanariot en Grèce, en Roumanie, en Russie et en Turquie" Both great genealogists have correctly asserted that the later day Cantacuzene are indeed direct descendants of the Imperial Cantacuzene but both show different lines but both are wrong for the Line survived only from the children of Andronikos the last Grande Domestic and I dont back this solely on the fact that the Russian SWAT Heralds agreed on it but by the fact that Jean Michel Cantacuzène has also revised his thesis on the linage of his ancestors based on the new foundings that came up after he had published his book 'Mille ans dans les Balkans: chronique des Cantacuzène dans la tourmente des siècles". Now he also points to Andronikos Cantacuzenos as the actual great-grandfather of Mihai Seitanoglou Cantacuzenos being himself the great-grandchild of Co-Emperor Matias/Matthew and Eirene Palaiologina, further into this matter found here https://www.academia.edu/2442284/Le...ints_et_monarchie_byzantine_et_post-byzantine

It seems that the actual line is thus Marc

Ioannes VI Kantakouzenos
I
Matthew Kantakouzenos (husband of Eirene)
I
Demetrios Kantakouzenos
I
Theodoros Kantakouzenos
I
Andronikos Kantakouzenos
I
Mihail Kantakouzenos
I
Demetrios Kantakouzenos
I
Mihail Seitanoglou Kantakouzenos

and the rest as you have shown

This I base on the Massarelli Vatican Manuscript regarding the parentage and offsprings of the key figure of Theodoros Kantakouzenos and the rest based on the research of the highly analytic, precise and accurate Jean Michele Cantacuzene whose research is truly of the utmost value to the current matter

 

[Marc23]

At least we came to conclusion that there must be some connection between them I enjoyed reading your posts and look forward in explaining everything as I am interested in genealogy and in ties that most people don't know about...

 

[Alex93]

At least we came to conclusion that there must be some connection between them I enjoyed reading your posts and look forward in explaining everything as I am interested in genealogy and in ties that most people don't know about...

I am afraid that the above information is by no means a conclusion Marc hardly it is but a strong thesis that can lead to the establishment of a fact only if we conclude beyond any contestation the line from Andronikos the Grand Domestic to Andronikos the Archon of the Phanariot era. For in all other connections we can be assured of the multitude of sources that affirm to the truth of the linage but regarding this part we only have 1 source as I shown you... remember that genealogy is based on what you can prove beyond absolutely any hint of doubt.

So putting aside the Cantacuzene matter (unless you might have found anything regarding the matter that we can refer too as "The Andronikos to Andronikos line of descent" I think we should move to a line of descent that I can assure you will be truly beyond any doubt if we establish it unlike all our previous analysis thus leading us to a direct and hopefully final conclusion, but I shall need your help in that.

Let me analyze further:

the Manos Family as we already know was descendant and intermarried with all Phanariot Families and we can at least say with certainty that it had multiple lines of descent from the Cantacuzene Princely House of Romania (the Danubian Principality Cantacuzene of the time) but in addition their line came also from the Basarab and Bogdan Musat Reigning Houses of Wallachia and Moldavia and here is were we shall turn our attention in solving the mystery.

We know that Prince Alexandru Lapusneanu was indeed a grandfather of the 20th century Manos of Greece and we also know that he was himself a descendant of Stephen the Great of Moldavia but more to the point a descendant of Prince Vlad II Dracul who had married a daughter of Prince Alexander the Good of Moldavia and a certain Lithuanian Princes called Anna (her christian baptismal name may come up with a slavic pagan name in some sources) that was daughter of Prince Georgy/Jerzy Koriatowich Prince of Podolsk who was in turn a son of Koriat Michal son of the Grand Duke Gediminas of Lithuania, Gediminas himself was married with a wife (ignore the theory of 3 wives he probably was married to but 2 but the one I state is the one whose blood descents to the matter at hand). His wife's name was Eva/Ivanovna and she was a daughter of Prince Ivan Vsevolodovich Prince of Polotsk. Now here is were it gets interesting mark, Ivan is said to be a direct descendant of the Rurikid Dynasty and this is what I cannot verify. So its up to you to fill in the gap, i can only verify to you that the Rurikids of the 10th-11th and 12th century had married with so many Western European Nobles that it is 100% certain that if we understand exactly who Ivans ancestors were we will be led to the Capetian Dynasty and Henry I of France.

So having provided what I know on the matter I leave you to work on your sources and tell me what you have find.

I look forward to hear from you with anticipation

Kind Regards
Alex

 

[aubri]

We may be related. I wish there was a way to share trees. Here is some info from my tree. My 28th great grandmother was Adela Capet, My 10th cousin 12X Removed James V of Scotland married Madeleine of Valois. He was also married to Mary of Guise and they had a daughter who was Mary Queen of Scots 1542-1587

 

[Marc23]

We know that Prince Alexandru Lapusneanu was indeed a grandfather of the 20th century Manos of Greece and we also know that he was himself a descendant of Stephen the Great of Moldavia but more to the point a descendant of Prince Vlad II Dracul who had married a daughter of Prince Alexander the Good of Moldavia and a certain Lithuanian Princes called Anna (her christian baptismal name may come up with a slavic pagan name in some sources) that was daughter of Prince Georgy/Jerzy Koriatowich Prince of Podolsk who was in turn a son of Koriat Michal son of the Grand Duke Gediminas of Lithuania, Gediminas himself was married with a wife (ignore the theory of 3 wives he probably was married to but 2 but the one I state is the one whose blood descents to the matter at hand). His wife's name was Eva/Ivanovna and she was a daughter of Prince Ivan Vsevolodovich Prince of Polotsk. Now here is were it gets interesting mark, Ivan is said to be a direct descendant of the Rurikid Dynasty and this is what I cannot verify. So its up to you to fill in the gap, i can only verify to you that the Rurikids of the 10th-11th and 12th century had married with so many Western European Nobles that it is 100% certain that if we understand exactly who Ivans ancestors were we will be led to the Capetian Dynasty and Henry I of France.

So having provided what I know on the matter I leave you to work on your sources and tell me what you have find.

I look forward to hear from you with anticipation

Kind Regards
Alex

From what I have found Ivan Vsevolodovich,Prince of Polotsk is the son of Prince Vsevolod of Smolensk(born around 1223),who in turn is the son of Duke Vsevolod of Smolensk(1189-1238 or 1239)...

And his ancestors were shown in this link...of course,if they are correct:

Pedigree Chart for Vsevolod Mstislavich, Duke of Smolensk: Our Family Histories

Check it out and maybe there really is another Capet link...there certainly are some Carolingian and Lotharingian connections...

 

[Alex93]

From what I have found Ivan Vsevolodovich,Prince of Polotsk is the son of Prince Vsevolod of Smolensk(born around 1223),who in turn is the son of Duke Vsevolod of Smolensk(1189-1238 or 1239)...

And his ancestors were shown in this link...of course,if they are correct:

Pedigree Chart for Vsevolod Mstislavich, Duke of Smolensk: Our Family Histories

Check it out and maybe there really is another Capet link...there certainly are some Carolingian and Lotharingian connections...

I've seen this genealogical link before regarding the matter at hand and I must say I am in no way convinced Marc. What we need here is sources, books and names of authors that verify the line shown in this family tree chart. Otherwise we cannot be certain and we cannot acess the matter in an academic level. So since u are already on it (and I so far have failed to find anything) could you find sources material to back that line of descent ?

Kind Regards
Alex

 

[Marc23]

I've seen this genealogical link before regarding the matter at hand and I must say I am in no way convinced Marc. What we need here is sources, books and names of authors that verify the line shown in this family tree chart. Otherwise we cannot be certain and we cannot acess the matter in an academic level. So since u are already on it (and I so far have failed to find anything) could you find sources material to back that line of descent ?

Kind Regards
Alex

So far I can find everyone except this Prince Ivan of Polotsk...I tried to google in Russian and found entry for his grandfather Prince Vsevolod:

https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/ЭСБЕ/Всеволод_Мстиславич

But nothing about his grandson Prince Ivan of Polotsk except on that link He can only be found as the father of Eva,Princess of Polotsk and on this link as we have already seen...

 

[Alex93]

So far I can find everyone except this Prince Ivan of Polotsk...I tried to google in Russian and found entry for his grandfather Prince Vsevolod:

https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/ЭСБЕ/Всеволод_Мстиславич

But nothing about his grandson Prince Ivan of Polotsk except on that link He can only be found as the father of Eva,Princess of Polotsk and on this link as we have already seen...

Do not worry yourself about Ivan of Polotsk his legitimacy is asserted by the facts I have found in multiple areas {take a look at this ascension and descension genealogy from Medieval Lands ... the section you must look is called "B. GRAND DUKES of LITHUANIA 1315-1432" and it is about Ivan of Polotsk (termed Vsevolodich aka son of Vsevolod) and his daughters marriage to Gediminas, in facts his daughter and sister seem to be Gediminas wives LITHUANIA then scroll down to his his descendants getting married into the Moldaivan Basarad Familiy in full detail.

What we need to establish is who Ivan's father was and what was his relation to the Rurikid Dynasty, we need books and authors that verify a Rurikid ancestry that takes us back to the 11th century and the intermarriage of the Rurikids with the Capetian Dynasty of France and the Salian and Ottonian Dynasties of the Holy Roman Empire. I have found a genealogical analysis made by the Mormons in The Church of Later Day Saints (omg rofl don't believe I just said that !) that shows the line you presented me in your previous post but in all honesty I cannot take them seriously. That's all on my part. Everything rests on you !!!

 

[Marc23]

Do not worry yourself about Ivan of Polotsk his legitimacy is asserted by the facts I have found in multiple areas {take a look at this ascension and descension genealogy from Medieval Lands ... the section you must look is called "B. GRAND DUKES of LITHUANIA 1315-1432" and it is about Ivan of Polotsk (termed Vsevolodich aka son of Vsevolod) and his daughters marriage to Gediminas, in facts his daughter and sister seem to be Gediminas wives LITHUANIA then scroll down to his his descendants getting married into the Moldaivan Basarad Familiy in full detail.

What we need to establish is who Ivan's father was and what was his relation to the Rurikid Dynasty, we need books and authors that verify a Rurikid ancestry that takes us back to the 11th century and the intermarriage of the Rurikids with the Capetian Dynasty of France and the Salian and Ottonian Dynasties of the Holy Roman Empire. I have found a genealogical analysis made by the Mormons in The Church of Later Day Saints (omg rofl don't believe I just said that !) that shows the line you presented me in your previous post but in all honesty I cannot take them seriously. That's all on my part. Everything rests on you !!!

Well,that is the same thing I wanted to say.Apart from few online resources which claim that line,I can't find anything else...to find more concrete a link between Ivan and his father...

But again,there are some other things which could also be interesting...

According to the link for the genealogy of Radu Serban I posted earlier,his mother is Zamfira Basarab of House of Draculesti,whose mother is Orsolya Bathory...this Zamfira Basarab is the granddaughter of Vlad Dracula de Sintesti(died in 1535) and Anna Vass de Czege...and this Vlad Dracula de Sintesti is the grandson of Vlad the Impaler,Vlad Dracula...

Unfortunately,there are not much informations from which line this Orsolya Bathroy descends...if she has somehow descended from the Somlyo line,this would mean that she has descended from the King Philippe I of France(Capet)...

All Bathory de Somlyo line has descended from the Capet family through Anna Meggyesi,great-granddaughter of Princess Elisabeth of Halics,whose ancestress is Princess Agnes of Antioch,wife of King Bela III of Hungary...

Agnes of Antioch's great-grandmother is Princess Constance of France,wife of Boemund,Prince of Antioch...and Constance is a daughter of King Philippe I of France(1052-1108)

Of course,this theory is only valid if this Orsolya Bathory somehow through male or female line(as Bathory family often intermarried) has descended from Somlyo line of the family...

 

[wyevale]

à la mémoire du Roi Soleil..qui est décédé ce jour en 1715.

lhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdeqbpfXaK8

 

[Alex93]

Well,that is the same thing I wanted to say.Apart from few online resources which claim that line,I can't find anything else...to find more concrete a link between Ivan and his father...

But again,there are some other things which could also be interesting...

According to the link for the genealogy of Radu Serban I posted earlier,his mother is Zamfira Basarab of House of Draculesti,whose mother is Orsolya Bathory...this Zamfira Basarab is the granddaughter of Vlad Dracula de Sintesti(died in 1535) and Anna Vass de Czege...and this Vlad Dracula de Sintesti is the grandson of Vlad the Impaler,Vlad Dracula...

Unfortunately,there are not much informations from which line this Orsolya Bathroy descends...if she has somehow descended from the Somlyo line,this would mean that she has descended from the King Philippe I of France(Capet)...

All Bathory de Somlyo line has descended from the Capet family through Anna Meggyesi,great-granddaughter of Princess Elisabeth of Halics,whose ancestress is Princess Agnes of Antioch,wife of King Bela III of Hungary...

Agnes of Antioch's great-grandmother is Princess Constance of France,wife of Boemund,Prince of Antioch...and Constance is a daughter of King Philippe I of France(1052-1108)

Of course,this theory is only valid if this Orsolya Bathory somehow through male or female line(as Bathory family often intermarried) has descended from Somlyo line of the family...

Hello Marc sorry for taking Ages to reply !! I was preoccupied with a plethora of issues lately xD. But now I am once more at your service

These new line-hypothesis you state is most interesting but like always i would ask you to provide it in a linear form like your previous build-ups so I can have an easier time in researching and verifying the facts.

Also we have another breakthrough here! If what I found is accurate then we might have a clear path to finaly solving the Carolingian/Capet ancestors.

Thrasyvoulos Manos - Arbre généalogique Christoph Graf von Polier - Geneanet

This is a tree created by a man named Christof Graf von Polier, is we are to take it literally he is a Count (German title for Count is Graf) and he seems to have a spectacular knowledge of the family. Since I do not have an account in geneanet and I am being bombarded with "things to do" could you ask him to provide his sources to us? Those would be the key for all previous issues we faced !

PS: take a good look at his expansive tree starting from Thrasyboulos Manos all the way back to the Basarab/Bogdan-Musat, Cantacuzene/AngeloDouka/Palaiologi and then to the Montferrat and the Capetian/Carolingian/Plantagenet and so on ... xD the line seems to go as far back as the early Dark Ages !

 

[Marc23]

Hello Marc sorry for taking Ages to reply !! I was preoccupied with a plethora of issues lately xD. But now I am once more at your service

These new line-hypothesis you state is most interesting but like always i would ask you to provide it in a linear form like your previous build-ups so I can have an easier time in researching and verifying the facts.

In previous page where I mentioned the same thing I posted a link to a book,where the linear form is presented.Here is the link again:

https://books.google.rs/books?id=ZA...4csCh22hQkT#v=onepage&q=Radu X Serban&f=false

If you look on the left bottom of the page,you will see that they stated that Radu Serban is a son of Barbu III Craiovescu and Zamfira Dracula,daughter of Basarab Dracula(1585) and Orsolya Bathory.

If this is correct if would mean that:

Prince Vlad IV Tepes Dracula,The Impaler 1431-1477 = Cnaejna Bathory of Transilvania
I
Prince Vlad V Tepelus,died around 1495 = Neasca Ujlaki
I
Prince Vlaicu Dracula de Sinesti,died in 1526 = Illona Zrinyi
I
Prince Vlad Dracula de Sinesti,died in 1535 = Anna Vass de Czege
I
Prince Basarab Dracula de Sinesti,died in 1585 = Orsolya Bathory
I
Princess Zamfira Dracula = Boyar Barbu III Craiovescu
I
Prince Radu Serban,reigned from 1602-1611

 

[Alex93]

In previous page where I mentioned the same thing I posted a link to a book,where the linear form is presented.Here is the link again:

https://books.google.rs/books?id=ZA...4csCh22hQkT#v=onepage&q=Radu X Serban&f=false

If you look on the left bottom of the page,you will see that they stated that Radu Serban is a son of Barbu III Craiovescu and Zamfira Dracula,daughter of Basarab Dracula(1585) and Orsolya Bathory.

If this is correct if would mean that:

Prince Vlad IV Tepes Dracula,The Impaler 1431-1477 = Cnaejna Bathory of Transilvania
I
Prince Vlad V Tepelus,died around 1495 = Neasca Ujlaki
I
Prince Vlaicu Dracula de Sinesti,died in 1526 = Illona Zrinyi
I
Prince Vlad Dracula de Sinesti,died in 1535 = Anna Vass de Czege
I
Prince Basarab Dracula de Sinesti,died in 1585 = Orsolya Bathory
I
Princess Zamfira Dracula = Boyar Barbu III Craiovescu
I
Prince Radu Serban,reigned from 1602-1611

Mark I am afraid this line is apocryphal ... All primary sources in my disposal contradict this linage that seems to exist only within the confines of the book you have quoted. Take a look at this link and see why Radu X Serban was not even remotely related to the Draculesti line.

http://www.ghika.net/Histoire/Craiovesti.pdf (middle far right side)

Also it is not just Filitti who states thus but we have another linage from historians Iorga, Xenopol and Steven Runciman, this time stating, that Radu X Serban was actually a direct descendant of Neagoe Basarab... what ever the case it is highly toxic Mark and I cant give you any definite answer. The primary sources are many and contradictory.

Take a look at my previous link though and tell me if you got back anything from it I think it is the definitive route if we get his sources

Regards

 

[Marc23]

Mark I am afraid this line is apocryphal ... All primary sources in my disposal contradict this linage that seems to exist only within the confines of the book you have quoted. Take a look at this link and see why Radu X Serban was not even remotely related to the Draculesti line.

http://www.ghika.net/Histoire/Craiovesti.pdf (middle far right side)

Also it is not just Filitti who states thus but we have another linage from historians Iorga, Xenopol and Steven Runciman, this time stating, that Radu X Serban was actually a direct descendant of Neagoe Basarab... what ever the case it is highly toxic Mark and I cant give you any definite answer. The primary sources are many and contradictory.

Take a look at my previous link though and tell me if you got back anything from it I think it is the definitive route if we get his sources

Regards

That's why I said if this is correct...I really don't know...

Unfortunately,the site you posted link to is not in English and I can't manage properly as I have never learned a word of French

 

[Alex93]

That's why I said if this is correct...I really don't know...

Unfortunately,the site you posted link to is not in English and I can't manage properly as I have never learned a word of French

Actually I had corrected you regarding that descent hypothesis in my original 3rd post to you but perhaps you had forgotten about it.

As for the French Language I don't see how it can be an issue as it's not a complicated passage regarding a complex social-economic analysis but rather a parathesis of names starting from a primogenitor and going downwards lol !! It is rather a matter of common sense. The names have after all slight deviation from their original Romanian form and are nearly identical to English !!

Anyway still take a look here http://gw.geneanet.org/cvpolier?lang=fr;p=thrasyvoulos;n=manos;type=tree

 

[Marc23]

Actually I had corrected you regarding that descent hypothesis in my original 3rd post to you but perhaps you had forgotten about it.

You misunderstood,I was thinking about the genealogy from the book about Queen Eliazabeth's ancestry which stated Radu Serban's ancestry...that's why I said if it's correct.

 

[Alex93]

You misunderstood,I was thinking about the genealogy from the book about Queen Eliazabeth's ancestry which stated Radu Serban's ancestry...that's why I said if it's correct.

There is no misunderstanding, whatever the book this genealogical link is apocryphal and it is not supported by any of the primary and secondary sources that deal with Basarab, Bogdan-Musat and Bathory dynasties linage... to sum it up Radu X Serban has many apocryphal links with illustrious ancestors as I have shown in the past and the specific descendants of Vlad III Dracul mentioned seem to exist only within the confines of the specific book.

If you could find any other source that supports this particular Draculesti descent (that merges with the Bathory and moves down to Radu X Serban) then I would be inclined to research it further but as it stands the whole matter seems to be a fictional creation given the absence of primary references.

PS: Perhaps if you were to provide me a family tree of the Draculesti I could give it a shot

 

[Marc23]

There is no misunderstanding, whatever the book this genealogical link is apocryphal and it is not supported by any of the primary and secondary sources that deal with Basarab, Bogdan-Musat and Bathory dynasties linage... to sum it up Radu X Serban has many apocryphal links with illustrious ancestors as I have shown in the past and the specific descendants of Vlad III Dracul mentioned seem to exist only within the confines of the specific book.

If you could find any other source that supports this particular Draculesti descent (that merges with the Bathory and moves down to Radu X Serban) then I would be inclined to research it further but as it stands the whole matter seems to be a fictional creation given the absence of primary references.

PS: Perhaps if you were to provide me a family tree of the Draculesti I could give it a shot

Well,too much for me,to find an exact one,except for browsing web...you could find their family tree in genealogy index,but again,not complete and uncertain.We always come to some conclusion,but is hard to say that's that,because we never know things for certain.

 

[Alex93]

Well,too much for me,to find an exact one,except for browsing web...you could find their family tree in genealogy index,but again,not complete and uncertain.We always come to some conclusion,but is hard to say that's that,because we never know things for certain.

Perhaps if we were to find an alternative route and leave behind the Balkan Nobility ?

I have found a few sources relating to the wife of Laurentios Mavrocordatos 1547-? named Eleni/Helena Massimo/Maximo 1556-? she is the daughter of Emanuele Massimo/Maximo and Jacobina Giustiniani (herself a daughter of Pier Giuseppe Giustiniani ?-1589 and Luigina Giustiniani).

Now we are aware that Mavrocordatos were direct ancestors of the later day Manos of the late 19th and 20th century so my point is this:

The Massimo/Maximo family of Italy had intermarried with the Cesarini, Sforza and Farnese Noble Houses of Late Medieval and Early Renaissance Italy. We also know that the Noble House of Orsini had married with the Montfort Noble House of the Middle Medieval Era. Here I have a line of descent showing clearly that from the Montfort/Orsini/Farnese/Sforza/Cesarini to the Massimo/Maximo /Mavrocordatos and finally Mano there is a continuity of blood that takes us back to the Plantagenet and the Capetian Carolingian Lines.

Here i'll post the link of this descent starting from Simon VI de Montfort

Simon VI. de Montfort - Arbre généalogique Christoph Graf von Polier - Geneanet


From that point of the tree you can reaserch each generation by following the linear I state here:

Guy de Montfort
Anastasia de Montfort
Guido Orsini
Aldobrandino Orsini
Bertoldo Orsini
Nicolo I Orsini
Aldobrandino II Orsini
Nicolo II Orsini
Lella Orsini
Fransesca Farneze
Marzia Sforza
Pentesilea Cesarini
Emanuele Massimo
and finaly Helena/Eleni/Elena Massimo that married Laurentios Mavrocordatos

I have just come up with this line but I have a feeling it must be the most well established after the one of the Kantakouzene

I have researched a few of the above names to see if they are historicly solid and all marriges and offfsprings from Simon VI de Montfort to Pentesile Cesarini match. The only thing I cannot establish thus far is the authenticity of parenthood relating to Emanuele Massimo meaning I cannot find sources that support he was indeed son of Antonio Massimo and Pentesilea Cesarini thus a direct descendant of the Montfort/Plantagenet/Capet/Carolingians

Lets see what we can work out from this one Marc

 

[Marc23]

I can only search online unfortunately...I found one link where only 2 sons of Antonio and Pentesilea were mentioned, Domenico and Orazio:

https://translate.google.rs/transla...milier/massimofamilienmere3b.html&prev=search

But again,in other some other links such as this,Emanuele is mentioned:

Emanuele Massimo - Albero genealogico Christoph Graf von Polier - Geneanet

I guess you already know these links.I can't find anything more

 

[Alex93]

I can only search online unfortunately...I found one link where only 2 sons of Antonio and Pentesilea were mentioned, Domenico and Orazio:

https://translate.google.rs/transla...milier/massimofamilienmere3b.html&prev=search

But again,in other some other links such as this,Emanuele is mentioned:

Emanuele Massimo - Albero genealogico Christoph Graf von Polier - Geneanet

I guess you already know these links.I can't find anything more

Hello Marc ... its been a while ... Yes I came up with the same links as you did and it seems that this genealogy might be just another apocrypthal one

As a side note do you perhaps have acess to Europaische Stammtafeln. I am reasearching some lines and I am told this series are very good for medieval genalogies

Kind Regards
Alex

 

[Marc23]

As a side note do you perhaps have acess to Europaische Stammtafeln. I am reasearching some lines and I am told this series are very good for medieval genalogies

Kind Regards
Alex

Unfortunately I don't. I am a lawyer by profession and don't have much contact with history,apart from online googling as a hobby

 

[Alex93]

Unfortunately I don't. I am a lawyer by profession and don't have much contact with history,apart from online googling as a hobby

Aha it's ok Marc no worries ... if anything new comes up to my attention about the genealogy that we are discussing I shall keep you updated

Kind Regards
Alex