France: Capet, Valois, Bourbon and Orléans Dynasties

[aubri]

We may be related. I wish there was a way to share trees. Here is some info from my tree. My 28th great grandmother was Adela Capet, My 10th cousin 12X Removed James V of Scotland married Madeleine of Valois. He was also married to Mary of Guise and they had a daughter who was Mary Queen of Scots 1542-1587

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by Alex93

We know that Prince Alexandru Lapusneanu was indeed a grandfather of the 20th century Manos of Greece and we also know that he was himself a descendant of Stephen the Great of Moldavia but more to the point a descendant of Prince Vlad II Dracul who had married a daughter of Prince Alexander the Good of Moldavia and a certain Lithuanian Princes called Anna (her christian baptismal name may come up with a slavic pagan name in some sources) that was daughter of Prince Georgy/Jerzy Koriatowich Prince of Podolsk who was in turn a son of Koriat Michal son of the Grand Duke Gediminas of Lithuania, Gediminas himself was married with a wife (ignore the theory of 3 wives he probably was married to but 2 but the one I state is the one whose blood descents to the matter at hand). His wife's name was Eva/Ivanovna and she was a daughter of Prince Ivan Vsevolodovich Prince of Polotsk. Now here is were it gets interesting mark, Ivan is said to be a direct descendant of the Rurikid Dynasty and this is what I cannot verify. So its up to you to fill in the gap, i can only verify to you that the Rurikids of the 10th-11th and 12th century had married with so many Western European Nobles that it is 100% certain that if we understand exactly who Ivans ancestors were we will be led to the Capetian Dynasty and Henry I of France.

So having provided what I know on the matter I leave you to work on your sources and tell me what you have find.

I look forward to hear from you with anticipation

Kind Regards
Alex

From what I have found Ivan Vsevolodovich,Prince of Polotsk is the son of Prince Vsevolod of Smolensk(born around 1223),who in turn is the son of Duke Vsevolod of Smolensk(1189-1238 or 1239)...

And his ancestors were shown in this link...of course,if they are correct:

Pedigree Chart for Vsevolod Mstislavich, Duke of Smolensk: Our Family Histories

Check it out and maybe there really is another Capet link...there certainly are some Carolingian and Lotharingian connections...

[Alex93]

Originally Posted by Marc23

From what I have found Ivan Vsevolodovich,Prince of Polotsk is the son of Prince Vsevolod of Smolensk(born around 1223),who in turn is the son of Duke Vsevolod of Smolensk(1189-1238 or 1239)...

And his ancestors were shown in this link...of course,if they are correct:

Pedigree Chart for Vsevolod Mstislavich, Duke of Smolensk: Our Family Histories

Check it out and maybe there really is another Capet link...there certainly are some Carolingian and Lotharingian connections...

I've seen this genealogical link before regarding the matter at hand and I must say I am in no way convinced Marc. What we need here is sources, books and names of authors that verify the line shown in this family tree chart. Otherwise we cannot be certain and we cannot acess the matter in an academic level. So since u are already on it (and I so far have failed to find anything) could you find sources material to back that line of descent ?

Kind Regards
Alex

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by Alex93

I've seen this genealogical link before regarding the matter at hand and I must say I am in no way convinced Marc. What we need here is sources, books and names of authors that verify the line shown in this family tree chart. Otherwise we cannot be certain and we cannot acess the matter in an academic level. So since u are already on it (and I so far have failed to find anything) could you find sources material to back that line of descent ?

Kind Regards
Alex

So far I can find everyone except this Prince Ivan of Polotsk...I tried to google in Russian and found entry for his grandfather Prince Vsevolod:

https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%A...B2%D0%B8%D1%87

But nothing about his grandson Prince Ivan of Polotsk except on that link :( He can only be found as the father of Eva,Princess of Polotsk and on this link as we have already seen...

[Alex93]

Originally Posted by Marc23

So far I can find everyone except this Prince Ivan of Polotsk...I tried to google in Russian and found entry for his grandfather Prince Vsevolod:

https://ru.wikisource.org/wiki/%D0%A...B2%D0%B8%D1%87

But nothing about his grandson Prince Ivan of Polotsk except on that link :( He can only be found as the father of Eva,Princess of Polotsk and on this link as we have already seen...

Do not worry yourself about Ivan of Polotsk his legitimacy is asserted by the facts I have found in multiple areas {take a look at this ascension and descension genealogy from Medieval Lands ... the section you must look is called "B. GRAND DUKES of LITHUANIA 1315-1432" and it is about Ivan of Polotsk (termed Vsevolodich aka son of Vsevolod) and his daughters marriage to Gediminas, in facts his daughter and sister seem to be Gediminas wives LITHUANIA then scroll down to his his descendants getting married into the Moldaivan Basarad Familiy in full detail.

What we need to establish is who Ivan's father was and what was his relation to the Rurikid Dynasty, we need books and authors that verify a Rurikid ancestry that takes us back to the 11th century and the intermarriage of the Rurikids with the Capetian Dynasty of France and the Salian and Ottonian Dynasties of the Holy Roman Empire. I have found a genealogical analysis made by the Mormons in The Church of Later Day Saints (omg rofl don't believe I just said that !) that shows the line you presented me in your previous post but in all honesty I cannot take them seriously. That's all on my part. Everything rests on you !!!

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by Alex93

Do not worry yourself about Ivan of Polotsk his legitimacy is asserted by the facts I have found in multiple areas {take a look at this ascension and descension genealogy from Medieval Lands ... the section you must look is called "B. GRAND DUKES of LITHUANIA 1315-1432" and it is about Ivan of Polotsk (termed Vsevolodich aka son of Vsevolod) and his daughters marriage to Gediminas, in facts his daughter and sister seem to be Gediminas wives LITHUANIA then scroll down to his his descendants getting married into the Moldaivan Basarad Familiy in full detail.

What we need to establish is who Ivan's father was and what was his relation to the Rurikid Dynasty, we need books and authors that verify a Rurikid ancestry that takes us back to the 11th century and the intermarriage of the Rurikids with the Capetian Dynasty of France and the Salian and Ottonian Dynasties of the Holy Roman Empire. I have found a genealogical analysis made by the Mormons in The Church of Later Day Saints (omg rofl don't believe I just said that !) that shows the line you presented me in your previous post but in all honesty I cannot take them seriously. That's all on my part. Everything rests on you !!!

Well,that is the same thing I wanted to say.Apart from few online resources which claim that line,I can't find anything else...to find more concrete a link between Ivan and his father...

But again,there are some other things which could also be interesting...

According to the link for the genealogy of Radu Serban I posted earlier,his mother is Zamfira Basarab of House of Draculesti,whose mother is Orsolya Bathory...this Zamfira Basarab is the granddaughter of Vlad Dracula de Sintesti(died in 1535) and Anna Vass de Czege...and this Vlad Dracula de Sintesti is the grandson of Vlad the Impaler,Vlad Dracula...

Unfortunately,there are not much informations from which line this Orsolya Bathroy descends...if she has somehow descended from the Somlyo line,this would mean that she has descended from the King Philippe I of France(Capet)...

All Bathory de Somlyo line has descended from the Capet family through Anna Meggyesi,great-granddaughter of Princess Elisabeth of Halics,whose ancestress is Princess Agnes of Antioch,wife of King Bela III of Hungary...

Agnes of Antioch's great-grandmother is Princess Constance of France,wife of Boemund,Prince of Antioch...and Constance is a daughter of King Philippe I of France(1052-1108)

Of course,this theory is only valid if this Orsolya Bathory somehow through male or female line(as Bathory family often intermarried) has descended from Somlyo line of the family...

[wyevale]

à la mémoire du Roi Soleil..qui est décédé ce jour en 1715.

l

[Alex93]

Originally Posted by Marc23

Well,that is the same thing I wanted to say.Apart from few online resources which claim that line,I can't find anything else...to find more concrete a link between Ivan and his father...

But again,there are some other things which could also be interesting...

According to the link for the genealogy of Radu Serban I posted earlier,his mother is Zamfira Basarab of House of Draculesti,whose mother is Orsolya Bathory...this Zamfira Basarab is the granddaughter of Vlad Dracula de Sintesti(died in 1535) and Anna Vass de Czege...and this Vlad Dracula de Sintesti is the grandson of Vlad the Impaler,Vlad Dracula...

Unfortunately,there are not much informations from which line this Orsolya Bathroy descends...if she has somehow descended from the Somlyo line,this would mean that she has descended from the King Philippe I of France(Capet)...

All Bathory de Somlyo line has descended from the Capet family through Anna Meggyesi,great-granddaughter of Princess Elisabeth of Halics,whose ancestress is Princess Agnes of Antioch,wife of King Bela III of Hungary...

Agnes of Antioch's great-grandmother is Princess Constance of France,wife of Boemund,Prince of Antioch...and Constance is a daughter of King Philippe I of France(1052-1108)

Of course,this theory is only valid if this Orsolya Bathory somehow through male or female line(as Bathory family often intermarried) has descended from Somlyo line of the family...

Hello Marc sorry for taking Ages to reply !! I was preoccupied with a plethora of issues lately xD. But now I am once more at your service :)

These new line-hypothesis you state is most interesting but like always i would ask you to provide it in a linear form like your previous build-ups so I can have an easier time in researching and verifying the facts.

Also we have another breakthrough here! If what I found is accurate then we might have a clear path to finaly solving the Carolingian/Capet ancestors.

Thrasyvoulos Manos - Arbre généalogique Christoph Graf von Polier - Geneanet

This is a tree created by a man named Christof Graf von Polier, is we are to take it literally he is a Count (German title for Count is Graf) and he seems to have a spectacular knowledge of the family. Since I do not have an account in geneanet and I am being bombarded with "things to do" could you ask him to provide his sources to us? Those would be the key for all previous issues we faced !

PS: take a good look at his expansive tree starting from Thrasyboulos Manos all the way back to the Basarab/Bogdan-Musat, Cantacuzene/AngeloDouka/Palaiologi and then to the Montferrat and the Capetian/Carolingian/Plantagenet and so on ... xD the line seems to go as far back as the early Dark Ages !

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by Alex93

Hello Marc sorry for taking Ages to reply !! I was preoccupied with a plethora of issues lately xD. But now I am once more at your service :)

These new line-hypothesis you state is most interesting but like always i would ask you to provide it in a linear form like your previous build-ups so I can have an easier time in researching and verifying the facts.

In previous page where I mentioned the same thing I posted a link to a book,where the linear form is presented.Here is the link again:

https://books.google.rs/books?id=ZAB...Serban&f=false

If you look on the left bottom of the page,you will see that they stated that Radu Serban is a son of Barbu III Craiovescu and Zamfira Dracula,daughter of Basarab Dracula(1585) and Orsolya Bathory.

If this is correct if would mean that:

Prince Vlad IV Tepes Dracula,The Impaler 1431-1477 = Cnaejna Bathory of Transilvania
I
Prince Vlad V Tepelus,died around 1495 = Neasca Ujlaki
I
Prince Vlaicu Dracula de Sinesti,died in 1526 = Illona Zrinyi
I
Prince Vlad Dracula de Sinesti,died in 1535 = Anna Vass de Czege
I
Prince Basarab Dracula de Sinesti,died in 1585 = Orsolya Bathory
I
Princess Zamfira Dracula = Boyar Barbu III Craiovescu
I
Prince Radu Serban,reigned from 1602-1611

[Alex93]

Originally Posted by Marc23

In previous page where I mentioned the same thing I posted a link to a book,where the linear form is presented.Here is the link again:

https://books.google.rs/books?id=ZAB...Serban&f=false

If you look on the left bottom of the page,you will see that they stated that Radu Serban is a son of Barbu III Craiovescu and Zamfira Dracula,daughter of Basarab Dracula(1585) and Orsolya Bathory.

If this is correct if would mean that:

Prince Vlad IV Tepes Dracula,The Impaler 1431-1477 = Cnaejna Bathory of Transilvania
I
Prince Vlad V Tepelus,died around 1495 = Neasca Ujlaki
I
Prince Vlaicu Dracula de Sinesti,died in 1526 = Illona Zrinyi
I
Prince Vlad Dracula de Sinesti,died in 1535 = Anna Vass de Czege
I
Prince Basarab Dracula de Sinesti,died in 1585 = Orsolya Bathory
I
Princess Zamfira Dracula = Boyar Barbu III Craiovescu
I
Prince Radu Serban,reigned from 1602-1611

Mark I am afraid this line is apocryphal ... All primary sources in my disposal contradict this linage that seems to exist only within the confines of the book you have quoted. Take a look at this link and see why Radu X Serban was not even remotely related to the Draculesti line.

http://www.ghika.net/Histoire/Craiovesti.pdf (middle far right side)

Also it is not just Filitti who states thus but we have another linage from historians Iorga, Xenopol and Steven Runciman, this time stating, that Radu X Serban was actually a direct descendant of Neagoe Basarab... what ever the case it is highly toxic Mark and I cant give you any definite answer. The primary sources are many and contradictory.

Take a look at my previous link though and tell me if you got back anything from it I think it is the definitive route if we get his sources

Regards

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by Alex93

Mark I am afraid this line is apocryphal ... All primary sources in my disposal contradict this linage that seems to exist only within the confines of the book you have quoted. Take a look at this link and see why Radu X Serban was not even remotely related to the Draculesti line.

http://www.ghika.net/Histoire/Craiovesti.pdf (middle far right side)

Also it is not just Filitti who states thus but we have another linage from historians Iorga, Xenopol and Steven Runciman, this time stating, that Radu X Serban was actually a direct descendant of Neagoe Basarab... what ever the case it is highly toxic Mark and I cant give you any definite answer. The primary sources are many and contradictory.

Take a look at my previous link though and tell me if you got back anything from it I think it is the definitive route if we get his sources

Regards

That's why I said if this is correct...I really don't know...

Unfortunately,the site you posted link to is not in English and I can't manage properly as I have never learned a word of French :P

[Alex93]

Originally Posted by Marc23

That's why I said if this is correct...I really don't know...

Unfortunately,the site you posted link to is not in English and I can't manage properly as I have never learned a word of French :P

Actually I had corrected you regarding that descent hypothesis in my original 3rd post to you but perhaps you had forgotten about it.

As for the French Language I don't see how it can be an issue as it's not a complicated passage regarding a complex social-economic analysis but rather a parathesis of names starting from a primogenitor and going downwards lol !! It is rather a matter of common sense. The names have after all slight deviation from their original Romanian form and are nearly identical to English !!

Anyway still take a look here http://gw.geneanet.org/cvpolier?lang...anos;type=tree

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by Alex93

Actually I had corrected you regarding that descent hypothesis in my original 3rd post to you but perhaps you had forgotten about it.

You misunderstood,I was thinking about the genealogy from the book about Queen Eliazabeth's ancestry which stated Radu Serban's ancestry...that's why I said if it's correct.

[Alex93]

Originally Posted by Marc23

You misunderstood,I was thinking about the genealogy from the book about Queen Eliazabeth's ancestry which stated Radu Serban's ancestry...that's why I said if it's correct.

There is no misunderstanding, whatever the book this genealogical link is apocryphal and it is not supported by any of the primary and secondary sources that deal with Basarab, Bogdan-Musat and Bathory dynasties linage... to sum it up Radu X Serban has many apocryphal links with illustrious ancestors as I have shown in the past and the specific descendants of Vlad III Dracul mentioned seem to exist only within the confines of the specific book.

If you could find any other source that supports this particular Draculesti descent (that merges with the Bathory and moves down to Radu X Serban) then I would be inclined to research it further but as it stands the whole matter seems to be a fictional creation given the absence of primary references.

PS: Perhaps if you were to provide me a family tree of the Draculesti I could give it a shot

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by Alex93

There is no misunderstanding, whatever the book this genealogical link is apocryphal and it is not supported by any of the primary and secondary sources that deal with Basarab, Bogdan-Musat and Bathory dynasties linage... to sum it up Radu X Serban has many apocryphal links with illustrious ancestors as I have shown in the past and the specific descendants of Vlad III Dracul mentioned seem to exist only within the confines of the specific book.

If you could find any other source that supports this particular Draculesti descent (that merges with the Bathory and moves down to Radu X Serban) then I would be inclined to research it further but as it stands the whole matter seems to be a fictional creation given the absence of primary references.

PS: Perhaps if you were to provide me a family tree of the Draculesti I could give it a shot

Well,too much for me,to find an exact one,except for browsing web...you could find their family tree in genealogy index,but again,not complete and uncertain.We always come to some conclusion,but is hard to say that's that,because we never know things for certain.

[Alex93]

Originally Posted by Marc23

Well,too much for me,to find an exact one,except for browsing web...you could find their family tree in genealogy index,but again,not complete and uncertain.We always come to some conclusion,but is hard to say that's that,because we never know things for certain.

Perhaps if we were to find an alternative route and leave behind the Balkan Nobility ?

I have found a few sources relating to the wife of Laurentios Mavrocordatos 1547-? named Eleni/Helena Massimo/Maximo 1556-? she is the daughter of Emanuele Massimo/Maximo and Jacobina Giustiniani (herself a daughter of Pier Giuseppe Giustiniani ?-1589 and Luigina Giustiniani).

Now we are aware that Mavrocordatos were direct ancestors of the later day Manos of the late 19th and 20th century so my point is this:

The Massimo/Maximo family of Italy had intermarried with the Cesarini, Sforza and Farnese Noble Houses of Late Medieval and Early Renaissance Italy. We also know that the Noble House of Orsini had married with the Montfort Noble House of the Middle Medieval Era. Here I have a line of descent showing clearly that from the Montfort/Orsini/Farnese/Sforza/Cesarini to the Massimo/Maximo /Mavrocordatos and finally Mano there is a continuity of blood that takes us back to the Plantagenet and the Capetian Carolingian Lines.

Here i'll post the link of this descent starting from Simon VI de Montfort

Simon VI. de Montfort - Arbre généalogique Christoph Graf von Polier - Geneanet


From that point of the tree you can reaserch each generation by following the linear I state here:

Guy de Montfort
Anastasia de Montfort
Guido Orsini
Aldobrandino Orsini
Bertoldo Orsini
Nicolo I Orsini
Aldobrandino II Orsini
Nicolo II Orsini
Lella Orsini
Fransesca Farneze
Marzia Sforza
Pentesilea Cesarini
Emanuele Massimo
and finaly Helena/Eleni/Elena Massimo that married Laurentios Mavrocordatos

I have just come up with this line but I have a feeling it must be the most well established after the one of the Kantakouzene

I have researched a few of the above names to see if they are historicly solid and all marriges and offfsprings from Simon VI de Montfort to Pentesile Cesarini match. The only thing I cannot establish thus far is the authenticity of parenthood relating to Emanuele Massimo meaning I cannot find sources that support he was indeed son of Antonio Massimo and Pentesilea Cesarini thus a direct descendant of the Montfort/Plantagenet/Capet/Carolingians

Lets see what we can work out from this one Marc :)

[Marc23]

I can only search online unfortunately...I found one link where only 2 sons of Antonio and Pentesilea were mentioned, Domenico and Orazio:

https://translate.google.rs/translat...ml&prev=search

But again,in other some other links such as this,Emanuele is mentioned:

Emanuele Massimo - Albero genealogico Christoph Graf von Polier - Geneanet

I guess you already know these links.I can't find anything more :(

[Alex93]

Originally Posted by Marc23

I can only search online unfortunately...I found one link where only 2 sons of Antonio and Pentesilea were mentioned, Domenico and Orazio:

https://translate.google.rs/translat...ml&prev=search

But again,in other some other links such as this,Emanuele is mentioned:

Emanuele Massimo - Albero genealogico Christoph Graf von Polier - Geneanet

I guess you already know these links.I can't find anything more :(

Hello Marc ... its been a while :) ... Yes I came up with the same links as you did and it seems that this genealogy might be just another apocrypthal one:)

As a side note do you perhaps have acess to Europaische Stammtafeln. I am reasearching some lines and I am told this series are very good for medieval genalogies

Kind Regards
Alex

[Marc23]

Originally Posted by Alex93

As a side note do you perhaps have acess to Europaische Stammtafeln. I am reasearching some lines and I am told this series are very good for medieval genalogies

Kind Regards
Alex

Unfortunately I don't. I am a lawyer by profession and don't have much contact with history,apart from online googling as a hobby:(

[Alex93]

Originally Posted by Marc23

Unfortunately I don't. I am a lawyer by profession and don't have much contact with history,apart from online googling as a hobby:(

Aha it's ok Marc no worries ... if anything new comes up to my attention about the genealogy that we are discussing I shall keep you updated :)

Kind Regards
Alex