Disputed claims as Head of the House

[Ralf]

In a few Houses the headship is disputed, since it is claimed by several descendants. Therefor I have some questions about that.

Rumania
In the former Kingdom of Rumania the headship is claimed by both Margareta as Crown Princess (* 1949) and Paul Hohenzollern, Prince of Rumania, (* 1948 as Paul Lambrino). Is Paul's claim legid, since I believe former King Michael appointed his daughter as legitimate successor?
And who will be their successors, since Margareta doesn't have any kids?

Savoy
In the House of Savoy (Italy/Croatia) both Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Italy and Duke of Savoy (* 1937) and Amedeo, Crown Prince of Croatia and Duke of Aosta (* 1943) claim it.
Heir apparent to Amedeo will be his son Aimone, Duke of Apulia (* 1967), but who will it be when the childless Vittoria Emanuele is appointed as Head of the House?

Saxony
And finally in the former Kingdom of Saxony there seem to be two men who claim the titel of "Markgrave of Meißen" and thus the headship, namely Alexander [de Afif], Prince of Saxony-Gessaphe (* 1954) and Rüdiger, Prince of Saxony (* 1953).
Is already clear who of them is or will become the actual Head of the House?

[M. Payton]

Very interesting questions and I am interested in the answers in particular to Romania.

[Jacknch]

Discussion about these issues can be found within the following threads:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ion-44224.html

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...icts-2411.html

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...tin-12517.html

[CyrilVladisla]

Prince Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Italy has two daughters. Is his eldest daughter recognized as his heir? Or is there a male relative recognized as his heir?

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla

Prince Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Italy has two daughters. Is his eldest daughter recognized as his heir? Or is there a male relative recognized as his heir?

The only child of Vittorio Emanuele is his son Emanuele Filiberto, who is father to two daughters, Vittoria and Luisa. I have seen a couple of quotes from Vittorio Emanuele and Emanuele Filiberto where they seemed to recognize Emanuele Filiberto's daughters as the future heirs of the house, but I do not have enough time for now to search for those interviews. However, I was able to find this one in the Savoy section of this forum.

[…]

Nel corso della stessa udienza, la Famiglia Reale ha espresso il più vivo ringraziamento al Santo Padre per il dono della Beatificazione di S.M. la Regina Maria Cristina di Savoia. Inoltre, S.A.R. il Principe Vittorio Emanuele, ha chiesto al Santo Padre “una particolare benedizione per tutti i Principi presenti e soprattutto per le LL.AA.RR. le Principesse Vittoria e Luisa che rappresentano in questa occasione il segno della continuità dinastica di Casa Savoia nella successione, cui sarà affidato in futuro il compito di custodia dell'eredità storica e morale della Dinastia".

Oggi ricorreva il genetliaco di S.A.R. il Principe Emanuele Filiberto di Savoia.

Torino, 22 giugno 2015

[Ralf]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

The only child of Vittorio Emanuele is his son Emanuele Filiberto, who is father to two daughters, Vittoria and Luisa.

Very true, somehow I overlooked Emanuele Filiberto as a future heir apparant... mea culpa
Although this doesn't answer the question who of the two - Vittorio Emanuele or Amedeo - is the rightful claimant to the headship of the House of Savoy, with their respective sons being the heirs.

[Countessmeout]

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla

Prince Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Italy has two daughters. Is his eldest daughter recognized as his heir? Or is there a male relative recognized as his heir?

Unless the rules of Salic inheritance were changed, natural succession means Amedeo and his branch are next in line anyways. He is the next closest male dynast.

[High King of Erin]

Vittorio Emmanuele has a son, and if I'm not mistaking, two daughters. His son is Emmanuele Filiberto di Savoie, who has two daughters

[Qutus123]

Romania
"Prince" Paul-Philippe Hohenzollerns claim actually goes way back further, his father Carol Lambrino was legally a bastard despite being the eldest child of Carol II, this is because Ferdinand I annuled the marrige of the future Carol II and Carol Lambrinos birth was outside the 300 day period where the marrige was legally recognised, however a random Portugese court ruled he was infact legitimate leading his son Paul-Philippe to claim the throne that Romanian law says he has no right to. He is also kind of an arsehole.

Italy
Amedeo, 5th Duke of Aosta claims to be the rightful King of Italy on the fact that Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples married "without the permission of his father". The Prince of Naples is also subject to some controversies, he was accused of anti-semitism yet apologised for the treatment of Jews in WW2 Italy, he punched Amedeo in the face yet the guy is trying to steal everything from him, he was arrested on corruption charges yet acquitted of all of them and the main one is that he accidentally shot and killed a boy during self defence on his yatch, when the bullet went through the walls of his yatch and into another nearby yatch. He admitted he was at fault but only charged with possesion of a weapon, the boys sister however claimed he was laughing about getting away with it, to this day their is no evidence of the existance of the video she claims to show this. Emanuele Filiberto, Prince of Venice only has daughters meaning after his death the head of the house will presumably either pass to his daughter with the first female head of the House of Savoy or just pass to Amedeos line anyway.

Saxony & Poland
Prince Timo of Saxony had a marrige which in both German and Polish succession laws is illigitimate making Rüdiger effectively a bastard, the last Margrave of Meissen, Maria Emanuel named Alexander, his nephew through his sister Anna as his heir, with him and his young son being the only legitimate living descendants of the Kings of Saxony. However, German succession laws do not allow for females to inherit at all, so Rüdiger is seen as becoming de facto legitimate as their is no other choice. In my opinion though, as the Margrave of Meissen is also the constitutionally recognised heir of the Kingdom of Poland (another long story I won't get into here) and Poland does allow for females to inherit when their are no elligable males, Alexander and his young son Georg Philipp of the newly created House of Saxe-Gessaphe should claim to throne of Poland, with Georg being married to a member of one of the mariad of Polish noble families.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Qutus123

Emanuele Filiberto, Prince of Venice only has daughters meaning after his death the head of the house will presumably either pass to his daughter with the first female head of the House of Savoy or just pass to Amedeos line anyway.

It will pass to his daughter.

https://www.ordinidinasticicasasavoi...emanuele-2020/

Originally Posted by Qutus123

However, German succession laws do not allow for females to inherit at all,

When Germany was a confederation of monarchies, some allowed females to inherit and some did not.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/royalty/germany_r.htm

The republic of Germany allows females to inherit.

[Kataryn]

Originally Posted by Qutus123

Saxony & Poland
Prince Timo of Saxony had a marrige which in both German and Polish succession laws is illigitimate making Rüdiger effectively a bastard, the last Margrave of Meissen, Maria Emanuel named Alexander, his nephew through his sister Anna as his heir, with him and his young son being the only legitimate living descendants of the Kings of Saxony.

I am not of the opinion that old family laws should be "adapted" as people need it. But it is a fact that who has the money, has the say. IMHO neither Prince Timo's wife nor Princess Anna's husband fit in with the need for an "equal" spouse for the Saxony princes and princesses. So there is no legitimate offspring of the family anymore, according to their house laws. As the Margrave of Meissen was closer to his sister than to Prince Timo's long lost offspring, he adopted her son and left his estate to him. That does not make him the "real" margrave, it's just that the house has died out and now the wealth is inherited by his nephew, who, as he was adopted according to German laws, can name himself a prince of Saxony. Just like Ruediger can name himself Prince of Saxony because his father had that name. But none of them is a dynast of the ancient House of Saxony through a legitimate line.

[Qutus123]

Originally Posted by Kataryn

I am not of the opinion that old family laws should be "adapted" as people need it. But it is a fact that who has the money, has the say. IMHO neither Prince Timo's wife nor Princess Anna's husband fit in with the need for an "equal" spouse for the Saxony princes and princesses. So there is no legitimate offspring of the family anymore, according to their house laws. As the Margrave of Meissen was closer to his sister than to Prince Timo's long lost offspring, he adopted her son and left his estate to him. That does not make him the "real" margrave, it's just that the house has died out and now the wealth is inherited by his nephew, who, as he was adopted according to German laws, can name himself a prince of Saxony. Just like Ruediger can name himself Prince of Saxony because his father had that name. But none of them is a dynast of the ancient House of Saxony through a legitimate line.

Annas husband was the Prince of Gessaphe (hence Saxe-Gessaphe) you can't get more equal than Prince and a Princess.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Qutus123

Annas husband was the Prince of Gessaphe (hence Saxe-Gessaphe) you can't get more equal than Prince and a Princess.

There are royal princes and there are noble princes and historically in the German-speaking world a marriage between members of the two different classes would almost always have been out of the question. The claim that the House of Gessaphe would be of corresponding rank to the House of Wettin rests on quite a shaky ground. That said, since the Margrave of Meissen retroactively decided that the marriage of Anna and Roberto was an equal match their son's position as a dynast shouldn't be questioned.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by JR76

There are royal princes and there are noble princes and historically in the German-speaking world a marriage between members of the two different classes would almost always have been out of the question. The claim that the House of Gessaphe would be of corresponding rank to the House of Wettin rests on quite a shaky ground. That said, since the Margrave of Meissen retroactively decided that the marriage of Anna and Roberto was an equal match their son's position as a dynast shouldn't be questioned.

And Roberto was from at last noble background which the mother of Prince Rüdiger was not. And to that his father did not ask for Consent, In many Houses like the Habsburg's for example the marriages rules where lowered and marriages to minor nobles accepted as equal but marriages to commoners not.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Stefan

And Roberto was from at last noble background which the mother of Prince Rüdiger was not. And to that his father did not ask for Consent, In many Houses like the Habsburg's for example the marriages rules where lowered and marriages to minor nobles accepted as equal but marriages to commoners not.

I agree. In the end a decision was made by the one who could make it and when doing so relied on a decision made by a family council in 1997. The fact that some of the members of that council later retracted their decision is, in my opinion, of no importance. While a unanimous decision was preferable they really had no say on the issue (I think?).