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  #21  
Old 05-28-2018, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Historians (from what I have read) indicate that M. Beaufort was so damaged from the birth of Henry she was unable to have more children.

Perhaps there are some old documents they've seen discussing it.


LaRae
Possibly. However I believe that Mary de Bohun, wife of Henry IV got pregnant when she was only 14.. She and Henry were married but his father did not want the marriage consummated till she was older.... but she got pregnant and then later she produced several children. I think she did lose the first one though
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  #22  
Old 05-28-2018, 09:17 AM
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Given that Margaret was on 12 when she was married off to the Earl and 13 when she gave birth to Henry it must have been a terrible experience for her.
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Old 05-28-2018, 09:18 AM
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Hardly unusual for a young royal, or noble female
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  #24  
Old 05-28-2018, 09:35 AM
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Having a baby at the age of thirteen wasn't that usual among the nobility, even by the standards of the fifteenth century. Couples often married early but husband and wife would be kept from sleeping together until the onset of puberty which was later in most cases than it is now. If you look at the sisters of Elizabeth, (Henry VII's wife,) who married and had issue none had babies at thirteen.
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  #25  
Old 05-28-2018, 09:39 AM
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yes true that they were often kept from consummating the marriage.. though not in all cases....but Henry IV and Mary D Bohun jumped the gun.. and she produced several children...
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  #26  
Old 05-28-2018, 10:48 AM
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The fact that other girls were lucky and went on to have other children doesn't mean that Margaret Beaufort possibly, indeed probably, didn't suffer gynaecological damage from giving birth to her sole offspring when SHE was thirteen, though.
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  #27  
Old 05-28-2018, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
yes true that they were often kept from consummating the marriage.. though not in all cases....but Henry IV and Mary D Bohun jumped the gun.. and she produced several children...
They had seven children together and Mary died in childbirth with that seventh child. She was 26.
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  #28  
Old 05-28-2018, 09:00 PM
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When King Edward I arranged a marriage between his 13-year old daughter Eleanor and the future King Alfonso III of Aragon, he refused to send her to Aragon right away because his wife and mother both believed she was too young and wanted to wait another two years.

Edward's wife Eleanor of Castile and his mother Eleanor of Provence were speaking from experience as they both married when they were 13. Apparently they wanted to save young Eleanor from the same fate. As it turned out, the marriage negotiations fell through and Eleanor married the Duke of Bar when she was 24.
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  #29  
Old 05-28-2018, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
When King Edward I arranged a marriage between his 13-year old daughter Eleanor and the future King Alfonso III of Aragon, he refused to send her to Aragon right away because his wife and mother both believed she was too young and wanted to wait another two years.

Edward's wife Eleanor of Castile and his mother Eleanor of Provence were speaking from experience as they both married when they were 13. Apparently they wanted to save young Eleanor from the same fate. As it turned out, the marriage negotiations fell through and Eleanor married the Duke of Bar when she was 24.
Her age was partly an excuse. She was technically betrothed to him until his death in 1291, nine years later. The issue was that Alfonso's parents were under Papal interdict, over the issue of the Sicilian throne. Until the interdict was lifted, Edward didn't wish to send his daughter to marriage. She was 22 when Alfonso died, certainly much older then most brides, and still single. While his father died in 1285, Alfonso and his brothers kept up the fight for Sicily, Alfonso supporting the claim of his brother James. He did try and make peace with the Papal state before his death, withdrawing support from his brother. Their mother Constance was the eldest child of Manfred of Sicily. Her and her husband Peter were meant to succeed him, Peter was made King of Sicily. But backed by the Papal state, Charles I of Anjou seized the throne from the family.

It was eventually settled after Alfonso's death. Frederick, younger brother of James and Alfonso, was named king by the Sicilians. A peace agreement let him keep the title, but as a vassel king to Charles who was King of Naples. He was later married to Charles' daughter Eleanor, who was the mother of his son, the eventual Peter II of Sicily.


The idea though of waiting made sense. Many of the royal brides forced into marriage that young (consummated) often died in childbirth or miscarried that young. It is said Henry VII's mother was left barren from complications giving birth to him, as she was so young (14).

Eleanor's mother had lost her first child at 14. Eleanor of Bar was her first child to reach adulthood (sixth child she bore). The first five ranged from still born to six years old when they died.

Edward's mother was luckier. Of her five confirmed children, only the youngest didn't reach adulthood.


Eleanor of bar unfortunately only lived for five years after her marriage, dying in 1298. Her husband died four years later.
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  #30  
Old 05-29-2018, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Her age was partly an excuse.She was technically betrothed to him until his death in 1291, nine years later. The issue was that Alfonso's parents were under Papal interdict, over the issue of the Sicilian throne. Until the interdict was lifted, Edward didn't wish to send his daughter to marriage.
No, her age wasn't partly an excuse. The account in Eleanor's Wikipedia entry is brief and misleading. The Aragonese wanted her to go to Aragon once the marriage by proxy had taken place in August 1282. But because she was only 13 her mother and grandmother protested, presumably because they'd gone through that experience themselves and wanted to protect her from the same fate.

The papal interdict wasn't placed on Aragon until later that same year. But yes, eventually it was the reason why the marriage was never finalized, even after the initial two year delay requested by her mother and grandmother had expired.
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  #31  
Old 05-29-2018, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
The fact that other girls were lucky and went on to have other children doesn't mean that Margaret Beaufort possibly, indeed probably, didn't suffer gynaecological damage from giving birth to her sole offspring when SHE was thirteen, though.
I never sadi that she didn't suffer gynaecological damage, perhaps she did.. but we don't know for certain.
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  #32  
Old 05-29-2018, 09:42 PM
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Who was the first British royal bride to carry a bouquet?
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  #33  
Old 05-29-2018, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Who was the first British royal bride to carry a bouquet?
Thank you for sending me on a new research mission. I looked at Charlotte of Wales and Caroline of Brunswick, two weddings that are well documented. I find no mention of wedding flowers. There are several articles on British royal wedding bouquets but they all start with Victoria.
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  #34  
Old 05-29-2018, 11:22 PM
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At least most Royal wedding bouquets of the past were seen and documented. The Queen Mother's wedding bouquet (reputed to contain white heather and white roses, myrtle presumably, and a whole lot of greenery,) was laid by the QM on the tomb of the Unknown Soldier at WA when Elizabeth entered the Abbey and so never appeared in news film of the time or photos. Elizabeth's brother Fergus had been killed in 1915.
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  #35  
Old 05-30-2018, 09:48 PM
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Thank you for sending me on a new research mission. I looked at Charlotte of Wales and Caroline of Brunswick, two weddings that are well documented. I find no mention of wedding flowers. There are several articles on British royal wedding bouquets but they all start with Victoria.
Kyle, It is terrific that you have a new research mission. Are not the weddings of Plantagenent, Tudor, and Stuart brides recorded so as to include information about possible wedding bouquets?
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