A German book about Crown Princess Masako


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Also, it is not accurate to assume that his nationality clouds his objectivity or precludes him from being a royalist.

I know, Kimebear. I wasn't intending to imply that all Aussies are irreverent and unroyalist. I posted that they can be irreverent, is all.
They tend not to be reverential which is great, and means that they won't take too much at face value.

The people from Down Under, that I know personally think Royalty is "for the birds" and are most opinionated about wanting them out of their lives, for good. Dealing with them up close and personally, is where I got my opinion of Australians from. I can also tell you that Aussies are laid back folks and a pleasure to associate with.
Again, it's all "No worries, Mate" with them.
It's great ;)

I am sorry if my post read as though I were stereotyping any nationality.

I hadn't meant to do that.
 
Although I'm from North America, I come from a mini-culture which is non-confrontational--a culture where it's considered "bad manners" to say something that, although true and kindly put, might be unpleasant for the person to hear. It's also considered rude to let a person know that you're bothered about something he or she has done or said. And believe me, my genetic background is about as far from north-east asia as one can get.:) So, yes, I can understand the bit about "saving face," at least in the way it's interpreted from where I come. I've moved into another province now; and although I first found the people here too up-front, I've come to appreciate that quality very much. The non-confrontational lifestyle might be very polite, but it means that people don't say what they really mean and that eventually there's a big blow-up because people don't discuss things until situations become very heated.

Although I am not Japanese the countries in North East Asia (by this I mean China, Japan and Korea) share some important connections through culture, historical influences, philosophy and language. One aspect that is still very important today is the cultural element of "face". This is a difficult thing to explain but basically it means whatever happens you at least give people their social veneer in public, that you preserve their outward respectability, there is a common saying that you should at least give someone enough "face" to be able to meet them again. We have already talked about national characteristics and perhaps the disadvantage of overpoliteness is that sometimes no-one is willing to directly mention the elephant in the room! IMO this is one of the reasons the IHA continually refers to Masako's depression as "adjustment disorder", because to talk about it directly is for Masako and the Imperial Family to lose face. Think what you may of that, I'm just trying to explain the possible reasoning for the euphemism.

Which finally brings us to Naruhito's comments. By so directly exposing the conflict to the media he caused the Imperial Family (esp the Emperor and Empress) and IHA to lose face big time. It's not pleasant for any royal family to have it's problems publicly exposed, but for a society where face is still important, this is especially so. Of course the subsequent actions of other members of the Imperial Family did not help matters. But you can see how face was still a consideration in how the criticisms were never directly worded, and even Naruhito did not directly criticise his parents.

That's my two cents worth for now. I'm not trying to say what Naruhito did was wrong, in fact given everything it was a brave thing to do, and I really think he must have felt it was the last resort in desperate circumstances. I'm just trying to explain a possible reason for why some did not view it favourable, even if they may have agreed with what he said.
 
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Although I'm from North America, I come from a mini-culture which is non-confrontational--a culture where it's considered "bad manners" to say something that, although true and kindly put, might be unpleasant for the person to hear. It's also considered rude to let a person know that you're bothered about something he or she has done or said. And believe me, my genetic background is about as far from north-east asia as one can get.:) So, yes, I can understand the bit about "saving face," at least in the way it's interpreted from where I come. I've moved into another province now; and although I first found the people here too up-front, I've come to appreciate that quality very much. The non-confrontational lifestyle might be very polite, but it means that people don't say what they really mean and that eventually there's a big blow-up because people don't discuss things until situations become very heated.

I am from NYC originally and we are thought of as being (by non New Yorkers, at least) very rude, and confrontational. New Yorkers are just direct, that's all. But, cultural differences do get misinterpreted, that's for sure.
Americans and Japanese are so different, in many respects. Masako Owada must have found, being so Americanized as she was, her new postion of the CP of such a tradition-bound country very, very hard indeed to adjust to. In light of this, I don't think anyone could have avoided getting ill, from all the stress.
I am glad to see some signs of her getting a bit better, or looking as though some therapy might be helping her.
GOOD for the CP Masako!
 
My sister visited New York City years ago and was told to expect loud, rude people; but she and the people she was travelling with were pleasantly surprised at how helpful people were and how polite.:flowers:

I hope that we get to see Masako in some official capacity at some point. That way, we'll know for sure that she's "on the mend."

I am from NYC originally and we are thought of as being (by non New Yorkers, at least) very rude, and confrontational. New Yorkers are just direct, that's all. But, cultural differences do get misinterpreted, that's for sure.
Americans and Japanese are so different, in many respects. Masako Owada must have found, being so Americanized as she was, her new postion of the CP of such a tradition-bound country very, very hard indeed to adjust to. In light of this, I don't think anyone could have avoided getting ill, from all the stress.
I am glad to see some signs of her getting a bit better, or looking as though some therapy might be helping her.
GOOD for the CP Masako!
 
My sister visited New York City years ago and was told to expect loud, rude people; but she and the people she was travelling with were pleasantly surprised at how helpful people were and how polite.:flowers:

Well, you see?

There we are.

It never pays to go in with negative expectations of folks.

Nor, to stereotype anyone, either, I dare say ..... :flowers:
 
Welcome back, ChiaraC, and thank you very much for the wonderful translation of that interesting book about CP Masako. In recent months she stayed in Japan with Aiko while Naruhito travelled by himself to different places, and I had the hope she was pregnant.

Maybe some other time you have time to translate another german book to us. I would love a biography of the last kaiser and his times. I mentioned in another thread that those times, ending XIX and beginning XX centuries, called in France,La Belle Epoque, and in England Edwardian Era, were similar to the ones we are living right now in the extremely liberal economic approach. Maybe those times have a special name in Germany, too. I read lately that Bismarck was very able in handling foreign policies. :)
 
Maybe some other time you have time to translate another german book to us. ... read lately that Bismarck was very able in handling foreign policies. :)

Poor ChiaraC.! No sooner do folks welcome her back here than they ask her for another favour.

Let's give this young woman a rest, please before we ask more and more of her, eh?

Just a thought ......

She's done non-German speakers already a world of good, to my way of looking at things. :wub:
 
Hello everybody, what a nice welcome back!

So many people! And I think it on one hand very interesting to listen to you explaining your various perceptions and backgrounds, and on the other hand I also think that this will help us to understand each other even better in this forum – because so we won´t have that often discussions like: “How can you say that? That is absolutely unreasonable/cruel/silly whatever!” and more like: “Coming from this and this background, I really cannot understand what you say. But maybe if you explain your priorities and your background I could get a bit closer to “getting it”.” And that is just the sort of exchange I am personally fond of. :flowers:

Thank you, kimebear, for answering my question concerning the chapter titles. And tan-berry and Abbie, I am grateful as well for your request, tan-berry, as well as for your “protection”, Abbie. ;) For the protection, on one hand, ´cause I do not see myself in the near future summarizing a whole book again – I had only the energy to do it this time because I was so very very fascinated with it myself. I am very sorry if I disappoint you by that... But on the other hand I am grateful for your request because it gives me the courage to say the things I really want to say – as that often means to give them a historical background as you will also see in the following when I explain why I admire Naruhtio´s way of acting so very much. I wrote that part (see next post) already at home and, while writing it, thought: “I really hope I am not getting on people´s nerves by constantly recalling incidents of the german past – but then I HAVE to say this to make myself clear.” It is good to know that at least one of you has a definite interest in history. ;)

For those who are NOT interested in Bismarck and German history, please, skip the next two paragraphs!

Concerning Bismarck, I have to say that I rather consider him to have been part of the problem than part of the solution just BECAUSE he was such a skilled politician. See, when the German “Reich” was founded in the second half of the 19th century many Germans had been wanting it for a long time already. (In 1789 the region that was to become Germany later consisted of 1789 – easy to memorize ;) - small villages, cities, princedoms, etc., all of them autonomous – just to give you an idea.) In fact, it had rather been a wish of the common people to come together to be one nation, not so much of the aristocracy, and the vision had been that of a democratic, open, liberal country with equal rights for more or less everybody. There had been several trys to get there and always in vain. And then Bismarck realized it but organized it “from the top level down”, he made it an imperial monarchy. And from then on there was – IMO – the same mistake over and over again: things were done and realized because they were a success, because they paid off, and more and more people forgot that in the long run it does not only matter to make things work but also to ask yourself from time to time: which things? Are these still the values on which we want our nation to be founded? (Actual questions though, bye the bye: at present, the whole world seems to have been run away with the idea of money and success and seems to have forgotten to ask: For what? Which world do we want to create?)

Of course, there are no politics possible without making a compromise now and then. Other nations have failed to live up to their moral standards, too – for example, Great Britain and France as imperial powers: Democratic standards that were a matter of course in the home country were never applied to the colonies. So, it would be hard to tell where and when it was exactly that Germany crossed the line of no return. But Bismarck had a way of thinking and acting that seems to me to show that he thought that every measure can be justified if you only think that it will get you where you want. He always tried to fight diversity in people because he was afraid to lose control if there was freedom and independence of thought. - And although I am not quite sure myself I do even think it possible that he was involved in the m.urdering of the Austrian crown prince Rudolf. Historians widely agree, I have to admit, that Rudolf committed s.uicide but I had a close look at the known facts, and I am personally quite convinced that he was killed by German nationalists – sorry to say it. (German nationalists, at that time, were already a very intolerant, narrow-minded sort of people, full of antisemitic and even anti-catholic prejudices.) If Bismarck himself really played a part in it, if he really would have gone so far as that, of this I am not quite sure, but that I think it at all possible probably gives you already an idea of my opinion about Bismarck...:ermm:
 
Concerning the "losing face"-issue

I would be very grateful indeed if German politicians (and I suppose that applies to most of the Western politicians, too) would make greater efforts to give each other a bit more "face". The way in which they – especially before elections – use to call each other names and to blemish each others characters is, IMO, highly disgusting. I would really prefer them to just clearly state the points in which they disagree concerning the ways in which the country should be run but still show SOME manners in doing that. How can you explain to your kids why they should not call each other "stupid" if the men and women leading the country are setting them such a bad example? So, I really see that there is definitely a great value in caring about how the other feels and in being concerned in your interaction with others to not put them to shame. Sure, being a Western woman, I certainly would draw the line between politeness and clarity somewhere else than most North East Asian people would but, generally, I see and appreciate the value of giving each other "face", and I also respect the fact that others draw the line somewhere else.

So, I am fully aware that Naruhito has broken one of the most important rules and has violated one of the most essential values of his culture – and that he knew in advance that he would have to pay a high price for that. But that is exactly why I admire him because I think that sometimes an individual has to deal with an extreme situation where he/she has to serve his/her country and nation by seemingly betraying his/her country and nation.

I think I have already expressed this view in another thread but I want to explain here more fully what I mean: The highest duty in Prussia (whose traditions were valid for Germany at least until 1945) was obedience – not only because obedience is a value that is generally held in higher esteem in monarchies than in republics – but in a very specific Prussian way that to other nations may seem exaggerated. For example, we have a very famous play about a Prussian prince who by disobeying his superior´s order wins a battle. His uncle - who reigns the country - afterwards sentences the prince to d.eath for his disobedience, without minding at all the fact that the superior´s decision had obviously been wrong. The content of the play is basically about how the prince comes to understand that this sentence is just. (He is granted mercy in the end but only because he understands that he has not deserved it.) (For those who want to know: Heinrich von Kleist: "Prinz Friedrich von Homburg")

The winning of a battle is nothing – obedience to your superior and doing your duty is all – and that is Prussia. (It may sound inhuman and cruel - and it certainly often was - but it did have some good effects: for example, it was next to impossible to bribe a Prussian public executive although they were poorly paid – whereas at the same time in France (before the French Revolution) it was quite clear that in order to get anything you had theoretically a right to from a public executive you had to pay them first – you would probably not even have called that bribing because everybody had to do it anyway.)

And the spirit of Prussia was still very livid among military people during the Second World War. So, when some of them decided to try and kill H.itler and were looking for allies among their fellow officers they got several times the answer – from courageous, honest people: "I understand why you want to do this, and I will certainly not tell anybody what you have asked of me. I am completely aware that this guy is a criminal and nothing more. But I have sworn an oath to obey him, he is our country´s supreme leader and we are in a desperate war against half the world – I cannot disobey his orders, because I would feel like a traitor then." Obedience, loyalty to the head of the state, duty were the highest values of the Prussian tradition. They simply felt that they could not break them.

Fortunately, there were several brave men who did overcome these doubts in spite of all the loyalty to tradition in which they had been raised and who understood that it can be more important for a true patriot to stop your country from committing unimaginable crimes than to protect it at any cost from losing a war.

And as you maybe know (if not, there is a movie upcoming featuring Tom Cruise ;) - well, I do doubt that ALL details will be correct but basically this is a true story), they tried to kill H.itler in July 1944. And although they were not successful and although afterwards hundreds of people who had been secretly working against the regime were put to trial, t.ortured and executed in consequence, they had, at least, succeeded to show the world that not all Germans supported H.itler. Fortunately for Germany and fortunately for me and for all who were born after the war there were these few men and women (only hundreds or maybe thousands - among millions) who preserved for us a chance to say: "I am German" without dying on the spot for shame.:sad:

And still, they were not appreciated by the majority of the German population - for a long time. Some of their children were called by their schoolfellows "traitor´s children" – even after the war. Most people at the time still thought that Stauffenberg and his friends were dishonorable traitors who had betrayed their country in a time of emergency.

And this is why Naruhito´s way of acting touches me so. He knew that he would be criticized for what he was doing. But I think that his was an extreme case in which obeying to the rules would – as I think he sees it – not only have caused great damage to himself and his family but to HIS COUNTRY ITSELF. Not only because it was in danger of losing a future empress in whose high potential the crown prince has never ceased to believe but, I think, also out of principle. There has to be a moderation in everything and a boundary to everything: I mean, if nobody talks about the elephant in the room that IS certainly uncomfortable - but also bit funny. For example, if a Japanese reporter is getting uneasy with a British correspondent saying that the British people are quite fine with having a woman as their sovereign and are a bit at a loss to understand why the Japanese shrink from this thought with so much horror (see the link in my post from the 21st), I might think that silly and may think that it does not make much sense because probably most Japanese are already aware, anyway, that the British people have a queen and do not seem to mind it, but I still can accept it as this is not immediately dangerous to anybody´s welfare. But when a person´s life is at stake? If people do not want to admit that someone is dangerously ill and therefore withhold a medical treatment that could save a life? Or to go back to metaphors: What if the animal whose existence nobody in the room dares to mention is not an elephant but a rattle snake? What, if the room is a school class? What if it is not only one rattle snake but one hundred? What if the room is a nursery? Where do you draw the line?

If keeping face is the highest value of a society, fine. But there should be also "emergency exits" out of this general "keeping face" for worst case scenarios, and there have to be people who set up the example and show these emergency exits for everybody to use.

And Naruhito is by no means the first one in his family to show such an emergency exit to the nation. His grandfather did the same when he admitted that the war was lost and asked the Japanese to stop fighting and save their lives. He could have "kept his face" by dying in the fight, undefeated - and taking millions of Japanese with him. (By the way: that is what H.itler did – when his own precious self was doomed to die he wanted, at least, to take with him as many Germans as possible. He ordered to destroy everything necessary for the survival of the German people, provisions, houses, harvest, cattle etc. Fortunately, just for this once many people – but by far not all! – disobeyed his orders.) But the Japanese tenno, in his turn, decided that the lives of his people were more important than his "face". He did not want to sacrifice so many human lives and preferred to "lose his face" instead. And he set the example for the Japanese to also rather give up a bit of their "face" in order to survive. Who knows how many would have committed s.uicide without his brave decision. That IS a true leader!:clap:
 
ChiaraC,
Thanks for informative posts. I really appreciate your comments about Otto von Bismark. I have to say that I fully agree with your comments about
Iron Chancellor. You have drawn interesting parallels between German and Japanese politicians.
 
I've found your latest posts extremely interesting, ChiaraC. For example, I didn't know that H.itler ordered the Germans to destroy all of Germany at the end of the War.

I've found comfort in the fact that the present Emperor of Japan, and now the Prime Minister--have refused to visit the shrine in which are entombed War Criminals. This is a huge shift away from Japan's previous "official" history of being the victims in the Pacific War.

(By the way: that is what H.itler did – when his own precious self was doomed to die he wanted, at least, to take with him as many Germans as possible. He ordered to destroy everything necessary for the survival of the German people, provisions, houses, harvest, cattle etc. Fortunately, just for this once many people – but by far not all! – disobeyed his orders.) But the Japanese tenno, in his turn, decided that the lives of his people were more important than his "face". He did not want to sacrifice so many human lives and preferred to "lose his face" instead. And he set the example for the Japanese to also rather give up a bit of their "face" in order to survive. Who knows how many would have committed s.uicide without his brave decision. That IS a true leader!:clap:
 
Extremely interesting, ChiaraC. Bismarck was an emperor. He reunited the 1789 to rule them by himself, since he only responded to the emperor, whom he absolutely manipulated in everything. He did not have to discuss matters with the Parliament.

Very interesting what you say about the obedience rule of prussians. One of the factors for Napoleon to lose in Waterloo, besides of being sick, was a general who did not dare to disobey him, even when the general´s lieutenants were hearing the sounds of the battle. Not at all a leader!

Why do you write Hitler with a point, like H.itler?
 
Some people use a point like that to sneak a word under the radar of any automatic censoring software that a forum might have. As you can see, Hitler isn't one of the censored words. However, the s-h-i-t letter string is one of the censored words, which can cause problems with Japanese names since it's quite a common letter string there. So you'll sometimes see a period used in the middle of a Japanese name to allow that syllable to show.
 
ChiaraC,
Thanks for informative posts. I really appreciate your comments about Otto von Bismark. I have to say that I fully agree with your comments about Iron Chancellor. You have drawn interesting parallels between German and Japanese politicians.

Yep, Albina, I think the similiarities between Japanese and German values and politics are some of the reasons why I am so very interested in Japan. Although Germany certainly does not belong to Asia ;) there are a lot of similiarities between the two countries, not the least of them is that they both in the end of the 19th century had the feeling that they had somehow "missed the boat" compared to other wealthy and powerful nations and tried to catch up in a way that in the end turned out to be very destructive...

But countries CAN change. As I said, even in the fifties people in Germany were generally not very fond of Stauffenberg and his friends, and today he is clearly a hero (as far as Germans still allow themselves to have heros...). And I absolutely agree with you, mermaid, I was also very glad to hear that the present Emperor of Japan, and now the Prime Minister have refused to visit this famous shrine.

If I put a period in a word, tan_berry, it is always because otherwise the word does not appear: In the library I was working yesterday I could not write Hitler without period but in the internetcafe where I am presently sitting it is possible.
 
Dolores´s legs

Thanks for answering, everyone.

ChiaraC, when I was a teenager in the 60´s I watched here all the Sissi movies with Romy Scheneider, german speaking and spanish written translation. I watched, too, a musical movie I have never forgotten, Dolores´s legs, so much I liked it, with much dancing. I am planning to resume my german language learning at the Goethe institute (I went once for some 3 months) since it is very much recommended to avoid Alzheimer to study a language: my mother had that problem, but very late in her life. She died at 81, and only for the last two years we became aware, when she panicked home because she did not where she was. But it is true that I use my brain a lot more she used to.

I loved so much the sound of german in Romy´s voice. :rolleyes:

We had a terrible dictator for almost 32 years, Trujillo; he was killed in 1961, and once he did a terrible slaughter of haitians in the border of the two countries for stopping their displacement to this territory. I have never felt guilty. He murdered and crushed us, too. We all condemn that horrible tragedy.
 
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Thank you, tan_berry, for your very good intentions to comfort me! Unfortunately, it would be too simple to say that the German people were simply overpowered by a monster and bore no responsibility whatsoever for what happened. But I cannot explain this here because this is really only very remotely related to Japan and the Japanese monarchy. So, please, you and everybody who should be interested in this matter, please follow this link. http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f187/german-history-and-german-guilt-19068.html
 
There had been only a very short time between the miscarriage in December 1999 and the second pregnancy already in March 2001 – too short for nature.

Sorry to ask a question rather off-topic.
When there is a miscarriage, is there some time for which, the next pregnancy cannot or should not take place?
 
Thanks to a reference to this thread in a more recent thread and went through this full thread today. It's an interesting read 10 years later with Masako (imho) blossoming in her new role as empress. Hopefully, she will finally find fulfillment in her new role.
 
Sorry to ask a question rather off-topic.
When there is a miscarriage, is there some time for which, the next pregnancy cannot or should not take place?
Over a year is definitely not too short. I don't think there are strict rules; it will also depend on the stage/time and the cause of the miscarriage.
 
For a first trimester miscarriage, without any medical complications, the doctors here recommend waiting 3 months before trying again. I know people who waited less and those who waited longer and had successful subsequent pregnancies.
And of course, Masako was using fertility treatments, I assume IVF, so things would be different again.

And I also have been reading this thread and it’s been fascinating. I had no idea about some of the things that happened back then, like Fumihito having an affair or how little time Masako and Naruhito spent together before the engagement was announced after a separation of 5 years.
 
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Reading this thread I noticed that the now Emperor Naruhito has a warm haerd and that the God became human.
 
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