Thank you, Veram. That was informative and for me at least, new . I do not think it is my Prince Hassan bias that is talking when I sense an underlying appreciation of Prince Hassan's strengths and achivements. There were nay sayers in 1999, but I think now with six years having passed since the succession crisis I think it is generally accepted in Jordan and the Arab world, that Prince Hassan was far more popular than people might have realised, and has a wealth of knowledge, experience and contacts that should be used for the benefit of Jordan and the region. It is a pity that the present King does not seem to have the self confidence and wisdom to do this. Prince Hassan has in fact gone from strength to strength in the past six years, with his personal prestige enormously enhanced . I think there are many who now have cause to regret that he is not in a postion of being a real mover and shaker in Arab politics, but there are also those who feel his moral authority is all the stronger because of his independence from some of the requirements of being a Head of State in the world of today.
Succession issues in the Royal Family of Jordan
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Overall, this seems like a fairly balanced account to me, one that gives P. Hassan his due and also explains how KH's complicated marital and family life impacted the succession change.Veram98 said:
Some of us have speculated on the role sibling rivalry might have played in the succession change. I believe that the differences in the brothers were apparent enough for KH to conceivably have some concerns about how his legacy would stack up against a King Hassan's, given the differences in their preparation for the role of king, their education, their intelligence, etc. The above sentence seems to support my theory.
These two still seem to have their issues.
Upon first reading this, I interpreted it as a comment on P. Sarvath's "origins" in the geographic sense. In fact, she is not Pakistan born, but Calcutta born. But as I parse the words, it seems to refer to her "origins" in the hierarchical sense, meaning (I guess) that she was not royal born. Is that how others interpret this sentence?
I'm a little confused about this, since it seems to me that some Jordanians have a bit of difficulty accepting people from outside their own country. For example, not only is P. Sarvath always referred to as Pakistani, QN is referred to as American, and these references always seem to imply some lack of acceptance, some unworthiness. I come from an immigrant nation, so I find it unfair to hold such a thing against these women.
The use of the word "justify" is interesting here. . .not notify, not announce, but justify. I think this is the letter in which all the nasty allegations were made about spreading rumors about QN, redecorating the palace, etc. Hmmm.
I'm glad Robins noted this. It speaks volumes about P. Hassan's character.
Veram98
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You are (all) welcome. I really appreciated Robins' book as a balanced analysis of Jordan's development and wanted to share at least this especially interesting part of it.
It seems that at least a big part of the (Trans)Jordanian elite and upper middles classes don't really like a foreign queen, may she be British, American or Pakistani (or a Palestinian 'refugee'). I think they do not accept that the Hashemites obviously prefer foreign commoners as consorts to their own daughters.
But I met also people in Jordan who actually would prefer a converted Western to a Muslim born Pakistani queen, and was told by a journalist living in the country that this opinion is shared by more people I would imagine and has a lot to do with the fact that Jordanians are used to Pakistanis as foreign workers for low status jobs and house maids, at the bottom of the hierarchical society of Jordan, while Westerners enjoy a much higher standing.
papillon said:
It seems that at least a big part of the (Trans)Jordanian elite and upper middles classes don't really like a foreign queen, may she be British, American or Pakistani (or a Palestinian 'refugee'). I think they do not accept that the Hashemites obviously prefer foreign commoners as consorts to their own daughters.
But I met also people in Jordan who actually would prefer a converted Western to a Muslim born Pakistani queen, and was told by a journalist living in the country that this opinion is shared by more people I would imagine and has a lot to do with the fact that Jordanians are used to Pakistanis as foreign workers for low status jobs and house maids, at the bottom of the hierarchical society of Jordan, while Westerners enjoy a much higher standing.
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Veram, I think that you have hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, some Jordanians are obsessed with the west in the most ridiculous ways ( hence for instance, the desperate desire amongst many Jordanian girls to have blonde hair ). I had started typing an answer which covers some of the same points so I will post it as it was:
From Philip Robins book:
“Hasan and his Pakistan born wife (Footnote by the author: Though herself a patrician, being the younger daughter of the country's first foreign minister, there is no doubt that in the hierarchical society of Jordan her origins were a disadvantage to her husband)”
and Papillion’s comment:
“Upon first reading this, I interpreted it as a comment on P. Sarvath's "origins" in the geographic sense. In fact, she is not Pakistan born, but Calcutta born. But as I parse the words, it seems to refer to her "origins" in the hierarchical sense, meaning (I guess) that she was not royal born. Is that how others interpret this sentence?
I'm a little confused about this, since it seems to me that some Jordanians have a bit of difficulty accepting people from outside their own country. For example, not only is P. Sarvath always referred to as Pakistani, QN is referred to as American, and these references always seem to imply some lack of acceptance, some unworthiness. I come from an immigrant nation, so I find it unfair to hold such a thing against these women.”
To try to understand both these remarks I think you have to try and understand the makeup of Jordanian society itself. Unlike Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Lebanon and Morocco, Saudi Arabia (if you consider the pre Saudi Hijaz,) Jordan is a young, new, raw country, without a tradition of old, educated, certainly moneyed if not truly aristocratic families. Their values and norms are unfortunately very ‘nouveau riche’. Jordan was a little backwater ( not much water !) without any beautiful old homes, universities, libraries, mosques, a traditional and sophisticated handicrafts. There was no electricity in the country as late as the late 1920’s. The first university was founded in the 1960’s. It is rare to find East Bank Jordanians ( as opposed to Jordanians of Palestinian, Iraqi, Syrian etc origin) who would come from families in which tertiary education for men ( never mind women) would have been an accepted fact three generations ago. Mr. Robin’s describes Princess Sarvath as being “ patrician”. Something I have heard said about her more than once. The definition of “ Patrician ” according to Chambers’ Dictionary, is someone who is an “aristocrat; of noble birth”. Princess Sarvath came from both an old aristocratic family and one which was also successful in contemporary terms: her parents, grandparents, uncles, other family members etc etc were well regarded and held important government posts in their own countries. Prince Sarvath grew up surrounded by the trappings of old wealth and modern success. She was difficult to fathom for your average Jordanian whose only contact with the sub-continent were unfortunately the migrant workers who were thronging the Arab world in search of employment. This was largely because the Jordanians were by and large unaware of what the Indian subcontinental culture was or stood for. So then the Jordanians had this “Pakistani” who didn’t fit into any mould they could understand. Wife of the Crown prince, she could have built the biggest, smartest villa, but they chose to live in a charming but old and not very large house. She could have dressed in couture clothes, but alternated between ready to wear western casual clothes or exotic saris, and drove the same car for years and years. ( Big flashy villas, big flashy latest model cars, big flashy jewelry are all the recognizable benchmarks of success in Jordan ) A European lady who worked for years with the late Queen Mother, told a friend of mine in Jordan, that Queen Zein always commented favourably on the fact that Princess Sarvath had been the only one of her daughters in law ( other than Queen Dina, who was a member of the family but had other problems, basically I think a husband who was too young) who came with her own possessions : ie her own jewelry, her own silver, her own antiques and paintings, her own staff and her own contacts. The others all had to be set up from scratch. This lady ( I think she was Dutch) said that Princess Sarvath’s mother was the only ‘in law’ whom Queen Zein used to see socially, and Prince Hassan’s home the only one of her sons’ home she would visit regularly, even to the extent of going to the children’s birthday parties. Queen Zein herself had found the transition to a limited Jordanian society difficult, coming herself from a very cultured Turkish/Egyptian Hashemite background. Maybe that is why she related to Princess Sarvath. I believe Queen Zein was quite a difficult lady. The fact that she had accepted, many years ago, that Princess Sarvath’s family was a suitable one for her young son to mix with, says a lot about how she regarded them. However, these very attributes would make Princess Sarvath difficult to deal with for many Jordanians, particularly, I would think court officials, whom from what one reads from courts worldwide, like to have people they can mold or bully into their own ways. As I write this, it occurs to me , that it says something for Princess Sarvath’s strength of character that despite everything, she kept her marriage and her health intact ( unlike many other ladies we hear of in similar positions, Princess Diana, the Duchess of York, Crown Princess of Japan and so on). But I can see that it would not make her universally popular.
From Philip Robins book:
“Hasan and his Pakistan born wife (Footnote by the author: Though herself a patrician, being the younger daughter of the country's first foreign minister, there is no doubt that in the hierarchical society of Jordan her origins were a disadvantage to her husband)”
and Papillion’s comment:
“Upon first reading this, I interpreted it as a comment on P. Sarvath's "origins" in the geographic sense. In fact, she is not Pakistan born, but Calcutta born. But as I parse the words, it seems to refer to her "origins" in the hierarchical sense, meaning (I guess) that she was not royal born. Is that how others interpret this sentence?
I'm a little confused about this, since it seems to me that some Jordanians have a bit of difficulty accepting people from outside their own country. For example, not only is P. Sarvath always referred to as Pakistani, QN is referred to as American, and these references always seem to imply some lack of acceptance, some unworthiness. I come from an immigrant nation, so I find it unfair to hold such a thing against these women.”
To try to understand both these remarks I think you have to try and understand the makeup of Jordanian society itself. Unlike Iraq, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Lebanon and Morocco, Saudi Arabia (if you consider the pre Saudi Hijaz,) Jordan is a young, new, raw country, without a tradition of old, educated, certainly moneyed if not truly aristocratic families. Their values and norms are unfortunately very ‘nouveau riche’. Jordan was a little backwater ( not much water !) without any beautiful old homes, universities, libraries, mosques, a traditional and sophisticated handicrafts. There was no electricity in the country as late as the late 1920’s. The first university was founded in the 1960’s. It is rare to find East Bank Jordanians ( as opposed to Jordanians of Palestinian, Iraqi, Syrian etc origin) who would come from families in which tertiary education for men ( never mind women) would have been an accepted fact three generations ago. Mr. Robin’s describes Princess Sarvath as being “ patrician”. Something I have heard said about her more than once. The definition of “ Patrician ” according to Chambers’ Dictionary, is someone who is an “aristocrat; of noble birth”. Princess Sarvath came from both an old aristocratic family and one which was also successful in contemporary terms: her parents, grandparents, uncles, other family members etc etc were well regarded and held important government posts in their own countries. Prince Sarvath grew up surrounded by the trappings of old wealth and modern success. She was difficult to fathom for your average Jordanian whose only contact with the sub-continent were unfortunately the migrant workers who were thronging the Arab world in search of employment. This was largely because the Jordanians were by and large unaware of what the Indian subcontinental culture was or stood for. So then the Jordanians had this “Pakistani” who didn’t fit into any mould they could understand. Wife of the Crown prince, she could have built the biggest, smartest villa, but they chose to live in a charming but old and not very large house. She could have dressed in couture clothes, but alternated between ready to wear western casual clothes or exotic saris, and drove the same car for years and years. ( Big flashy villas, big flashy latest model cars, big flashy jewelry are all the recognizable benchmarks of success in Jordan ) A European lady who worked for years with the late Queen Mother, told a friend of mine in Jordan, that Queen Zein always commented favourably on the fact that Princess Sarvath had been the only one of her daughters in law ( other than Queen Dina, who was a member of the family but had other problems, basically I think a husband who was too young) who came with her own possessions : ie her own jewelry, her own silver, her own antiques and paintings, her own staff and her own contacts. The others all had to be set up from scratch. This lady ( I think she was Dutch) said that Princess Sarvath’s mother was the only ‘in law’ whom Queen Zein used to see socially, and Prince Hassan’s home the only one of her sons’ home she would visit regularly, even to the extent of going to the children’s birthday parties. Queen Zein herself had found the transition to a limited Jordanian society difficult, coming herself from a very cultured Turkish/Egyptian Hashemite background. Maybe that is why she related to Princess Sarvath. I believe Queen Zein was quite a difficult lady. The fact that she had accepted, many years ago, that Princess Sarvath’s family was a suitable one for her young son to mix with, says a lot about how she regarded them. However, these very attributes would make Princess Sarvath difficult to deal with for many Jordanians, particularly, I would think court officials, whom from what one reads from courts worldwide, like to have people they can mold or bully into their own ways. As I write this, it occurs to me , that it says something for Princess Sarvath’s strength of character that despite everything, she kept her marriage and her health intact ( unlike many other ladies we hear of in similar positions, Princess Diana, the Duchess of York, Crown Princess of Japan and so on). But I can see that it would not make her universally popular.
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Veram98 said:
Poofh. On re-reading this,I realise that Jordanian siciety is even more confused and more shallow than I had first realised
. They are willing to kill to go to a school run by a foreigner ( actually why did a foreigner have to take the bull by the horns and kick start the Jordanian educational system ?) What were all those wonderful "(Trans)Jordanian elite and upper middles classes " doing when the Jordanian schools suffered over the board and the rich just turned their backs on the problem and send their kids out of the country ? I do hope for their sakes that when these same Jordanians find themselves in the tender care of a doctor from the sub-continent at Mayo or MD Anderson or the like they do not suffer a set back, or perhaps I hope they do Sorry, not nice, but I think there is something fundamentally sick in Jordanian society, ( I am sorry, Jordanians ) and sometimes I think they deserve what will surely be coming to them unless they buck up their ideas.
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shelley said:Sorry, not nice, but I think there is something fundamentally sick in Jordanian society, ( I am sorry, Jordanians ) and sometimes I think they deserve what will surely be coming to them unless they buck up their ideas.
Certainly not nice of me, and for that I apologise, to all the thousands of nice, good Jordanians, but I do think that the 'elite' (by the way, what constitutes 'elite' in Jordan ? Money ?) Have to rethink many of their attitudes, not least the manner in which they treat those poor despised domestics and sweat shop workers from Sri Lanka, the Phillipines and the Sub-continent. I am told that there are some terrible human rights violations going on in day to day life in so called 'normal' elitest homes in Jordan.
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I have already posted this in another thread but thought I would post this excerpt here as it touches on Prince Hassan and Princess Sarvath:
Copyright Washington Times Library Apr 19, 1999
"Though King Abdullah swiftly reshuffled the Jordanian government in favor of some liberal politicians and technocrats and reaffirmed his commitment to his deceased father's policies, the political ramifications of the sudden change of succession to the throne of Washington's strategic ally remain an open question. Stunned by King Hussein's unexpected dismissal of his brother Hassan, trained as crown prince and successor for 34 years and well regarded in the Arab world, some Arabs see the last-minute switch as an American-inspired ploy originally designed to propel Queen Noor's son Hamzeh, 18, subsequently elevated to crown prince, directly onto the throne. Jordanians were equally shocked by the trumped-up charges against Hassan, whose wife Princess Sarvath was allegedly redecorating the palace when a kitchen was renovated for the visit of Germany's President Roman Herzog traveling with his native cook......"
Copyright Washington Times Library Apr 19, 1999
"Though King Abdullah swiftly reshuffled the Jordanian government in favor of some liberal politicians and technocrats and reaffirmed his commitment to his deceased father's policies, the political ramifications of the sudden change of succession to the throne of Washington's strategic ally remain an open question. Stunned by King Hussein's unexpected dismissal of his brother Hassan, trained as crown prince and successor for 34 years and well regarded in the Arab world, some Arabs see the last-minute switch as an American-inspired ploy originally designed to propel Queen Noor's son Hamzeh, 18, subsequently elevated to crown prince, directly onto the throne. Jordanians were equally shocked by the trumped-up charges against Hassan, whose wife Princess Sarvath was allegedly redecorating the palace when a kitchen was renovated for the visit of Germany's President Roman Herzog traveling with his native cook......"
What I find interesting about this article is that in it P. Sarvath is described as "personable" and "popular," and, less than two months later, I guess she lost her charm and charisma in some sudden total character reversal and became the Crown Princess from hell.
Something stinks to high heaven.
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This is apparent to any remotely perceptive Western visitor to Jordan. Sometimes the effect is even unwittingly comical, albeit verging on sad. During my first visit to Jordan, within a couple days of my arrival, I was unexpectedly invited to attend the closing ceremony of the Arab Children's Congress at the Royal Cultural Centre. Come to think of it, probably the only reason I was invited is because I am a Westerner, obvious from my appearance. Anyway, for those who may not know, this is usually QN's event, but she had a recital to attend that same night, so she deputized P. Alia (Faisal). Almost more fascinating to me than the closing ceremony itself was the people watching. I was one of very few Westerners in attendance, but many of the other women there were certainly trying to look Western. . .lots of bleach in the hair, some cropped noses, stylish but slightly-off-the-mark Western clothing, heavy accessorizing, very theatrical makeup. To my eyes, there was something slightly drag queenish about the overall effect, but it made me a little sad, too. Most of these women were quite attractive underneath all that and would probably look much more beautiful if they just worked with their natural assets.shelley said:
I'm trying, Shelley, I'm trying.
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I'm trying not to be too judgmental, but this view really offends my sensibilities, especially if it is coming from the upper middle and elite classes of society which, one would think, should be better educated and more informed and possibly better traveled. Wherever on the "outsider" continuum one might land--whether it's alongside P. Sarvath or in the direction of the Westerners--it's an uncomfortable situation. Who wants to be either loathed or liked on the basis of country of origin, skin color, or some other factor over which one has no control?! No one I know.shelley said:On rereading this, it makes me realise that Jordanian 'society'is even more shallow and topsy turvy than I realised. I wonder why so many of these
" Jordanian elite and upper middles classes " are willing to entrust their education to a school run by a foreigner. Actually, why did it take a foreigner to kick start education in Jordan ? The same Jordanians werefor years satisfied with a substandard local education and the very rich just sent their kids out of the country.
Hopefully, these views will evolve in the right direction, soon I hope.I think this is one of the few journalists from that era who got it right. P. Hassan is well regarded, and the charges against the couple were trumped up. I, for one, am glad she chose those terms to describe what happened to these two rather than just accept the reasons for the succession change that were stated at the time.shelley said:
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Well there are many different individuals out there within multiple countries who would probably prefer a ruler and/or the prior’s spouse to be fully or part of the same ethnic origin as the majority of themselves. This usually has to do with nationalism (especially derived from “colonials and natives” themed conflicts from the past). For example, many Indians were against Sonia Gandhi (the now deceased Indira Gandhi’s daughter-in-law), in becoming the next prime minister of the country. Their ideology was derived from the idea that Sonia is (a) of European descent and (b) Catholic i.e. not of Indian descent and not Hindu or Sikh. If she ever won the elections and succeeded in ruling over the country, her status of power would remind most of the population of British rule over the sub-continent (considering that individual British troops/colonists were of European descent and Christian).Veram98 said:
It seems as though it is partly similar yet partially different at the same time, regarding Princess Sarvath’s case (if it is indeed true that the majority of the Jordanian upper and upper middle class and/or citizens in general, would dislike the idea of a woman of South Asian descent in becoming their Queen). Considering that there is history of Arab colonialism (especially Iraqi and Syrian) within the Indian sub-continent, individuals of Middle Eastern descent probably have a superiority complex due to the roles of some of their ancestors as being imperialists, especially in regards to the former Hindustan. So considering that history speaks of some Arabs as once ruling over India, if princess Sarvath ever became Queen then the roles would be reversed and from a given perspective, “the former rulers” would now be “ruled over” by their “former colony” (which would make them feel as if they were in a subordinate position).
Since European colonialism is somewhat more recent (thus some Westerners of European descent hold a greater amount of power in the world today whether socially, economically or politically) and individual Middle Easterners never succeeded in ruling over the UK for example, perhaps there is a little more respect towards “Westerners” (especially regarding elites), even more so if they convert to Islam on the part of some Jordanians (as well as some people who live in other Middle Eastern countries or not) – although this was not true 40-50 years ago.
And finally, the last time I checked many Jordanian citizens themselves aren’t very well off socially and economically (although some most definitely are), and off course you would think that much of the Jordanian public would actually appreciate the fact that these individuals of Pakistani descent are even contributing to their country socially and economically in the first place. They could always just get up and leave by taking their work/business elsewhere. And btw, I have a few relatives who live in Pakistan who are pretty darn well off (also, one of my grandfathers was a criminal lawyer and two of my great grandfathers were a superintendent police commissioner and a judge, while living in the prior country – I’m not trying to brag or anything, but I simply wanted to contradict stereotypes regarding the position of “all” Pakistanis, regardless of the country that they live and/or work in).
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P.S. The last time I checked, Islam demolished the caste system since everyone is considered to be equal regardless of gender, ethnicity, culture, race, status or class etc. (among a few things). Due to this fact, I find the alleged behaviour on the part of the supposed vast Jordanian populace spoken about in my prior post, as pretty disappointing (not to say that everyone whose of Jordanian descent and/or lives in the country is Muslim, or that any other religion doesn't believe in some or all of the same factors that I mentioned above as well. I could also say the same for individuals of any other ethnicity, culture and/or religion and live in any other country, who also discriminate a person through that fashion.
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With King Hussein Ill, His Brother Makes a Trial Run
The Los Angeles Times
By Rebecca Trounson
November 2, 1998
He is his brother's protege, top advisor and closest friend.
For 33 years, since King Hussein of Jordan tapped him as official successor, Crown Prince Hassan has played the understudy, learning the part but rarely getting the chance to exercise it.
But Hassan is now--reluctantly--in the midst of a royal trial run, acting as regent while his beloved older brother undergoes treatment for lymphatic cancer in the United States. The brothers consult regularly, but Hassan is formally running the country, as he has since Hussein began chemotherapy at Minnesota's Mayo Clinic in July.
Now, with the 62-year-old monarch's gaunt, gutsy appearance last month at the Wye Plantation summit again fueling speculation about succession, the 51-year-old Hassan is finding himself in the unwelcome glare of public and media attention, weary of the unending rumors about Hussein's health and the inevitable, sometimes unflattering comparisons that follow.
Adding to the pressures, the ailing king's role at the Mideast peace talks and his eloquent speech afterward at the White House showcased the very qualities--charisma, personal warmth and a sure, natural style of leadership--that the brainy, thoughtful Hassan is said to lack.
And frankly, the prince said in a recent interview, he finds the endless discussion of their differences a bit exasperating, especially given his years of working closely with his brother.
"One needs to look at the track record over three decades," he said. "We have what some have called a unique partnership. And if certain qualities exist, I believe they have complemented each other."
Added one longtime associate: "He knows he can never be exactly like Hussein. But so what? He asks what are they supposed to be anyway, a family of clones?"
They are far from it, despite a bedrock of shared political values and an obvious affection and admiration for each other. Hussein is instinctive, patient, often wise, a man who seems equally at home in a Bedouin tent or a summit of world leaders.
Hassan is driven, detail-oriented and impatient, especially with what he sees as incompetence. Despite years of effort to develop something akin to his brother's easy manner, he is more comfortable expounding his theories on the "arc of instability" or "politics over policy" with intellectual elites than discussing everyday problems with the public.
Intellectual Gifts Said to Suit Prince for Rule
At the same time, several politicians and analysts here, speaking privately, say that while they believe and hope that the king will resume the throne at the end of his treatment, Hassan's intellectual gifts and interests are well suited to leading Jordan in the future.
"He's a modern man, well educated and very interested in issues like the economy," a prominent academic said of the prince. "That's a major plus for Jordan. He would be likely to focus much more on technology, education, infrastructure and development."
He also has spent more than three decades getting ready for the job. "He is unusually well prepared, especially when you think about the fact that there is not a tradition in the Middle East of leaders training and preparing their No. 2s," a Western diplomat said.
Since the middle of July, when the king began his medical treatment, the crown prince has acted as regent, a longer period than ever before. During the interview and an earlier dinner at his home in the royal palace compound in Amman, Hassan spoke of some of the strains involved in filling in for his brother during a period of disappointment among Jordanians over the slow pace of regional peace and a continuing economic recession in the country, along with widespread worry about the king.
"It's been a difficult few months," he said. "Every day, I've tried not only to reassure Jordanians over his majesty's health but remind them that we all have to live up to his expectations for a stable Jordan."
The crown prince described his relationship with the king as one of give and take, in which each respects the other's views. But they have different roles, he said.
"The king has the stature and standing of a head of state with years of experience," he said. "Jordan is synonymous all over the world with King Hussein." His own role, he said, has involved working "closer to the kitchen" of day-to-day business and often acting as a trouble-shooter, a background that has served him well in recent months.
According to accounts from the king's doctors and his family, Hussein is responding well to treatment and may be able to return to Jordan soon, perhaps this month. The Jordanian government and the State Department recently denied an Israeli newspaper account that quoted U.S. officials as saying the king's condition was dire.
But, as if to prepare his subjects, Hussein himself has alluded several times to the possibility of his passing, and the prospect is unsettling for many in Jordan, where a majority of the nation's 4 million people has never known another leader. The king has ruled his nation for 46 years, and Jordanians describe him in affectionate, often deeply personal tones.
"We have been depressed and upset ever since we heard the king was sick," said Saleh Mohammed Omari, a 60-year-old bus driver. "He is like our family."
In contrast, Hassan is widely respected but seems to lack the king's ability to connect with the people. "He's very smart," said Khaled Hammad, a 34-year-old switchboard operator in Amman, the capital. "We trust him, but we don't really feel like we know him."
The prince is a man of keen, searching intellect who has founded such groups as Jordan's Royal Scientific Society and the Arab Thought Forum, the latter a place for intellectuals and academics to meet policymakers. But he also can be playful, especially with his family. Hassan, who is married to Pakistani-born Princess Sarvath, with whom he has four children, recently delighted his 2-year-old grandson--and surprised staff members--by putting the boy in the fountain outside his home, then jumping in with him.
Hassan Is a Fan of John Wayne Movies
Like his brother, Hassan hates ostentation. He drives himself around town and was looking forward one recent night to a family dinner of macaroni and cheese, until an unexpected guest necessitated a change of menu. A fan of John Wayne movies, the prince relishes a memory of once meeting the actor. Wayne brought him quickly down to earth, telling the prince that he seemed like "a pretty decent guy--for a royal."
A man who rises before 6 a.m. and works regularly until midnight, Hassan is famously demanding of those around him. "People tend to be on edge around him," said one former aide. "You want to be very careful not to display any sign of ignorance, or he'll never let you forget it."
And when he invites staffers or relatives to join in his rigorous brands of exercise--polo, taekwondo or skipping rope--"everyone tends to disappear," the aide said.
Hassan and Hussein share the same basic political views and hopes for their country. Both are moderates who favor a strong relationship with the United States and are firmly committed to peace in their troubled region. In 1994, the kingdom became the second Arab country, after Egypt, to sign a peace treaty with Israel. And Hussein has held fast to the pact, despite opposition from many Jordanians and disappointment here that it has not produced the economic benefits that were expected in Jordan.
Hassan also advocates liberalizing and reforming the struggling economy and continuing his brother's cautious steps toward democracy.
The distinctions between them are more personal than political, the product partly of Hussein's determination that Hassan receive the formal education and years of preparation for leadership that the king never had.
Hussein was declared king in 1952, when he was 16, not long after his grandfather, King Abdullah, was shot to death at his side on a visit to Jerusalem's Al Aqsa mosque. Abdullah's son, Talal, the father of Hussein and Hassan, initially was crowned king but was dethroned a year later because of schizophrenia. He was sent for medical treatment outside Jordan and died in 1972.
Hassan was only 5 when Hussein assumed the throne. The teenage king quickly took charge of his brother's upbringing and education, sending him to Harrow in England and then on to Christ Church College at Oxford University, where Hassan received bachelor's and master's degrees in Oriental studies. Along the way, Hassan added fluency in English and French to his Arabic and studied Hebrew, German and Turkish.
The Los Angeles Times
By Rebecca Trounson
November 2, 1998
He is his brother's protege, top advisor and closest friend.
For 33 years, since King Hussein of Jordan tapped him as official successor, Crown Prince Hassan has played the understudy, learning the part but rarely getting the chance to exercise it.
But Hassan is now--reluctantly--in the midst of a royal trial run, acting as regent while his beloved older brother undergoes treatment for lymphatic cancer in the United States. The brothers consult regularly, but Hassan is formally running the country, as he has since Hussein began chemotherapy at Minnesota's Mayo Clinic in July.
Now, with the 62-year-old monarch's gaunt, gutsy appearance last month at the Wye Plantation summit again fueling speculation about succession, the 51-year-old Hassan is finding himself in the unwelcome glare of public and media attention, weary of the unending rumors about Hussein's health and the inevitable, sometimes unflattering comparisons that follow.
Adding to the pressures, the ailing king's role at the Mideast peace talks and his eloquent speech afterward at the White House showcased the very qualities--charisma, personal warmth and a sure, natural style of leadership--that the brainy, thoughtful Hassan is said to lack.
And frankly, the prince said in a recent interview, he finds the endless discussion of their differences a bit exasperating, especially given his years of working closely with his brother.
"One needs to look at the track record over three decades," he said. "We have what some have called a unique partnership. And if certain qualities exist, I believe they have complemented each other."
Added one longtime associate: "He knows he can never be exactly like Hussein. But so what? He asks what are they supposed to be anyway, a family of clones?"
They are far from it, despite a bedrock of shared political values and an obvious affection and admiration for each other. Hussein is instinctive, patient, often wise, a man who seems equally at home in a Bedouin tent or a summit of world leaders.
Hassan is driven, detail-oriented and impatient, especially with what he sees as incompetence. Despite years of effort to develop something akin to his brother's easy manner, he is more comfortable expounding his theories on the "arc of instability" or "politics over policy" with intellectual elites than discussing everyday problems with the public.
Intellectual Gifts Said to Suit Prince for Rule
At the same time, several politicians and analysts here, speaking privately, say that while they believe and hope that the king will resume the throne at the end of his treatment, Hassan's intellectual gifts and interests are well suited to leading Jordan in the future.
"He's a modern man, well educated and very interested in issues like the economy," a prominent academic said of the prince. "That's a major plus for Jordan. He would be likely to focus much more on technology, education, infrastructure and development."
He also has spent more than three decades getting ready for the job. "He is unusually well prepared, especially when you think about the fact that there is not a tradition in the Middle East of leaders training and preparing their No. 2s," a Western diplomat said.
Since the middle of July, when the king began his medical treatment, the crown prince has acted as regent, a longer period than ever before. During the interview and an earlier dinner at his home in the royal palace compound in Amman, Hassan spoke of some of the strains involved in filling in for his brother during a period of disappointment among Jordanians over the slow pace of regional peace and a continuing economic recession in the country, along with widespread worry about the king.
"It's been a difficult few months," he said. "Every day, I've tried not only to reassure Jordanians over his majesty's health but remind them that we all have to live up to his expectations for a stable Jordan."
The crown prince described his relationship with the king as one of give and take, in which each respects the other's views. But they have different roles, he said.
"The king has the stature and standing of a head of state with years of experience," he said. "Jordan is synonymous all over the world with King Hussein." His own role, he said, has involved working "closer to the kitchen" of day-to-day business and often acting as a trouble-shooter, a background that has served him well in recent months.
According to accounts from the king's doctors and his family, Hussein is responding well to treatment and may be able to return to Jordan soon, perhaps this month. The Jordanian government and the State Department recently denied an Israeli newspaper account that quoted U.S. officials as saying the king's condition was dire.
But, as if to prepare his subjects, Hussein himself has alluded several times to the possibility of his passing, and the prospect is unsettling for many in Jordan, where a majority of the nation's 4 million people has never known another leader. The king has ruled his nation for 46 years, and Jordanians describe him in affectionate, often deeply personal tones.
"We have been depressed and upset ever since we heard the king was sick," said Saleh Mohammed Omari, a 60-year-old bus driver. "He is like our family."
In contrast, Hassan is widely respected but seems to lack the king's ability to connect with the people. "He's very smart," said Khaled Hammad, a 34-year-old switchboard operator in Amman, the capital. "We trust him, but we don't really feel like we know him."
The prince is a man of keen, searching intellect who has founded such groups as Jordan's Royal Scientific Society and the Arab Thought Forum, the latter a place for intellectuals and academics to meet policymakers. But he also can be playful, especially with his family. Hassan, who is married to Pakistani-born Princess Sarvath, with whom he has four children, recently delighted his 2-year-old grandson--and surprised staff members--by putting the boy in the fountain outside his home, then jumping in with him.
Hassan Is a Fan of John Wayne Movies
Like his brother, Hassan hates ostentation. He drives himself around town and was looking forward one recent night to a family dinner of macaroni and cheese, until an unexpected guest necessitated a change of menu. A fan of John Wayne movies, the prince relishes a memory of once meeting the actor. Wayne brought him quickly down to earth, telling the prince that he seemed like "a pretty decent guy--for a royal."
A man who rises before 6 a.m. and works regularly until midnight, Hassan is famously demanding of those around him. "People tend to be on edge around him," said one former aide. "You want to be very careful not to display any sign of ignorance, or he'll never let you forget it."
And when he invites staffers or relatives to join in his rigorous brands of exercise--polo, taekwondo or skipping rope--"everyone tends to disappear," the aide said.
Hassan and Hussein share the same basic political views and hopes for their country. Both are moderates who favor a strong relationship with the United States and are firmly committed to peace in their troubled region. In 1994, the kingdom became the second Arab country, after Egypt, to sign a peace treaty with Israel. And Hussein has held fast to the pact, despite opposition from many Jordanians and disappointment here that it has not produced the economic benefits that were expected in Jordan.
Hassan also advocates liberalizing and reforming the struggling economy and continuing his brother's cautious steps toward democracy.
The distinctions between them are more personal than political, the product partly of Hussein's determination that Hassan receive the formal education and years of preparation for leadership that the king never had.
Hussein was declared king in 1952, when he was 16, not long after his grandfather, King Abdullah, was shot to death at his side on a visit to Jerusalem's Al Aqsa mosque. Abdullah's son, Talal, the father of Hussein and Hassan, initially was crowned king but was dethroned a year later because of schizophrenia. He was sent for medical treatment outside Jordan and died in 1972.
Hassan was only 5 when Hussein assumed the throne. The teenage king quickly took charge of his brother's upbringing and education, sending him to Harrow in England and then on to Christ Church College at Oxford University, where Hassan received bachelor's and master's degrees in Oriental studies. Along the way, Hassan added fluency in English and French to his Arabic and studied Hebrew, German and Turkish.
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Continued from previous post:
Succession Bypasses Others in Royal Family
In 1965, Hussein amended the constitution to change the rules of succession, and on Hassan's 18th birthday, he named the prince his heir, bypassing another brother, Mohammed. The king also skipped over his own first two sons, who were considered ineligible for the throne because their mother, the second of Hussein's four wives, was British.
Hussein later had three more sons, but despite talk of a possible battle over the succession, he has never varied from his designation of Hassan as his heir apparent. In August, during his medical treatment in the United States, he again declared that Hassan would succeed him.
Over the years, particularly after an earlier bout with cancer in 1992, Hussein has turned over more and more responsibility to the prince. Hassan has long been responsible for overseeing the Jordanian economy, rebuilding it after a disastrous loss to Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, which cost Hussein the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Hassan was also given the massive task of trying to settle the thousands of Palestinian refugees who flooded across the border into Jordan after that conflict.
It would be hard to imagine a more loyal second in command. In fact, many in Jordan believe that one of the most difficult aspects for Hassan in eventually assuming the throne is that he will have to do it without the kind of strong, selfless support that his brother has received from him.
But some analysts point out that unlike Hussein's own lonely initial period of leadership, the small, close-knit Jordanian royal family today boasts a number of princes, from the king's and crown prince's young sons to older uncles, who could pull together to support Hassan in running the affairs of state, especially at first.
That could prove difficult, whenever it occurs. Some Jordanians worry that the crown prince will not be able to command the loyalty of the nation's key communities, including major Bedouin tribes, Islamic fundamentalist opposition groups, the army, and Palestinian refugees and their descendants.
Monarch, Heir Critical of Slow Pace of Peace
Outside Jordan, Hassan's relationship with the Palestinians and their leadership is strong. Like his brother, the prince has been sharply critical of the slow pace of peace between the Israelis and Palestinians. But inside the country, many Palestinians say they don't trust him and fear his ascension, apparently remembering that he helped urge his brother to use the army in 1970 to put down what both regarded as a threat to Hashemite rule from the Palestine Liberation Organization. Hassan says he does not understand the continuing distrust.
But others argue that inside and outside this strategically located nation there are powerful interests aimed at keeping Jordan stable.
"The core of the main Jordanian families and tribes who are deeply entrenched in the bureaucracy and the military have a vested interest in the preservation of their political patrimony," said Asher Susser, a Middle East studies professor at Tel Aviv University and an expert on Jordan. "Their interest is in stability."
Succession Bypasses Others in Royal Family
In 1965, Hussein amended the constitution to change the rules of succession, and on Hassan's 18th birthday, he named the prince his heir, bypassing another brother, Mohammed. The king also skipped over his own first two sons, who were considered ineligible for the throne because their mother, the second of Hussein's four wives, was British.
Hussein later had three more sons, but despite talk of a possible battle over the succession, he has never varied from his designation of Hassan as his heir apparent. In August, during his medical treatment in the United States, he again declared that Hassan would succeed him.
Over the years, particularly after an earlier bout with cancer in 1992, Hussein has turned over more and more responsibility to the prince. Hassan has long been responsible for overseeing the Jordanian economy, rebuilding it after a disastrous loss to Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, which cost Hussein the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Hassan was also given the massive task of trying to settle the thousands of Palestinian refugees who flooded across the border into Jordan after that conflict.
It would be hard to imagine a more loyal second in command. In fact, many in Jordan believe that one of the most difficult aspects for Hassan in eventually assuming the throne is that he will have to do it without the kind of strong, selfless support that his brother has received from him.
But some analysts point out that unlike Hussein's own lonely initial period of leadership, the small, close-knit Jordanian royal family today boasts a number of princes, from the king's and crown prince's young sons to older uncles, who could pull together to support Hassan in running the affairs of state, especially at first.
That could prove difficult, whenever it occurs. Some Jordanians worry that the crown prince will not be able to command the loyalty of the nation's key communities, including major Bedouin tribes, Islamic fundamentalist opposition groups, the army, and Palestinian refugees and their descendants.
Monarch, Heir Critical of Slow Pace of Peace
Outside Jordan, Hassan's relationship with the Palestinians and their leadership is strong. Like his brother, the prince has been sharply critical of the slow pace of peace between the Israelis and Palestinians. But inside the country, many Palestinians say they don't trust him and fear his ascension, apparently remembering that he helped urge his brother to use the army in 1970 to put down what both regarded as a threat to Hashemite rule from the Palestine Liberation Organization. Hassan says he does not understand the continuing distrust.
But others argue that inside and outside this strategically located nation there are powerful interests aimed at keeping Jordan stable.
"The core of the main Jordanian families and tribes who are deeply entrenched in the bureaucracy and the military have a vested interest in the preservation of their political patrimony," said Asher Susser, a Middle East studies professor at Tel Aviv University and an expert on Jordan. "Their interest is in stability."
All true. But I wonder, if Mr. Morton were still in Jordan today, whether he would find P. Hassan's arrivals any more timely. When I was working in Jordan last fall, a local friend of mine told me that it still takes P. Hassan a long time to get from point A to point B in Jordan, for he remains a recognizable face and a revered person. So people stop him, want to talk with him, show him their new baby, offer him tea and a meal, give him gifts, etc. Apparently, he is an agreeable sort and often goes along with it, even recognizing many of these people as sons and/or daughters of so-and-so. It's almost as though he inhabits a small village when he is in Jordan. It's remarkable to me.
I just discovered something interesting, something that makes me want to question a whole lot of what I read, even in the mainstream press. All three of the following succession-era excerpts appeared in Newsweek articles either authored or co-authored by a writer named Joseph Contreras.
In this first article, published before the succession change, it is assumed C.P. Hassan will succeed KH. QN is depicted as unpopular within Jordan and P. Sarvath as liked by Jordanians for living modestly. In addition, the author appears to understand that, constitutionally, C.P. Hassan could name only a brother or a son his heir.
The Day After
By Joseph Contreras
August 10, 1998
Managing this difficult but critical relationship likely will fall to the king's youngest brother, Crown Prince Hassan, who has been designated heir for 33 years.
Hassan's own succession may be smooth, but dynastic intrigues already are apparent. The Constitution clearly gives Hassan's son, Rashid, 19, the inside track as crown prince to his father should Hassan take over. But King Hussein has spoken vaguely for several years about "democratizing" the succession process, and has installed a secret panel of family elders and two close confidants to study the issue. That has provoked speculation that he may want the crown eventually to revert to Hamzah, 18, his eldest son by his fourth wife, the American-born Queen Noor. Relations between Noor and Hassan's wife, Princess Sarvath, are said to be cool. "Jordan isn't big enough for two queens," says one Western diplomat.
"It's clear Hamzah is being groomed for bigger and better things," says one senior foreign diplomat in Amman. Last year Noor took Hamzah as her escort to the funeral of Princess Diana. That alone sharply raised his profile. Though never very popular in traditional Jordanian society, Noor has become a regular in the pages of Europe's royal-watching picture magazines. The former Lisa Halaby, a Princeton alumna, mingles easily with the glitterati. Guests at the
anniversary bash she and the king held outside London last June included Prince Charles and the King of Spain, Harrison Ford and Barbara Walters. Last month Noor took Diana's place as spokesperson for the Landmine Survivors Network.
Princess Sarvath is less glamorous but equally strong-minded. She has focused on improving the kingdom's education system and is the patroness of a prep school that sends graduates to British universities. The daughter of a Pakistani foreign minister, she met the crown prince at Oxford. Jordanians like her modest lifestyle.
The sons of the two women are now seen as rivals.
_________________________________________________
In this second article, written just six months later and published the day after KH's death, P. Sarvath has suddenly become unpopular and imperious.
A Lion in Winter
By Joseph Contreras and Christopher Dickey
February 8, 1999
Before he left, Hussein fired his 51-year-old brother, Hassan, who had served him as crown prince for 34 years.
What saddened many people even more was the letter to Hassan that the king made public at the same time. Handwritten, disjointed and 14 pages long, it accused Hassan of meddling with the Army and government and inspiring ``slandering and falsehoods'' about the king's fourth wife, Queen Noor, and their four children. The inner rivalries of the Hashemite dynasty had never been so glaringly exposed.
Under the Constitution, if Hassan became king, the crown would pass to his own son, Prince Rashid, now 19. Hassan would not agree to a change. Sources say his wife, Princess Sarvath, helped persuade him not to give in.
Hassan was undercut, unintentionally, by his unpopular wife, the Pakistani-born Sarvath, who made no secret of her intention to redecorate the palace when her husband became king. "The king thought Sarvath was acting like a queen," says a former prime minister who supported Hassan.
_________________________________________________
And, then, just four or five months after the second article, QN seems to have lost all her popularity.
Crowning Indignities
By Joseph Contreras
June 28, 1999
King Hussein never persuaded most of his subjects that Queen Noor, 47, his American-born wife of 21 years, was much better than a privileged guest. In the four months since the king's death from lymphoma, the widow's influence has shriveled away.
But Noor was conspicuously absent at Abdullah's formal coronation two weeks ago. The speed of her eclipse caught many Jordanians by surprise. "It's something we expected, but maybe we didn't expect it so soon and so publicly," says one prominent political scientist. "People are longing to bury the past. And Noor, it seems, is part of the past."
Noor could only dream of such a break. No matter how hard she tried, she never won more than grudging acceptance from her subjects. Most ordinary Jordanians regarded her as "the king's wife--not their queen," in the words of a family friend. Noor appeared to be gaining some genuine popularity at last as Hussein fought his losing battle against cancer. Jordanians respected the devotion she showed to their beloved king throughout his five-month hospitalization in America. As soon as the king was dead, however, the public shifted its loyalty to his designated heir, Abdullah. Noor was effectively forgotten. "The struggle between them has been going on for a long time," says a political scientist. "Conditions are almost totally against her." All four of Noor's children skipped the coronation. Hamzah was said to be preparing for exams at Sandhurst, the British military academy. The other three were with their mother in the United States while she made a series of public appearances. Her spokeswoman says the royal travel schedule was finalized last month after Abdullah told Noor his coronation would be private and low-key; by the time the queen learned otherwise, it was too late to revise her plans.
Rumors ran wild in Amman. People asked why Hamzah couldn't have done his studying on the five-hour flight home from England. Abdullah has named Hamzah as his crown prince, in obedience to their father's dying wish. Nevertheless, the new king has a son of his own, 4-year-old Prince Hussein. There's nothing to keep the monarch from rescinding his half-brother's right of succession--just as there was nothing to keep King Hussein from doing the same to Hassan.
In this first article, published before the succession change, it is assumed C.P. Hassan will succeed KH. QN is depicted as unpopular within Jordan and P. Sarvath as liked by Jordanians for living modestly. In addition, the author appears to understand that, constitutionally, C.P. Hassan could name only a brother or a son his heir.
The Day After
By Joseph Contreras
August 10, 1998
Managing this difficult but critical relationship likely will fall to the king's youngest brother, Crown Prince Hassan, who has been designated heir for 33 years.
Hassan's own succession may be smooth, but dynastic intrigues already are apparent. The Constitution clearly gives Hassan's son, Rashid, 19, the inside track as crown prince to his father should Hassan take over. But King Hussein has spoken vaguely for several years about "democratizing" the succession process, and has installed a secret panel of family elders and two close confidants to study the issue. That has provoked speculation that he may want the crown eventually to revert to Hamzah, 18, his eldest son by his fourth wife, the American-born Queen Noor. Relations between Noor and Hassan's wife, Princess Sarvath, are said to be cool. "Jordan isn't big enough for two queens," says one Western diplomat.
"It's clear Hamzah is being groomed for bigger and better things," says one senior foreign diplomat in Amman. Last year Noor took Hamzah as her escort to the funeral of Princess Diana. That alone sharply raised his profile. Though never very popular in traditional Jordanian society, Noor has become a regular in the pages of Europe's royal-watching picture magazines. The former Lisa Halaby, a Princeton alumna, mingles easily with the glitterati. Guests at the
anniversary bash she and the king held outside London last June included Prince Charles and the King of Spain, Harrison Ford and Barbara Walters. Last month Noor took Diana's place as spokesperson for the Landmine Survivors Network.
Princess Sarvath is less glamorous but equally strong-minded. She has focused on improving the kingdom's education system and is the patroness of a prep school that sends graduates to British universities. The daughter of a Pakistani foreign minister, she met the crown prince at Oxford. Jordanians like her modest lifestyle.
The sons of the two women are now seen as rivals.
_________________________________________________
In this second article, written just six months later and published the day after KH's death, P. Sarvath has suddenly become unpopular and imperious.
A Lion in Winter
By Joseph Contreras and Christopher Dickey
February 8, 1999
Before he left, Hussein fired his 51-year-old brother, Hassan, who had served him as crown prince for 34 years.
What saddened many people even more was the letter to Hassan that the king made public at the same time. Handwritten, disjointed and 14 pages long, it accused Hassan of meddling with the Army and government and inspiring ``slandering and falsehoods'' about the king's fourth wife, Queen Noor, and their four children. The inner rivalries of the Hashemite dynasty had never been so glaringly exposed.
Under the Constitution, if Hassan became king, the crown would pass to his own son, Prince Rashid, now 19. Hassan would not agree to a change. Sources say his wife, Princess Sarvath, helped persuade him not to give in.
Hassan was undercut, unintentionally, by his unpopular wife, the Pakistani-born Sarvath, who made no secret of her intention to redecorate the palace when her husband became king. "The king thought Sarvath was acting like a queen," says a former prime minister who supported Hassan.
_________________________________________________
And, then, just four or five months after the second article, QN seems to have lost all her popularity.
Crowning Indignities
By Joseph Contreras
June 28, 1999
King Hussein never persuaded most of his subjects that Queen Noor, 47, his American-born wife of 21 years, was much better than a privileged guest. In the four months since the king's death from lymphoma, the widow's influence has shriveled away.
But Noor was conspicuously absent at Abdullah's formal coronation two weeks ago. The speed of her eclipse caught many Jordanians by surprise. "It's something we expected, but maybe we didn't expect it so soon and so publicly," says one prominent political scientist. "People are longing to bury the past. And Noor, it seems, is part of the past."
Noor could only dream of such a break. No matter how hard she tried, she never won more than grudging acceptance from her subjects. Most ordinary Jordanians regarded her as "the king's wife--not their queen," in the words of a family friend. Noor appeared to be gaining some genuine popularity at last as Hussein fought his losing battle against cancer. Jordanians respected the devotion she showed to their beloved king throughout his five-month hospitalization in America. As soon as the king was dead, however, the public shifted its loyalty to his designated heir, Abdullah. Noor was effectively forgotten. "The struggle between them has been going on for a long time," says a political scientist. "Conditions are almost totally against her." All four of Noor's children skipped the coronation. Hamzah was said to be preparing for exams at Sandhurst, the British military academy. The other three were with their mother in the United States while she made a series of public appearances. Her spokeswoman says the royal travel schedule was finalized last month after Abdullah told Noor his coronation would be private and low-key; by the time the queen learned otherwise, it was too late to revise her plans.
Rumors ran wild in Amman. People asked why Hamzah couldn't have done his studying on the five-hour flight home from England. Abdullah has named Hamzah as his crown prince, in obedience to their father's dying wish. Nevertheless, the new king has a son of his own, 4-year-old Prince Hussein. There's nothing to keep the monarch from rescinding his half-brother's right of succession--just as there was nothing to keep King Hussein from doing the same to Hassan.
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Roshanah
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I don't think the Family would have had to relinquish power no even it it's smallest measurement. there are many Kingdoms today where they have absolute Monarchies and are indeed examples of Humanitarianism.
I agree that KA does seem to be ruling wiht an inferiority complex. I also ask another question, what KA (then CPA) told King Hussein about what PHassan 'was supposedly doing' was it the truth? or did he do so in order to secure his succession to the throne? There are friends of mine in Jordan who say they've discounted what KA told his father with regards to P Hasssan. No offence but although he was quoted saying that he didn't want to become King but several years down the line , his actions in places suggest otherwise.
I don't want to start an argument, I only want to ask a question that has been in my mind for a few years.
I agree that KA does seem to be ruling wiht an inferiority complex. I also ask another question, what KA (then CPA) told King Hussein about what PHassan 'was supposedly doing' was it the truth? or did he do so in order to secure his succession to the throne? There are friends of mine in Jordan who say they've discounted what KA told his father with regards to P Hasssan. No offence but although he was quoted saying that he didn't want to become King but several years down the line , his actions in places suggest otherwise.
I don't want to start an argument, I only want to ask a question that has been in my mind for a few years.
papillon said:
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No, it wasn't. And, yes, people did what they felt they needed to do to advance their own positions. This has been fairly well documented on this forum and others. I don't really want to have to explain it all again, but read some of the thread histories. This is a very old discussion by now for a number of us.Roshanah said:
Roshanah
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I wasn't asking that you explain the aforementioned topic again, nor was I inferring it. I had but as this forum is entitles: Did KH make The "Right" Succession Decision? one obviously thought that the incident of What KA told his Father within the matter of the Succesion could be discussed. Thereby clarifying certain queries.
As you put it, "This is a very old discussion by now for a number of us," as the matter been cleared up I shan't bring up the "old discussion" which irritated you so.
Thereby clarifying certain queries.As you put it, "This is a very old discussion by now for a number of us," as the matter been cleared up I shan't bring up the "old discussion" which irritated you so.
papillon said:
Little_star
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I think Abdullah has tried his best since becoming King but he does sometimes seem inexperienced. However it's important to remember that he was never expected to be king He was able to lead quite a "carefree" life, to a certain degree knowing that he didn't have the prospect of being King. Moreover the Middle East has been pushed to the forefront of international politics because of September 11th, the farcical "War on Terror",the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the probable War on Iran.
Undoubtedly Prince Hassan, if he had become King, would have been equipped with the knowledge and experience to deal with these issues. Howeover it's pure speculation as to whether he would have made a "better" King.
Undoubtedly Prince Hassan, if he had become King, would have been equipped with the knowledge and experience to deal with these issues. Howeover it's pure speculation as to whether he would have made a "better" King.
Little_star said:
Of course it is speculation on who would have been better at the job,and no one has a crystal ball, but maybe P. Hassan would not have felt the need to assert himself in such an obvious way. I think less time and money would have been spent on aquiring the trappings of majesty ie new planes and yachts and houses,and there could have been a more seemless getting on with the work in hand. ( Despite the rumours, now totally discredited within Jordan, about his wife redecorating palaces etc. I doubt if much would have changed at this level, and might even have been scaled down a bit. Now of course everything has been remodelled, redecorated, changed, replaced, even down to army uniforms). We should not overlook the point that much of what of is being 'built upon' today was started by Prince Hassan during the years he was in many ways certainly co- ruler with his brother and actually de-facto in chrage of the development of the country. The plans for economic development, the trade agreements and QIZs, the educational reform programme, the peace process with Israel, and so forth were all guided by Prince Hassan. The list is endless. There was a lot of solid work going on which has provided an excellent infrastructure, and it is a shame that some people have tried to reinvent the wheel during the past few years, which has wasted much time, effort and energy, but to no real advantage to the average Jordanian.
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Citizen2005
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Little_star said:
BUT he is in the line of throne...and the KH should have given the least preparation to each one of his sons especially to KA who is the eldest anyway..
KH spent his life marrying 4 wives and bringing many children to the world...
Even KA does not have a formal education....
..when he became king, he could not even speak proper Classical Arabic..he opens his mouth WIDE....WIDE...
Little_star
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"BUT he is in the line of throne...and the KH should have given the least preparation to each one of his sons especially to KA who is the eldest anyway.."
That's true but he never faced the expectation of being king. Just look at Princes William and Harry, the likelihood of Harry ever being king is pretty small and his behaviour is a big indicator of this.
That's true but he never faced the expectation of being king. Just look at Princes William and Harry, the likelihood of Harry ever being king is pretty small and his behaviour is a big indicator of this.
papillon said:
Hamzah may be far too young, but he's far so brighter than Abdullah, he'd have learnt quickly, KH had faith in his intelligence and I heard Barbara Walters was so startled when she interviewed Hamzah in London, soon after his father's death, she said - this guy of only 19 has explained to me all the alliances , the whole ME "chessboard", the strategies, hopes for future....- he had everything in mind, while i bet KA is still confused about it all.
shelley said:
this must be true as I watched an interview to P Hasan while I was in UK, he , he was visiting London, was asked about Iraq, and the terrorists' attacks in London,- they clearly valued his point of view.
tiaraprin said:
no, it's not inaccurate, not at all, it just avoids some personal, familiar items, but what she writes in her book is all true. P Hasan and QN? no1 knows, KH thought Hasan had done it, as you can read in his last letter to his brother, but clearly, QN is again very close to P Sarvath and P Hasan, KH also referred in the letter to at some nasty rumours about Hamzah and Hashim, someone, maybe P Hasan, ?no, I doubt it, spread around the rumour they did drugs.
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i think Hassan would have made a better king simply because he is older, more mature, and it seems, much more wise. The thing that bother's me most about King Abdullah is not so much policies - because I am not too familiar with them - but the fact he is always catering himself, his government, and Jordan to the West. Middle East/Western relations should be improved, for sure, but not at the expense of Jordan itself. I think he is too busy concerning himself with making Jordan a "Singapore or Switzerland of the Middle East" (and these are his own words) when he should be concerned with improving the livlihood of Jordanians and the infrastructure of his country.
King Abdullah just doesn't come across as having a lot of substance. Sure, he's a nice guy and everything. But a better king than Hassan? I think not. Of course, this is all hypothetical but based on what we know, I think Hassan would have made a far better king. I think Hassan is more in tune with the real situation on the ground in Jordan, wheras Abdullah just has a lot of catchy phrases.
King Abdullah just doesn't come across as having a lot of substance. Sure, he's a nice guy and everything. But a better king than Hassan? I think not. Of course, this is all hypothetical but based on what we know, I think Hassan would have made a far better king. I think Hassan is more in tune with the real situation on the ground in Jordan, wheras Abdullah just has a lot of catchy phrases.
Roshanah
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- Country
- Brunei
Spot on! He fails to understand that a country cannot be made to emulate another simply because no two countries are indenticle. their infrustructures and History would indeed have some similarities but that's where it would stop.
One has to realise that a Country is metaphorically speaking an "organism" therefore one must note that which nurtures it and continue to utilise such things. A Country isn't a business. Ruling a country is about peoples live and the ways in which they both enrich one's own.
it is not however something which can be put aside and justified by logic.
Life is unpredictable therefore a business approach would be unsuitable in terms of the aforesaid.
Also if there are certain things which one doesn't like about one's respective country, then instead of evying and copying another country One shold work hard to improve what exists in order to make it better.
One is aware that KA is human and makes mistakes, however it doesn't justify his inexperience within the aforementioned. He can't do it all by himself, he has to enlist help. That is neither a failing nor a sign of weakness.
A country isn't a fashion If one treats it as such One shall only be remembered as a "Suit." I by no means insult anyone not do I call anyoone names.
One has to realise that a Country is metaphorically speaking an "organism" therefore one must note that which nurtures it and continue to utilise such things. A Country isn't a business. Ruling a country is about peoples live and the ways in which they both enrich one's own.
it is not however something which can be put aside and justified by logic.
Life is unpredictable therefore a business approach would be unsuitable in terms of the aforesaid.
Also if there are certain things which one doesn't like about one's respective country, then instead of evying and copying another country One shold work hard to improve what exists in order to make it better.
One is aware that KA is human and makes mistakes, however it doesn't justify his inexperience within the aforementioned. He can't do it all by himself, he has to enlist help. That is neither a failing nor a sign of weakness.
A country isn't a fashion If one treats it as such One shall only be remembered as a "Suit." I by no means insult anyone not do I call anyoone names.
madonna23 said:
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In a lot of news reports, the term "pragmatic" is often used to discribe the Jordania kings, both Hussein and Abdulla. It looks to me they both treat their job as a business position. I mean the Jordanian ruler has more real power than say the QEII. As any CEO of a major corporation, they put the welfare of their business, i.e. the kingdom, before kinship. It appear to be a sound practice, if a bit ruthless at times. Then that's expected in the business world.
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