Queen Alia's children after her death

[Balqis]

Shelley, I would be very interested to know what you think of King Abdullah's childhood. How do you think he was raised? What was the impact on his parents' divorce on him. I realize this is way off topic here. So perhaps this can be moved into another new or relevant thread if moderators object.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

But basically, it is difficult to give what you don't have, and what he didn't have was a 'normal' balanced childhood. :(

Couldn't agree with you more about this, Shelley, but one still has to wonder, then, why have so many children? I am empathetic to the plight of not having an idyllic or even normal childhood, but I am puzzled as to why anyone with that background would bring so many children into the world without first seeing, with maybe the first couple, yes, okay, I can do this, I'm a good parent.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by shelley

She was his favourite daughter. Hamzah eventually became his favourite son, no question of that.

Am I the only one bugged by this whole notion of a parent declaring one son and daughter the favorites? Is this just a cultural thing?

[Ipi Tombe]

butterfly:

i think all parent's have their favorites (many days i prefer my hairbrained terrier over my 2yr old daughter) but i think in the middle east the title 'the favorite' has much more weight quite possibly because the families are so much larger. the title denotes that your parent might actually know you exist. compare how much time our parents had for us (it seems most of us are from smaller 'western-sized' families and then divide that time over the span of 12 kids (as in the case of KH or 27 as in the case of Shk Mo or 130 as in the case of Shk Zayed). so you see being favorite starts having some kind relevance as more and more kids come along.......

[papillon]

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

butterfly:

i think all parent's have their favorites (many days i prefer my hairbrained terrier over my 2yr old daughter) but i think in the middle east the title 'the favorite' has much more weight quite possibly because the families are so much larger. the title denotes that your parent might actually know you exist. compare how much time our parents had for us (it seems most of us are from smaller 'western-sized' families and then divide that time over the span of 12 kids (as in the case of KH or 27 as in the case of Shk Mo or 130 as in the case of Shk Zayed). so you see being favorite starts having some kind relevance as more and more kids come along.......

Good point, Ipi. I'm not so naive to think parents don't actually have their favorites, but to say so so openly and publicly is the part that gets to me. But at least in larger families, the nonfavorites can glom together and commiserate in the knowledge that they totally outnumber the favorite. It's not quite so insulting. In smaller families, this would create such tension. There might be only one nonfavorite. . .how lonely and cruel!

[sommone]

Originally Posted by papillon

Good point, Ipi. I'm not so naive to think parents don't actually have their favorites, but to say so so openly and publicly is the part that gets to me. But at least in larger families, the nonfavorites can glom together and commiserate in the knowledge that they totally outnumber the favorite. It's not quite so insulting. In smaller families, this would create such tension. There might be only one nonfavorite. . .how lonely and cruel!

I agree it is cruel to voice in the open that you have one favorite daughter and one favortie son out of 12 children...Imagine how everyone else must feel. Don't get me wrong, I think KH loved all of his children, but not equally. Which brings to mind if Haya was his favorite daughter then why was she allowed to be raised by other family members instead of being home? I have an older brother, and I am my mother's favorite child...up until now, I never thought how it might affect my brother, or I never looked at it through his eyes...

[papillon]

Originally Posted by sommone

I agree it is cruel to voice in the open that you have one favorite daughter and one favortie son out of 12 children...Imagine how everyone else must feel. Don't get me wrong, I think KH loved all of his children, but not equally. Which brings to mind if Haya was his favorite daughter then why was she allowed to be raised by other family members instead of being home? I have an older brother, and I am my mother's favorite child...up until now, I never thought how it might affect my brother, or I never looked at it through his eyes...

When my grandfather died last summer, quite a few of us grandchildren discovered that we each thought we were his favorite. :p I think this is a hallmark of good parenting or grandparenting. It's too bad KH's children didn't all feel that way when he died.

I agree that it's probably not possible to love each child equally. . .maybe differently, for they are different people. But it still bothers me that a parent would make this so known, not just within the family, but globally.

[Angie]

Originally Posted by shelley

eleven children, . .

He had 12 children, let's not forget Miss Abir!

Originally Posted by sommone

I agree it is cruel to voice in the open that you have one favorite daughter and one favortie son out of 12 children...Imagine how everyone else must feel....

I'm sure they were delighted to hear this!
NOT. All this is just so sad.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by Angie

I'm sure they were delighted to hear this!

NOT. All this is just so sad.

Well, I'm sure it is nice to be P. Hamzah and P. Haya! At least they get to live with the certainty that they were loved and cherished above all the others.

But I really hope the next generation of royals has less complicated love lives and/or fewer children, the latter especially if they are not good at parenting. The bad parenting gene runs in vicious cycles within families. This is borne out in empirical studies. . .it'd be a shame if each of KH's offspring has as many children as he had (unless they get therapy. . .could probably get group rates or a quantity discount on that :) ).

[maryshawn]

Perhaps she heard this from her mother and then her nanny and father.....so while not a true memory, it could've been passed along to her---you know how it is "when your mother was alive, you asked her.....and she said...."

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

okay, PH was 2 when QA died.

all mommy's in the group whose 2yr old daughter can cogizantly remember conversations-please raise your hand. much less about such abstract thoughts as 'queens' and 'husbands'.

puhlease. your comment maryshawn about haya acting like a 20yr old is right on target. the girl needs to grow up. mo ain't her daddy (and she needs to quit acting like he is-his kids have a million times more dignity and class) and she is never going to be queen of anything-Dubai included.

[papillon]

Originally Posted by maryshawn

Perhaps she heard this from her mother and then her nanny and father.....so while not a true memory, it could've been passed along to her---you know how it is "when your mother was alive, you asked her.....and she said...."

This seems far more likely to me, too. Either that or P. Haya had a fertile imagination as a child and can no longer separate fact from fantasy.

[sommone]

Originally Posted by papillon

Well, I'm sure it is nice to be P. Hamzah and P. Haya! At least they get to live with the certainty that they were loved and cherished above all the others.

But I really hope the next generation of royals has less complicated love lives and/or fewer children, the latter especially if they are not good at parenting. The bad parenting gene runs in vicious cycles within families. This is borne out in empirical studies. . .it'd be a shame if each of KH's offspring has as many children as he had (unless they get therapy. . .could probably get group rates or a quantity discount on that :) ).

I hope they all know that their father loved them. I hope at some point he took the time out to relay that message to them every chance he got.

[maryshawn]

In an article written in 1988, QN said she felt it was important for ALL the children to go to places to be educated where they were not the "sons and daughters of a King." Her children were shipped off to boarding schools too. Noor, herself, is a product of boarding school from jr. high on--and I think KH went to an English school (Harrow?)..........

I am not going to criticize their decisions to send the children abroad for schooling. Pity the poor teacher who sits down at teacher-royal parent conferences and says "Hamzah isn't very good with his studies...." Or reprimanding the kids: "Your Royal Highness, please don't graffitti the walls of the classroom....." Yes, this is irony. But I do understand the pressures of getting those kids into schools where they are not considered "above" the rest of the kids.

Having said all this, I think an exception may have been made for Abir, Haya and Ali. I think they should have been with their father as much as possible and grown up in a stable home. Losing a mother so young and losing their father, first to his grief and then to a look-alike Alia, had to be so hard.

Questions, comments, protests?

[Ipi Tombe]

i think it is a shame that QA died so young but with regards to the contast well spring of pity targeted at Abir, Haya and Ali post KH's death, now that has to stop. the children were grown by then and this is the natural cycle of life. (they might not teach that in posh boarding schools but in public school i was taugh the cycle of life naturally results in death.) also KH's death wasn't sudden-they knew it was coming. i'm sorry they lost their mother so young but the constant emoting regarding KH is a little overworked if you ask me. (i am not being a hard a$$ (i lost most of my family before i turned 21) but i am a realist.)

these kids seem to have a hard go at life. but i think what they have been threw is not that dissimilar than what many of us have experienced. the difference is that we naturally equate 'royalty' with 'fairytale' not 'reality'.

Originally Posted by maryshawn

In an article written in 1988, QN said she felt it was important for ALL the children to go to places to be educated where they were not the "sons and daughters of a King." Her children were shipped off to boarding schools too. Noor, herself, is a product of boarding school from jr. high on--and I think KH went to an English school (Harrow?)..........

I am not going to criticize their decisions to send the children abroad for schooling. Pity the poor teacher who sits down at teacher-royal parent conferences and says "Hamzah isn't very good with his studies...." Or reprimanding the kids: "Your Royal Highness, please don't graffitti the walls of the classroom....." Yes, this is irony. But I do understand the pressures of getting those kids into schools where they are not considered "above" the rest of the kids.

Having said all this, I think an exception may have been made for Abir, Haya and Ali. I think they should have been with their father as much as possible and grown up in a stable home. Losing a mother so young and losing their father, first to his grief and then to a look-alike Alia, had to be so hard.

Questions, comments, protests?

[papillon]

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

these kids seem to have a hard go at life. but i think what they have been threw is not that dissimilar than what many of us have experienced.

It's true. . .these events happen (sadly) all too routinely to people, and most have nowhere near the resources to deal with them as did/do KH, QA, QN, and their children.

One of the things that tugs at me, though, with respect to P. Haya, P. Ali, and Abeer is that KH's extended family was willing to pitch in, step up to the plate, take on additional responsibility when they really didn't have to in order to ensure that these children got their fair share of nurturing. But, for some reason, they were farmed out to boarding schools, where it would be almost guaranteed they wouldn't receive nurturing. Don't know about Abeer, but the other two seem to still be paying the price of that decision in their adulthoods.

Still, now that they are adults, they need to make the best of their circumstances and take responsibility for their own choices. I'm feeling hopeful for P. Ali, but P. Haya???!!! Not so confident about her prospects for a happier life.

[Ipi Tombe]

my own pessmistic predictions for dear haya is she is going to face a similar fate as christina onassis. rich, spoiled, bored, lonely, dead.

alot of similarities between these two.

Originally Posted by papillon

It's true. . .these events happen (sadly) all too routinely to people, and most have nowhere near the resources to deal with them as did/do KH, QA, QN, and their children.

One of the things that tugs at me, though, with respect to P. Haya, P. Ali, and Abeer is that KH's extended family was willing to pitch in, step up to the plate, take on additional responsibility when they really didn't have to in order to ensure that these children got their fair share of nurturing. But, for some reason, they were farmed out to boarding schools, where it would be almost guaranteed they wouldn't receive nurturing. Don't know about Abeer, but the other two seem to still be paying the price of that decision in their adulthoods.

Still, now that they are adults, they need to make the best of their circumstances and take responsibility for their own choices. I'm feeling hopeful for P. Ali, but P. Haya???!!! Not so confident about her prospects for a happier life.

[shelley]

Originally Posted by maryshawn

Questions, comments, protests?

Except that Q. Noor's children did not go to boarding school till they were 13 or so. Iman left Jordan earlier but that was her choice as she was particularly close to her aunt, Noor's sister, so she chose at about 11 to go and live with her and her family. All the older children went off much earlier, to what in England is called 'prep' school, at about 8 or 9 years of age. But I think the late King could also have put his foot down. He himself did not go to boarding school in England until he was sixteen. :(

[shelley]

Originally Posted by Ipi Tombe

my own pessmistic predictions for dear haya is she is going to face a similar fate as christina onassis. rich, spoiled, bored, lonely, dead.

alot of similarities between these two.

Please God, no. That would be too awful, whatever mistakes you may think she has made in her life, or whatever character faults she may ior may not have. Most people are victims of their upbringing ( no spoilt children, only spolit parents ) and she certainly is. That may not make her a nice person, but lets not wish her dead. :(

[Ipi Tombe]

so you are saying that all the whining about ali and haya being booted off to prep school/boarding school/whatever is pretty irrelevant since ALL of KH's kids were shipped off. mommy or no mommy?

you say that when the kids came home from school for the holidays the only people at home were nannies-maybe this was their choice.

just hear me out....

the kids went to english boarding school. QN & KH had quite a lovely house in england as does most arab royalty. maybe the kids left school, went to see daddy and stepmommy at their english country house and then decided that they wanted to go home to jordan to see their friends/relatives-what have you and traveled to jordan on their own to see these folks instead of hanging out at the farm with mom & dad?

[Ipi Tombe]

i don't wish her dead...in a million years....all i'm saying is that she seems to demonstrate a similar attitude and decision making process as c.onassis. -very short sighted- i keep hoping this girl pulls her head out of whatever hole it has been in lately and starts taking charge of her life but as the days progress it seems she steps further down that hole day after day....

i would stand up and cheer if she demonstrated one ounce of the independance she is so famed for.

for goodness sakes...she could at least not quit showjumping....but she seems to have tossed that away also.

Originally Posted by shelley

Please God, no. That would be too awful, whatever mistakes you may think she has made in her life, or whatever character faults she may ior may not have. Most people are victims of their upbringing ( no spoilt children, only spolit parents ) and she certainly is. That may not make her a nice person, but lets not wish her dead. :(