Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts 1: Ending 2022

[MAfan]

The Duke of Savoy allowed the marriage, so it is equal and we have to accept it; however, she was given the title of Princess of Greece when she was born, so Aimone married a Princess.

 

[Charlotte1]

Both of Prince Michael's daughters are HRH, when Michael married a commoner he gave up his succesion rights to the Greek throne, not his HRH. Olga and Alexandra were HRH Princess Alexandra of Greece and Denmark and HRH Princess Olga of Greece and Denmark without succesion rights.

 

[MAfan]

No, they are (were, before their marriages) HRH, only HH; this style was given them by King Konstantinos, together with the title of Princess of Greece; they didn't have the title of Princess of Denmark, because of the wedding of Michael and Marina.

 

[amedea]

was konstantinos still on the throne when he gaves them that titles?BTW also the mother of king Charles Albert of Savoy was regarded by someone as born from a morganatic marriage; and the first duchess of Aosta wasn't of exact royal rank.. so nothing new for Savoys..

 

[amedea]

I think that Savoy law of succession (was it in the civil code of 1942?) consider dynastic all the marriages approved by the head of the house regardless to the rank of the bride. But, as king Umberto said, the head of the house hasn't the (moral) power of changing the secular tradition of marrying in the royal families or similar

 

[MAfan]

And more, if the Head of the House approves a marriage, the marriage is dinastically valid: for example, the marriages of Princesses Maria Gabriella and Maria Beatrice weren't equal ones, but King Umberto allowed them, and were consedered dinastic marriages, and the Princesses didn't lose their titles. On the contrary, when Vittorio Emanuele married Marina, the King didn't allow him to marry, so he lose his titles. Prince Amedeo has allowed the marriage between Aimone and Olga, with a document deposed to a notary.

 

[amedea]

So do you think that MG and MB daughters are in a kind of a line of succession to the italian throne? And what about the children of Mafalda and Bianca of Aosta? I'm not convinced ...

 

[MAfan]

No, they aren't in the line of succession to the Italian Throne because of the Salic Law that rules the Succession, but they (MG and MB) retain their titles due to the permission of King Umberto. If the King wouldn't allow them (MG and MB) to marry, they would have lost their titles and wouldn't be considered members of the Family.

 

[amedea]

did princess Jolanda loose her status when she married the count calvi di bergolo? I think she did

 

[maria-olivia]

Is it therefore that King Humberto gave to his grandson the title of prince of Venise instead of Prince of Naples (the normal title of a heir).
An italian friend of mine said that they never had before a Prince of Venise ??

 

[Warren]

Umberto II's heir was Prince Vittorio Emanuele, the then and now Prince of Naples. The Prince of Venice title seems to have been a new creation for Emanuele Filiberto.

 

[MAfan]

King Umberto created this new title, which has never existed before, for Emanuele Filiberto; so it's right to call EF Prince, but not of Savoy, and not royal highness; I think he can be recognised as his Excellency Emanuele Filiberto di Savoia, Prince of Venice. His father Vittorio Emanuele loosed his titles and his royal status when he married without the permission of the King; if not, King Umberto would have created EF Prince of Piemonte, the usual title for the Heir to the Throne.

About the Countess of Bergolo, née Princess Jolanda, I don't know if she loosed her title or status, because King Vittorio Emanuele III allowed the marriage to Count Giorgio Calvi, Count of Bergolo; but for Jolanda it has been very hard to obtain the allowance, because her Grandmother Queen Margherita was absolutely unfavourable (she hoped in a royal marriage, not to a man who was "only" a Count) and her Father was not completely persuaded; he accepted only after the intercession of Princess Mafalda in favour of Jolanda.

 

[amedea]

the title of prince of Venice was considered in some way outrageous by venetians because Venice has never been a fief, but always a free city with some kind of oligarchy.. in any case the correct title for Venice should be "duke" as equivalent of doge ( the republic of Genua had a doge, under the Savoys there was a duke of Genua and not a prince of Genua)

 

[pamk]

This is all fascinating stuff!

 

[iakynthi]

Inventing a title,like "Prince of Venice",sounds odd to me as well.It's known that Venice had a completely different past/history from the rest regions of Italy

 

[MAfan]

Yes, and it is not a Savoy title...

 

[maria-olivia]

I can imagine the Nobility of Venise living in beatiful houses/castles along the Grand Canal , looking on TV their Prince of Venice , dancing....

 

[Tosca]

I do not think that most Venetians will spend the Saturday evenings watching "their" Prince dance...

As far as I know, and MaFan can confirm this the motto for the people from the Veneto (and as a half Venetian I'm adding myself to the list)is: "Risorga Venezia!" = "May Venice Revive!" (referring to the Republic of course) and "Viva San Marco!"

 

[MAfan]

Yes, "Viva San Marco" was the motto of the Republic of Venice...however, I don't think Venetians feel EF as "their Prince"...

 

[iakynthi]

Whatever...I'm sure most people in Italy don't even bother to know which is the official title of EF.

 

[EmpressRouge]

I'm wondering...Let's say Vittorio Emanuele is still recognized as the current head of the House of Savoy. Could he change/get rid of Salic law so that Emanuele Filiberto's elder daughter inherits the title? As it stands, Amedeo (or more likely Aimone or his unborn rumored to be son) will automatically become head anyway. So much for the current disputes. But I can see VE changing succession laws to spite his cousin.

 

[MAfan]

King Umberto II declared that the Head of the House can not change the Succession Law, so even if VE was the Head of the Family and EF his successor, the next in the Line of Succession remain Amedeo and Aimone.

 

[EmpressRouge]

King Umberto II declared that the Head of the House can not change the Succession Law, so even if VE was the Head of the Family and EF his successor, the next in the Line of Succession remain Amedeo and Aimone.

That could potentially lead to a situation like Japan where they run out of male heirs. If Aimone's unborn child is not a boy and he and Olga don't have any sons...or if their sons don't have any sons, that would mean the end of the House of Savoy? Or is there another cadet branch who would be eligible for the spot?

 

[MAfan]

That could potentially lead to a situation like Japan where they run out of male heirs. If Aimone's unborn child is not a boy and he and Olga don't have any sons...or if their sons don't have any sons, that would mean the end of the House of Savoy? Or is there another cadet branch who would be eligible for the spot?

Theorically, only the Parliament can change the Succession Law; but Italian Parliament doesn't recognise titles, and so it has no powers in this things...In my opinion, the best solution is the return of the Monarchy in Italy, but it's very very very hard...

 

[iakynthi]

And what does Silvio have to say about your suggestion,Mafan?

 

[MAfan]

And what does Silvio have to say about your suggestion,Mafan?

Silvio who? (I hope not the one I think you refer...)

 

[iakynthi]

Esattamente!!

That one...

 

[MAfan]

That one...

In 2006 some telephonic interceptions of VE and Prince Mariano Hugo of Windisch-Graetz were published; they were talking, in 2001, about the return of VE & co. in Italy, and he said that if Silvio accepted to help him, he would have given monarchic votes to Silvio in the 2006 elections...

http://www.la7.it/news/dettaglio_news.asp?id_news=18259&cat=politica

 

[iakynthi]

Really? I'm sure that's exactly how the restorations of the monarchies start Let's see...

 

[amedea]

I didn't know that prince windish-graetz was a friend/supporter of VE