Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts 1: Ending 2022

[Mbruno]

The source is probably Sacchi's thumb.

15 % is not a wild guess though. It is about the number we see in other republics where there is a very remote chance of restoration like Brazil, Portugal , etc.

I wouldn’t be surprised with similar ( small) numbers in Italy.

 

[Marengo]

The only surprise in the statement is what took them so long to arrive at this decision. At the time of the duke of Castro's decision to change the succession in favor of his daughters it was already noted that for the Savoy's it would probably more be a question of *when* and not *if*.

I believe the duke of Anhalt did the same, as did in a way the late Margrave of Meissen. I think we will see more such changes in the future.

As the duke of Aosta does not recognize his cousin as the head of the family it is not surprising he will probably not support this decision either.

The title Princess of Carignano is a fitting tribute to the history of this branch of the Savoy family.

 

[crm2317]

It makes no difference ultimately, the monarchy is still defunct.
I wonder will the two girls begin to appear more in public with their father?

 

[eya]

According to the press release, the Princesses' first official engagement will be on 14 March at Hautecombe during the commemoration of King Umberto and Queen Maria José.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Has anyone found a link to the press release?

The only surprise in the statement is what took them so long to arrive at this decision. At the time of the duke of Castro's decision to change the succession in favor of his daughters it was already noted that for the Savoy's it would probably more be a question of *when* and not *if*.

[...]

As the duke of Aosta does not recognize his cousin as the head of the family it is not surprising he will probably not support this decision either.

The title Princess of Carignano is a fitting tribute to the history of this branch of the Savoy family.

I agree with all of the above, and the title Marchioness of Ivrea is also a lovely nod to the roots of the Savoy family.

I believe the duke of Anhalt did the same, as did in a way the late Margrave of Meissen. I think we will see more such changes in the future.

The former king of the Bulgarians changed the succession as well, to (eta: if my memory serves me correctly, as I cannot locate the original interview where it was discussed) absolute primogeniture. But I believe he is the only head of a former European reigning family who has made the change while having a son.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Duke of Aosta and his supporters can suck it up for all I care.

[.....].

Why are you dragging Prince Amedeo and his son Prince Aimone in this? They have not uttered one word at all so far. Nothing "to suck it up" for all you care.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I believe he was responding to this part of the previous post:

The Duke of Aosta and his supporters will condemn this action very swiftly, one imagines.

 

[Benjamin]

The Unione Monarchica Italiana (Italian Monarchist Union) criticised the unilateral move of Vittorio Emanuele of Savoy to "abolish the Salic law":

https://eurohistoryjournal.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-italian-monarchist-union-condemns.html

 

[Stefan]

I believe the duke of Anhalt did the same,

.

The difference is that Prince Eduard of Anhalt has no sons and there is no junior line with sons like in the House of Savoy.

 

[lucien]

The Unione Monarchica Italiana (Italian Monarchist Union) criticised the unilateral move of Vittorio Emanuele of Savoy to "abolish the Salic law":

https://eurohistoryjournal.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-italian-monarchist-union-condemns.html

Oh did they now. UMI..Oldfashioned lot stuck in the wrong century.If one reason, it is them and their lack of reality that redicules the House of Savoy and blocks a broader view of the Italians on the Monarchal system a Constitutional Monarchy that is.They haven't got a clue.

The Aosta's have no say,they are a cadet branch and nada mas,so no one gives a hoot as to what they think/say in a defunct Monarchy even though some might think the world of 'm for reasons beyond me,just the umptiest people of the same sort in the same situation...Not extinct but defunct..Couleur locale,that's all,and for the rest...niente.Just making una bella figura as that is all they've left to do..

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is of no importance for the Savoia-Aosta anyway since -for them- Vittorio Emmanuele di Savoia and his descendants are no successors.

The three of Vittorio Emmanuele very own sisters are all brouillés with him and two of them openly support the Savoia-Aosta claim.

 

[lucien]

It is of no importance for the Savoia-Aosta anyway since -for them- Vittorio Emmanuele di Savoia and his descendants are no successors.

The three of Vittorio Emmanuele very own sisters are all brouillés with him and two of them openly support the Savoia-Aosta claim.

He's not my favorite either,but he is the legitimate claimant to the defunct Italian Throne being the eldest son of the late King Umberto and Queen Maria José.
The Savoia Aosta 's have always thought they are far above anyone else on the planet but that's just what they think

It was a totally disfunctional family at the time and still to this day,so no surprises in the siblings department there.

 

[theroyalfly]

The new titles given to the girls are very fitting. Has the Savoy-Aosta branch said something yet?

The "heir" Vittoria, Princess of Carignano is a beautiful child. Excited to see her on her first engagement. She's just a year older than the Princess of Asturias and Prince Christian.

 

[maria-olivia]

King Umberto is buried with... I don't know the word in english. Mafan please help !

 

[MAfan]

The late King Umberto II wanted the royal seal of the Heads of the House of Savoy to be buried with him in his coffin, after his death.
Some say that, in this way, he intended to make clear that he was the last King of Italy, the last sovereign of the House of Savoy; other say that he wanted to prevent his descendants and civil heirs (namely his son) from coming into possession of the seal and (mis)using it.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Were his wishes regarding the seal fulfilled ?

 

[MAfan]

Yes, they were. IIRC the seal was placed in one of the King's armpit.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Umberto (son of Aimone di Savoia-Aosta and of Olga of Greece) is 5 years younger than Vittoria (daughter of Emanuele Filiberto di Savoia and of Clotilde Courau).

One never knows.

King Umberto II was extremely disappointed with his Vittorio Emanuele and refused his consent to his marriage. At the same time he did not specifically acknowledge his Savoia-Aosta cousins as rightful heirs. So the Italian monarchy has ended with him, we can say.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The Savoia-Aosta family has not given any reaction. Only the biggest monarchy faction issued a communiqué, pointing that changing rules is not for a private person to decide but needs a proper and legal procedure:

"It seems evident to anyone who has a limited knowledge of the law, and of the constitutional law in particular, that the succession to the throne of a State, governed by a constitutional monarchy should necessarily be sought in the fundamental Charter of the State, that is: in its Constitution.

In fact, the Statuto Albertino ( = the Constitution of the Kingdom of Italy) says in Article 2 that only a new constitutional charter of the Kingdom, to be approved in the forms proper to the State could modify the succession to the throne.

In essence, the rule is not in the availability of the Savoia family but of the representative organs of the State, that is, of Parliament in its constituent function."

-----------------

Note that in Romania the late King Michael only" proposed" a change of the succession and of the Royal House, to be confirmed by Parliament. He named his eldest daughter as "Custodian of the Crown", showing that this is a matter which involves other organs (of State).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

"It seems evident to anyone who has a limited knowledge of the law, and of the constitutional law in particular, that the succession to the throne of a State, governed by a constitutional monarchy should necessarily be sought in the fundamental Charter of the State, that is: in its Constitution.

In fact, the Statuto Albertino ( = the Constitution of the Kingdom of Italy) says in Article 2 that only a new constitutional charter of the Kingdom, to be approved in the forms proper to the State could modify the succession to the throne.

In essence, the rule is not in the availability of the Savoia family but of the representative organs of the State, that is, of Parliament in its constituent function."

The argument in the UMI's reaction is not too viable: It "seems evident to anyone who has a limited knowledge of the law, and of the constitutional law in particular", that "the forms proper to the State" have not only "modif[ied] the succession to the throne", but abolished the throne altogether.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The argument in the UMI's reaction is not too viable: It "seems evident to anyone who has a limited knowledge of the law, and of the constitutional law in particular", that "the forms proper to the State" have not only "modif[ied] the succession to the throne", but abolished the throne altogether.

With that - like in Romania and Russia - a glass dome has been placed over the monarchy.
The other end is that one accepts a private person has dicatorial powers and decides how, when and who. Holding powers that even reigning Kings never ever have had. Reigning King Umberto II or reigning King Michael never had any authority to change a comma in the succession, but when non-reigning, suddenly all divine powers befell them or their issue?

The position of the monarchist alliance that it is ultimately to the Italians to decide if, and when, and how, the monarchy will be restored is actually the democratically and constitutionally correct one.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

With that - like in Romania and Russia - a glass dome has been placed over the monarchy.

The monarchies were fully abolished in all of the said countries. Even the last kings were not permitted to remain under a glass dome, but forced into exile or, in the case of Russia, executed.

The other end is that one accepts a private person has dicatorial powers and decides how, when and who. Holding powers that even reigning Kings never ever have had. Reigning King Umberto II or reigning King Michael never had any authority to change a comma in the succession, but when non-reigning, suddenly all divine powers befell them or their issue?

I would think that any private person has the power to decide to claim the non-existent Italian throne. If it were a crime, then the heads of both branches would surely have been charged already.

The position of the monarchist alliance that it is ultimately to the Italians to decide if, and when, and how, the monarchy will be restored is actually the democratically and constitutionally correct one.

Is that their position? The link posted earlier in the thread claimed that their position was in support of the Aostas.

 

[maria-olivia]

Why so late ? Is Prince Vittorio Emanuele in bad health ?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Why so late ? Is Prince Vittorio Emanuele in bad health ?

I don't know about the health of Vittorio Emanuele, but he certainly looks immobile and frail. This picture is made in 2017: https://c8.alamy.com/comp/J00A2N/vi...-about-in-milan-featuring-vittorio-J00A2N.jpg

Now we are three years furtherer.

 

[Somebody]

Why so late ? Is Prince Vittorio Emanuele in bad health ?

It was dated on 28 December 2019; so, on princess Vittoria's 16th birthday. So, while late, at least it wasn't done on a random date.

 

[eya]

"In January 2020 Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia, son of the last king of Italy Umberto II, had included the women of the family in the line of succession, making his 17-year-old niece Vittoria the heir of the family."


"Aimone di Savoia-Aosta, manager of Pirelli in Moscow and heir to a cadet branch (ie the descendants of a younger son) of the Savoy, defined the abandonment of the Salic law as “totally illegitimate”. It is the latest chapter in a long feud between the two branches of the family.


https://www.italy24news.com/local/46969.html

 

[Tatiana Maria]

"In January 2020 Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia, son of the last king of Italy Umberto II, had included the women of the family in the line of succession, making his 17-year-old niece Vittoria the heir of the family."

The announcement can be read here.

Geneva – January 15th 2020.
PROVISIONS OF H.R.H PRINCE VITTORIO EMANUELE DI SAVOIA

On 28 December 2019, H.R.H. Prince Vittorio Emanuele, Duke of Savoy, Prince of Naples, Head of the Royal House of Savoy, made some important decisions regarding the life of the House of Savoy.

By signing the two resolutions that are reported below, considering the natural evolution of today’s society towards the desirable elimination of all forms of discrimination between persons, H.R.H. Prince Vittorio Emanuele decided to adapt the Law of Succession of the House of Savoy to the spirit of the times. Through these provisions, the Royal House of Savoy will adopt the rule of absolute primogeniture, which will be applied from now on to direct descendants, with lineage prevailing over degree. This rule is already applied by the majority of Royal Houses. [...]

 

[An Ard Ri]

"In January 2020 Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia, son of the last king of Italy Umberto II, had included the women of the family in the line of succession, making his 17-year-old niece Vittoria the heir of the family."

Slight correction but Princess Vittoria is his granddaughter not his niece.

 

[Mbruno]

The monarchies were fully abolished in all of the said countries. Even the last kings were not permitted to remain under a glass dome, but forced into exile or, in the case of Russia, executed.



I would think that any private person has the power to decide to claim the non-existent Italian throne. If it were a crime, then the heads of both branches would surely have been charged already.




Is that their position? The link posted earlier in the thread claimed that their position was in support of the Aostas.

My understanding is that Prince Vittorio Emanuele and his son are no longer making any claim to the Italian throne, having publicly acknowledged and accepted that the monarchy became extinct with the creation of the Italian Republic.


So, Vittorio Emanuele is not changing the line of succession to the Italian throne (which is non-existent), but rather the line of succession to the headship of the House of Savoy. That is important because, as Marengo explained, headship of the House implies a series of prerogatives and access to certain assets that are independent of being King of Italy, including for example the grand mastership of the Savoy orders.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

This is Vittorio Emanuele's decree altering the succession to the headship of the house in December 2019.

We Vittorio Emanuele Duke of Savoy, Prince of Naples
by the Grace of God and by Hereditary Right Head of the Royal House of Savoy
XVII General Grand Master of the Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus

Given the natural evolution of today's society, which is moving towards the desirable elimination of any form of discrimination between persons, with the desire to adapt the Law of Succession of Our House to the spirit of the times, we, of our own will

have decreed and decree

that from today and in the future, succession in the capacity of Head of Our Royal House and Grand Master of Our Dynastic Orders, with all the privileges, prerogatives, rights and powers associated therewith, shall be reserved to Our descendants of both genders, forever, according to the criterion of absolute primogeniture, with lineage prevailing over degree.

Issued in Geneva on the 28th of December of the year 2019​

My understanding is that Prince Vittorio Emanuele and his son are no longer making any claim to the Italian throne, having publicly acknowledged and accepted that the monarchy became extinct with the creation of the Italian Republic.

I am not particularly informed regarding the House of Savoy, but the wording of the decree would appear to back up your statement. Vittorio Emanuele is cited as head of the house and grandmaster of its orders, but not as claimant of the nonexistent throne of Italy.

On the other hand, the decree cites "privileges, prerogatives, rights and powers associated therewith", which I suppose some could interpret as a loophole to make other claims if he later changes his mind.

What is the position of the Aostas? Do they believe they are entitled to the throne of a nonexistent kingdom of Italy, or only the headship of the house of Savoy in the republic of Italy?