Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts 1: Ending 2022


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That's very true when we speak about Italy.
 
And that's exactly what we are talking about.
 
As this section relates to the restoration of the monarchy, and succession to the headship of the house of Savoy, it is however interesting to lay out the things we know, despite a seeming mountain to climb before an Italian kingdom is again proclaimed. Unfortunately, as has been so clearly illustrated by recent years history, and a large number of posts in the Italian section of these forums, the fight for the headship of the family overshadows the cause itself. In all fairness, if one excludes the possibility of a monarchical restoration, I don't see the problem letting the branches disagree, and split, like happens in any family in the world from time to time. At some point in the future, feuding families tend to reconcile on their own. If not, the current rules of headship indicate that in a future decades away, headship of the House of Savoy will transfer to the Duke of Aosta and his branch.
For now, Italy still has a former Crown Prince, who himself has a son, who himself has two daughters. Whether one approves or not, that is the last recognised resemblance of an Italian Royal Family.
The questions to follow is whether dynastic approval for the Crown Princes marriage was given, and whether succession would be changed to accommodate girls. This is the basis for a circular debate that frankly interests very few people, and is neither helpful, nor practically resolvable in the current Italian republic. What remains then is supporters deadlocked in positions I'm sure they feel they can validate in one direction or another, but that is seldom explained based on facts, but rather on personal taste and preference, i.e references to the Prince of Venice and Piedmont as 'that dancing dude' etc.

I always find it interesting that many people seem more interested in supporting a person than a cause. That is one of the reasons monarchies often fail, and why it is hard to restore them once they're taken down, if we link them so firmly to one person, and not as a way of organizing societies. The institution should be bigger than the person, as proven by King Juan Carlos in 2014, by abdicating the throne of Spain in favour of his successor.
As is extensively explained at Headship of the House of Savoy - Savoy Succession Dispute - Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia - Victor Emmanuel of Savoy - Amedeo di Savoia Aosta - Amadeus Savoy - Head of the House of Savoy of Italy - Regalis - Savoy Succession, headship of the House of Savoy lies with the Crown Prince, then the Prince of Venice, before it will cross to the Duke of Aosta and their family. That is, unless something new were to arise in the 40-50 years ahead. Looking at the history, and the unpredictabilty of future events, it would seem silly to sit idly by and wait for a transfer of headship upon the demise of the current Prince, time that might be better spent advocating the cause of monarchy, in a nation that was once a proud kingdom, and which is being abused by generations of politicians, who could do with a bit of a political shake-up, and a new order to their chaotic existence.

Finally, I would just add that whatever the future holds for the Italian Royal Family, and whatever they have done in the past, neither of these two men, the Crown Prince and the Duke of Aosta, are very fine examples of moral restraint, and their failings over the years is evident in courtcases, illegitimate children etc. I would hope that any future monarchy, or even just a more healthy House of Savoy, would be allowed to be based on love-based unions and peaceful solutions to conflict. That would greatly benefit the family itself, their representation of Italian history and any prospects of a future Italian kingdom.
 
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Italian Restoration Prospect

So are we still shunned in Italy? I'm just curious about any possible updates about the very very very slim chance of restoration in Italy.

-Frozen Royalist

P.S. Just out of curiosity what about the groups like the Monarchist Alliance (Alleanza Monarchica in Italian) which has apparently 110,000 members as of 2012, I mean that has to mean something.
 
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When you see the Duke of Parma or the Duke of Calabria visiting former realms, they are met with reference, the Mayor in full ornate greeting them, Pontifical Mass is said in the local cathedral and there are receptions in honour of said royals. But that is culture, that is politesse, that is acknowledgement of the historic role a family played, etc. It has nothing to do with any desire for a restoration.

What does not help is that the Savoias and the Savoia-Aostas are bitterly divided, with the Savoia part behaving quite unconventional. What also does not play well is that some royals are ostentatiously so trash in their appearances (Marina Doria and Camilla Crociani) that every presidential spouse in the Palazzo Quirinale oozes more class and dignity in their little finger than the whole of Marina and Camilla together).

The only hope is that finally the monarchists will assemble behind Prince Aimone and Princess Olga (née Princess of Greece) and their son Prince Umberto. But I am afraid that we will see a furtherer split, when Emanuele Filiberto goes the Two-Sicilies or the Romanian way and suddenly changes the succession to his own preference, so that his daughters will succeed him, making the rift in the dynasty complete.

As long as the Savoia-Aostas are so fragmented, any chance on a restoration is zero.
 
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Duc_et_Pair said:
When you see the Duke of Parma or the Duke of Calabria visiting former realms, they are met with reference, the Mayor in full ornate greeting them, Pontifical Mass is said in the local cathedral and there are receptions in honour of said royals. But that is culture, that is politesse, that is acknowledgement of the historic role a family played, etc. It has nothing to do with any desire for a restoration.

What does not help is that the Savoias and the Savoia-Aostas are bitterly divided, with the Savoia part behaving quite unconventional. What also does not play well is that some royals are ostentatiously so trash in their appearances (Marina Doria and Camilla Crociani) that every presidential spouse in the Palazzo Quirinale oozes more class and dignity in their little finger than the whole of Maria and Camilla together).

The only hope is that finally the monarchists will assemble behind Prince Aimone and Princess Olga (née Princess of Greece) and their son Prince Umberto. But I am afraid that we will see a furtherer split, when Emanuele Filiberto goes the Two-Sicilies or the Romanian way and suddenly changes the succession to his own preference, so that his daughters will succeed him, making the rift in the dynasty complete.

As long as the Savoia-Aostas are so fragmented, any chance on a restoration is zero.
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Well fingers crossed for them assembling behind the Aostas and then go on to prove Padre Pio right.
 
JR76 said:
Well fingers crossed for them assembling behind the Aostas and then go on to prove Padre Pio right.
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The other way is also possible: assemble behind Emanuele Filiberto and eventually -in mutual agreement- behind his daughters. But I am afraid the Aostas will not be that forthcoming towards the Savoias, but you never know.

Prince Aimone is pursuing his career in Russia and the Scandivian countries: link. He will not have unlimited time for the monarchist movement, I think.
 
The chances on restoration were already zero: the Cinque Stelle movement of Beppe Grillo will never support a monarchy. Neither the separatist Lega Nord, or the Greens, or the Socialists, rallying with a despicable figure as Berlusconi will certainly not help.

In Bulgaria fomer King Simeon became Prime Minister. In no time he not only blew all goodwill but also every chance for the Royal House. A minister is always partisan. A minister has to defend policy initiated by the Government, he has to defend unpopular decision, he has to withstand parliamentary opposition.

Taking a -per definition- partisan political role is killing for any royal aspiration, as anno 2018 there is only place for strict constitutional monarchs in a 99% ceremonial role.
 
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Wasn't the Prince dancing on ice or with the stars a few years back?
 
An Ard Ri said:
Wasn't the Prince dancing on ice or with the stars a few years back?
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Yes, but that was nothing when he indeed becomes a minister under Berlusconi. Even a minister of something like Culture (who can be in political problems on his own department too, as Italy is crammed with monuments, but also the experimental ballet school in city A would like to have subsidy, the opera in city B is on the verge of bankruptcy, and maybe there is a heavily contested prestige project in the historic centre of city C the minister has to defend, etc.)

Pretenders and an executive role in politics: no, no, no. There are (were) several parliamentarians, like the late Archduke Otto of Austria, but that was not an executive role as a minister or a state secretary. Even the bare fact that Emanuele Filiberto is willing to join Berlusconi, a heavily controversial and contested figure, shows he has learned nothing from his great-grandfather Vittorio-Emanuele III and his grandfather Umberto. Exactly that being too close to Mussolini's Government caused the downfall of the monarchy.
 
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Duc_et_Pair said:
Yes, but that was nothing when he indeed becomes a minister under Berlusconi. Even a minister of something like Culture (who can be in political problems on his own department too, as Italy is crammed with monuments, but also the experimental ballet school in city A would like to have subsidy, the opera in city B is on the verge of bankruptcy, and maybe there is a heavily contested prestige project in the historic centre of city C the minister has to defend, etc.)

Pretenders and an executive role in politics: no, no, no. There are (were) several parliamentarians, like the late Archduke Otto of Austria, but that was not an executive role as a minister or a state secretary. Even the bare fact that Emanuele Filiberto is willing to join Berlusconi, a heavily controversial and contested figure, shows he has learned nothing from his great-grandfather Vittorio-Emanuele III and his grandfather Umberto. Exactly that being too close to Mussolini's Government caused the downfall of the monarchy.
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King Umberto II has never been close to Mussolini and Vittorio Emanuele III was not a big fan of the famous president of the Council either.
 
Cory said:
King Umberto II has never been close to Mussolini and Vittorio Emanuele III was not a big fan of the famous president of the Council either.
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Prince Umberto was the commander of the Army Group West which attacked French forces during the Italian invasion of France (10-25 June 1940). On 29 October 1942 Mussolini created Prince Umberto Maresciallo d'Italia. Vittorio Emanuele and Umberto may not have been "a big fan" of Mussolini, as you describe, but both were not really at the sideline, as Umberto's activites as commander of aggresion forces show.

The fact that the Italians, apart from the conditions around the Referendum, did not support continuation of the monarchy (55% against) say enough about how King Vittorio Emanuele and later King Umberto were judged by the Italians.

Yes, yes, the Referendum was chaotic here and there, but even if he had won the Referendum with 51% even then he had to step down as the whole North, the economic heartland of the country, was in o-ver-whel-ming favour of the establishment of a republic. It would never have been convincing enough, never sustainable.

Emanuele Filiberto still has not learned the lesson that in 2018 there is only place for strict constitutional monarchs with a 99%, if not 100%, purely ceremonial role.
 
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Duc_et_Pair said:
Prince Umberto was the commander of the Army Group West which attacked French forces during the Italian invasion of France (10-25 June 1940). On 29 October 1942 Mussolini created Prince Umberto Maresciallo d'Italia. Vittorio Emanuele and Umberto may not have been "a big fan" of Mussolini, as you describe, but both were not really at the sideline, as Umberto's activites as commander of aggresion forces show.

The fact that the Italians, apart from the conditions around the Referendum, did not support continuation of the monarchy (55% against) say enough about how King Vittorio Emanuele and later King Umberto were judged by the Italians.

Yes, yes, the Referendum was chaotic here and there, but even if he had won the Referendum with 51% even then he had to step down as the whole North, the economic heartland of the country, was in o-ver-whel-ming favour of the establishment of a republic. It would never have been convincing enough, never sustainable.

Emanele Filiberto still has not learned the lesson that in 2018 there is only place for strict constitutional monarchs with a 99%, if not 100%, purely ceremonial role.
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I agree that a descendent of a Sovereign should not be involved in politics but King Umberto's grandson does not belong to a dynastic branc of the Savoys.
 
Cory said:
I agree that a descendent of a Sovereign should not be involved in politics but King Umberto's grandson does not belong to a dynastic branc of the Savoys.
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Opinions differ about that, but that "problem" will automatically be solved as Emanuele Filiberto has no sons.

Unless he does it the "michaelian way": declaring that his daughters are his successors indeed.

When we accept this from Michael, how can we not accept this from Emanuele Filiberto?

For so far Prince Aimone and Princess Olga live in far-away Russia and pursue their private life and career (picture: Prince Aimone leads Prime Minister Medvedev through the Pirelli Tyre Plant in Voronezh).
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
When we accept this from Michael, how can we not accept this from Emanuele Filiberto?
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I think the words you’re looking for, are ‘double’ and ‘standard’, or the straightforward ‘inconsistencies’.

If the Prince of Venezia has no future role in the dynastic aspirations of the Savoys because we’re using Machiavellian principles of ‘sins of the father’, what does it matter what choices he makes for his future?

It all depends, really. If he turns out to be a good politician, it’s a good way to elevate the cause of monarchy in Italy again. If he’s not, or if anything controversial and difficult lands on his table, he might find himself sullied, but in all fairness, what does he have to lose at this stage?

A restoration is not on the current agenda, and the Savoys and some of its saboteurial supporters spend more energy debating titles, acceptable marriages and primogeniture, while Italians in general could care less. Positive attention is what the Italians will respond to. It remains to be seen if a ministerial career is the way to achieve that, in a land that has more governments than a decade has years.
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
Opinions differ about that, but that "problem" will automatically be solved as Emanuele Filiberto has no sons.

Unless he does it the "michaelian way": declaring that his daughters are his successors indeed.

When we accept this from Michael, how can we not accept this from Emanuele Filiberto?

For so far Prince Aimone and Princess Olga live in far-away Russia and pursue their private life and career (picture: Prince Aimone leads Prime Minister Medvedev through the Pirelli Tyre Plant in Voronezh).
Click to expand...

There is no comparison between a Sovereign and a non-dynastic descendant of a King.
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
Opinions differ about that, but that "problem" will automatically be solved as Emanuele Filiberto has no sons.

Unless he does it the "michaelian way": declaring that his daughters are his successors indeed.

When we accept this from Michael, how can we not accept this from Emanuele Filiberto?

For so far Prince Aimone and Princess Olga live in far-away Russia and pursue their private life and career (picture: Prince Aimone leads Prime Minister Medvedev through the Pirelli Tyre Plant in Voronezh).
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Emanuele-Filiberto di Savoia does not seem involved in politics anymore.
Prince Aimone is not very known to the Italians and the support for the House of Savoy is almost inexistent.
 
Cory said:
Emanuele-Filiberto di Savoia does not seem involved in politics anymore. [...].
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It was you who brought the news that he could serve in a Berlusconi Government? Isn't that "politics"?
 
Italy has been unable to keep a stable government for any length of time for decades and to suggest restoring the Monarchy when the two branches haven't gotten along for eons without a sliver of a chance of reconciliation is a losing situation. To have a stable monarchy there needs to a stable govt. backing the institution.
Just to add to the Emanuele Filiberto trivia, he also ran a food truck in Los Angeles for a very short time.
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
It was you who brought the news that he could serve in a Berlusconi Government? Isn't that "politics"?
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He was a candidate for the elections not a member of the government.

The Savoia Family of any branch are certainly not the most popular Family in the country.
 
Katrianna said:
Italy has been unable to keep a stable government for any length of time for decades and to suggest restoring the Monarchy when the two branches haven't gotten along for eons without a sliver of a chance of reconciliation is a losing situation. To have a stable monarchy there needs to a stable govt. backing the institution.
Just to add to the Emanuele Filiberto trivia, he also ran a food truck in Los Angeles for a very short time.
Click to expand...

He is a private person so he can choose the job he wants. He was interested in TV and then politics and now the promotion of the Italian food.
 
The talking about restoration leads to nothing: most likely the Savoys themselves are not at all interested. They honour their illustrious House's glorious memory and that was it, I think.

Not only was Italy only for a limited time one united kingdom: only for 75 years (the current republic is 72 years old). Like in Germany it has overpowered centuries old smaller states and as the separatists of Lega Nord show, regional tensions still are apparent in today's Italy.

No matter an eventual (and unlikely) overhelming popularity of a Savoia pretender: as said earlier, it is hard to see the likes of the anti-establishment and direct-democratism propaging Movimento 5 Stelle, the separatistic Lega Nord, the green-left Sinistra Italiana, the progressive Articulo Uno or the social-democrats of Partido Uno ever vote to end the Italian Republic...

And the most important thing: King Umberto accepted the deposition of the monarchy and urged the Italians to serve the new republic. With that he factually accepted that times have changed and that Italy would never be a monarchy again.
 
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Katrianna said:
To have a stable monarchy there needs to a stable govt. backing the institution.
Click to expand...

In all fairness, that's not the case in quite a few monarchies, unstable governments tend to be offset by the stability and continuation of the monarchy at the top of governance. However, to restore a monarchy one does need stable governments on side with the cause. In this day and age, restorations won't happen without political support, at least not in the West.

Obviously to most, with the Crown Prince being both too old and controversial, he will never follow his father onto the throne, but the Prince of Venezia might, with the right campaign. For that to happen, he needs to make the right choices along the way, but also make friends in high places in Italian politics and society, and take up chances to affect change through work, along the lines of Prince Leka in Albania, and Crown Prince Nikola in Montenegro.
 
LadyRohan said:
In all fairness, that's not the case in quite a few monarchies, unstable governments tend to be offset by the stability and continuation of the monarchy at the top of governance. However, to restore a monarchy one does need stable governments on side with the cause. In this day and age, restorations won't happen without political support, at least not in the West.

Obviously to most, with the Crown Prince being both too old and controversial, he will never follow his father onto the throne, but the Prince of Venezia might, with the right campaign. For that to happen, he needs to make the right choices along the way, but also make friends in high places in Italian politics and society, and take up chances to affect change through work, along the lines of Prince Leka in Albania, and Crown Prince Nikola in Montenegro.
Click to expand...

In all fairness: Albania and Montenegro are small states, amongst the poorest in Europe and with a democracy still in development. The current state of Montenegro is only 11 years old (sedition from Serbia in 2006). It is impossible to compare that with Italy, one of the giants in the European Union, the world's 7th biggest economy. What Leka and Nikola possibly can "achieve" in their small, and "overseeable" countries is unthinkable for the big complicated patchwork of regions and former states which together form the arch-difficult Italian Republic.
 
Cory and Duc , How do you have time write a lot of Posts.
In the Abbey of hautecombe King Umberto is burried with the seal (?) of the italian Kings
 
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