Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts 1: Ending 2022

[Cory]

Vittorio-Emanuele di Savoia sees his grandaughters as being in the Line of Succession which has nothing to do with the Salic Law tradition and laws of the House of Savoy.

 

[LadyRohan]

He is basically saying that any Royal House that continues to exclude women from any order of succession, pretender or actual, is out of touch and it needs to be amended. If Italy was a kingdom today, this would of course be done. If it becomes one tomorrow, it would surely be under a different one than the outdated and sexist salic law provisions.

 

[Cory]

The Laws of the House of Savoy can't be changed by a descendant of the House.

 

[eya]

We have seen that most monarchies in Europe have changed the succession. The first child regardless of gender. Certainly in Italy or elsewhere restore the monarchy there will again be changes in succession and Laws.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

We have seen that most monarchies in Europe have changed the succession. The first child regardless of gender. Certainly in Italy or elsewhere restore the monarchy there will again be changes in succession and Laws.

The monarchies themselves did not change it. It were the Governments which did so, under pressure of the "thou-shalt-not-discriminate"-zelots which will not stop here anyway because the "discrimination" remains ("why the eldest child and not the youngest child?" and ultimatelty "why Miss Bernadotte and not Miss X from Stockholm?") and can only end when the monarchy is broken down.

 

[eya]

Sorry I did not understand exactly what you want to say .. Anyway what I'm saying is that I know that governments change laws. When monarchies return may not apply laws that were in force before 70-100 years.

 

[Andy T]

It really doesn't matter one iota what Emanuele Filiberto thinks about the succession, or what the house rules say, or what the last constitution of the monarchy says, or what the monarchists say. In the highly unlikely event of a restoration of the monarchy -in Italy or anywhere else - the citizens, directly and/or through their elected representatives will decide on the rules and the individual.
In Great Britain in 1689, in France in 1830, in Spain in 1975, the most acceptable candidate was placed on the throne and the established "order" ignored. Queen Victoria Eugenie of Spain was said to have argued that the interests of the country, the monarchy and the dynasty, in that order, all come before the individual.

 

[Cory]

Until the Monarchy will be restored nobody can change the Laws of the House of Savoy.

 

[Mbruno]

The monarchies themselves did not change it. It were the Governments which did so, under pressure of the "thou-shalt-not-discriminate"-zelots which will not stop here anyway because the "discrimination" remains ("why the eldest child and not the eldest child?" and ultimatelty "why Miss Bernadotte and not Miss X from Stockholm?") and can only end when the monarchy is broken down.

With the exception of Sweden, where the King is not part of the legislative process, all other European countries that changed primogeniture laws did so with the monarch's assent, which is formally required for any law to come into force. Therefore, one can say that the monarch agreed (at least formally) to the change, even though the initiative to change the law may have come from the politicians.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

With the exception of Sweden, where the King is not part of the legislative process, all other European countries that changed primogeniture laws did so with the monarch's assent, which is formally required for any law to come into force. Therefore, one can say that the monarch agreed (at least formally) to the change, even though the initiative to change the law may have come from the politicians.

A refusal to sign the democratically agreed changed Constitution is the same as signing the own death warrant. So of course the monarch had to sign it, whether they liked it or not. As head of the dynasty they can have a total different opinion about it, but like we see in Sweden: the unbroken male bloodline of Swedish Kings continues with Prince Carl Philip. His niece Estelle Westling, pardon: Bernadotte, will set a new bloodline on the throne. That may be clear.

 

[Cory]

So obviously a Head of a Royal House can't really change the rules. Not to speak about descendants with no dynastic rights. .

 

[Andy T]

A "Royal House" is quite distinct from a ruling dynasty in a monarchy. Any "laws" that govern succession in a ruling dynasty in a monarchy are one thing but in a republic, as these laws have been abolished, they no longer exist. There are no rules because there is no monarchy! In real terms, a "royal house" which doesn't reign has no constitutional significance whatsoever unless (as in the case of Montenegro, for example) it is accorded a constitutional status.

Therefore, any of these old rules are only "applied", if at all, by the mutual consent of those concerned. Alternatively, power to make/change rules is vested, again by mutual consent of those affected, in a recognised head of a house. If it's possible for any head of a house to establish rules regarding succession or marriage, it's also perfectly possible for a later head of house to change them. If it's not possible to change anything in theory but a head decides to change them in practice, no laws say s/he's wrong because....there are no laws! It's a jungle, a mess, a free-for-all.

As time has gone on, we've seen various rival claimants emerge in Italy, France, Russia, Saxony and Romania, to name but a few, and so it will continue. In the Middle Ages, they formed factions, raised armies and fought wars to settle these disputes. Today, fortunately, all they (and more often than not, even more so their 'supporters') are arguing over is a name................
and if in spite of all their arguing, their country were to decide to reinstate a monarchy, the choice of monarch would not depend on them anyway, but on the citizens.

 

[Cory]

The House of Savoy is not a reigning House but anyway has a Head: HRH Prince Amedeo.

 

[eya]

The House of Savoy is not a reigning House but anyway has a Head: HRH Prince Amedeo.

It is not clear . In another thread i read that there two claimants Vittorio Emanuele and Prince Amedeo.

 

[MAfan]

Yes, there are two claimants; each of them believes to be the rightful Head of the House of Savoy and each of them have his supporters.


As for the succession rules, maybe it's true that the Head of the House of Savoy cannot change them (this also was believed by King Umberto II), but this doesn't mean that they cannot be amended at all. It has already happened in the past, i.e. with Prince Amedeo, Duke of Aosta, in 1873.

 

[maria-olivia]

MAfan , could you remember me what the late King Umberto II kept in his Coffin?

 

[JR76]

MAfan , could you remember me what the late King Umberto II kept in his Coffin?

Wasn't he buried with the Royal seal?


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[Duc_et_Pair]

The late King Umberto wrote an angry letter to his son about his "uncceptable" bride and that with his mésalliance he was dishonouring the House of Italia. This letter has been stored but the King has not made real decisions to strip his son because of his mésalliance. At the other side, the King could do not much as he -of course- was no reigning King anymore but a private person whom happened to be head of a royal house.

So the one side (Savoia-Aosta) will say: "See, King Umberto was most discontent with his son and did not accept his choice of partner". The other side (Savoia) will say: "The King has never decreed to be against the marriage of his son with Marina Doria". The fact that the King did not name his own son as executor of his heritage might be a sign of his disapproval but it is still no clear act to remove him from the succession.

Anyway, as things are at the moment, Amedeo, Aimone and Umberto are in both lines of succession. No one disputes that. As nothing changes, the Savoia-Aostas will continue the royal line since Emanuele Filiberto has no sons. Period.

 

[maria-olivia]

Thanks JR76, I know it in french forgot it in english .

 

[JR76]

Thanks JR76, I know it in french forgot it in english .

You're welcome


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[MAfan]

Wasn't he buried with the Royal seal?


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So it has been said.
It was said that in his will King Umberto wanted the Royal Seal to be buried with him and that one person close to him (although his identity isn't known) put the seal under the King's armpit soon before the coffin was closed and sealed.
However, it isn't definitely known whether the story is true or not. Some say that it is true, other (i.e. his son Vittorio Emanuele, IIRC) say that it's false.
And I believe that unless the last will of the King is made public, in order to see if it contains the clause about the burial of the seal with him, or unless the coffin of the King is opened to check if it contains the seal or not, we will never know for sure.

 

[Cory]

Anyhow the Italians has never been more indifferent to this Family as now.

 

[LadyRohan]

These statements really should be backed up by facts, as they are not facts on their own.

 

[MAfan]

It may not be a fact, but nevertheless it is true, Italian people are mostly indifferent about the House of Savoy, they simply don't care about it.

Vittorio Emanuele and Emanuele Filiberto aren't taken seriously by most; Amedeo in the last years made the news only when he was punched by his cousin at the wedding of Felipe and Letizia of Spain and when he had his out-of-wedlock daughter in 2006; Aimone is virtually unknown; the Savoy Princesses as a whole are also mainly ignored (with the only exception, maybe, of Maria Gabriella).

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

That counts for monarchies too. The average Dutchman, Belgian or Briton is indifferent about Willem-Alexander, Philippe or Elizabeth II. Not that they want to see them removed or so, but it is really also not part of their daily life. Like so many Americans could not care less about Barack and Michelle Obama. So it is no wonder that someone from Bologna or Bari, commuting to work and worrying about the bills, does not care less about a Savoia-Aosta Prince here or there.

 

[maria-olivia]

I was learning italian for two weeks in Firenze in 2006 when V.E. had problems. They spoke about it in the newspaper ...

In Belgium on place royale I saw Princess Marie Gabrielle speaking about her new book.

I went to the greatest library in Firenze and asked for , they said oh savoie on the left side on the back. There was only one book and not Marie Gabriella's.

 

[Mbruno]

That counts for monarchies too. The average Dutchman, Belgian or Briton is indifferent about Willem-Alexander, Philippe or Elizabeth II. Not that they want to see them removed or so, but it is really also not part of their daily life. Like so many Americans could not care less about Barack and Michelle Obama. So it is no wonder that someone from Bologna or Bari, commuting to work and worrying about the bills, does not care less about a Savoia-Aosta Prince here or there.

I don't think you can compare a reigning monarchy with a deposed dynasty. The average Briton may be indifferent (or not) to Queen Elizabeth II, but everybody knows who QEII is. After all, her face is even in the coins and bills people use every day. On the other hand, I suppose there may be Italians who are not even aware of who Amedeo or Emanuele Filiberto are.

 

[LadyRohan]

I don't think you can compare a reigning monarchy with a deposed dynasty. The average Briton may be indifferent (or not) ro Queen Elizabeth II, but everybody knows who QEII is. After all, her face is even in the coins and bills people use every day. On the other hand, I suppose there may be Italians who are no even aware of who Amedeo or Emanuele Filiberto are.

I agree with the first part of this, most people are indifferent to most people in positions of power or influence, because it simply isn't important for our everyday lives. My experience is that Italians in general knows who the former Crown Prince is, but that they do not add much value or weight to him or any other member of the former ruling dynasty.

That being said, if asked whether or not they want yet another President nobody cares about or a restored monarchy under a restored Savoy, I am fairly sure the numbers will be different.

 

[Cory]

The majority of people in Italy is not interested in who is the Savoy Pretender to the Throne.

 

[MAfan]

More than this, most people isn't interested at all in changing the form of government and restoring the monarchy.