Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts - Page 5

kelly9480 · #81 03-09-2009, 05:32 PM

What is the true Italian situation then? That the government is plagued by corruption? That's true. Italian politics are internationally famous for the shenanigans politicians get up to and that are tolerated by the electorate. That there is a political party that has at times mooted advocation of seceding from the state and is now focused on federalism and greater autonomy? That there is almost no support whatsoever for bringing in a monarchy to replace the president? The scandals that have plagued the Savoias haven't done their cause any good, between the shotgun marriage, criminal prosecutions, threatened lawsuits against the Italian state, attempts to enter politics, and general misbehaviour.

It would have been interesting to see how the monarchy would have fared had VEIII abdicated in 1943, and given Umberto II a chance to get his feet wet when the country wasn't under the gun, so to speak, to decide, once and for all, about something as important as altering the form of government. But it didn't work out that way,and few Italians are interested enough to give it a second thought.

You can be an Italian monarchist and still acknowledge that it's not going to happen. There are Italian monarchists, but unfortunately (?) not all of them support the Carignano line, with the Aostas, Parmas, Habsburgs and Two Sicilies all having some amount of support, however small. That inability of the few Italian monarchists to get together and support a single claimant also hurts.

iakynthi · #82 03-09-2009, 05:36 PM

I undertand exactly the way you think about it,Fearghas.I studied History and I have to agree.After all,no one said that some nations progress through the course of history.They can go backwards,as well,and feel the need to restore the monarchy.Not that I wish/hope something like that to any country.It's just a general conversation,ok?

Tosca · #83 03-10-2009, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kelly9480

another generation. And if la Lega Nord has it's way, Italy, as we know it, might disappear.

According to a most recent survey Lega Nord (Northern League) is winning more than 11% in Northern Italy, so we may have a Republic in Northern Central Italy and a Kingdom in the South.
I don't think the Southern Italians would be very welcoming to the Savoias...

tody21974 · #84 03-10-2009, 12:32 PM

i think that savoia hope is in this baby, and in the profecy of Padre Pio, Padre Pio profecy the election of pope Giovanni Paolo II, is possible see in the future the new italian monarchy, i want to see the smile in the future

**MAfan** · #85 03-10-2009, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tody21974

i think that savoia hope is in this baby, and in the profecy of Padre Pio, Padre Pio profecy the election of pope Giovanni Paolo II, is possible see in the future the new italian monarchy, i want to see the smile in the future

And his Father is portraied on Padre Pio's grave...

Tosca · #86 03-10-2009, 01:47 PM

With all due respect for Padre Pio, take it with a grain of salt.

iakynthi · #87 03-10-2009, 04:21 PM

I'm really shocked now:could Italy be separated in two countries?Is this really possible?

Tosca · #88 03-11-2009, 11:15 AM

Or even in three. I do not think the Sicilians would like to be subordinated again to a King whose throne stands in Naples...

Do not forget that Italy was just the name of a peninsula until 1861. The Romans themselves used to call today's Italian North "Gaul".
Besides the Italian peninsula is inhabited by several populations, who have sometimes very little in common, but religion and an official language. I see this concept is difficult to grasp for a foreigner.

This said, EF talks about succession issues in his latest interview to weekly DIVAeDONNA, and though not mentioning Aimone's son at all, he said that he and Clotilde are still thinking of having another baby. It doesn't matter if Clotilde is 40 already, after all Princess Caroline had her daughter Alexandra at 42 years of age. Moreover there's a parliamentary bill that if approved - and it's very likely to be approved, since it exists in other European countries - will enable women to give their children their maiden name. And that in Sweden, Norway and Spain, the Salic Law has been abolished. But there's nothing to abolish in Italy, since there's no longer a throne to claim.

Again: the average Italians do not care a bit about this family.

**MAfan** · #89 03-11-2009, 11:33 AM

In his letter to VE, written in Cascais on January 25, 1960, King Umberto II wrote: "As the 44th Head of the Family I have no intention , any more than I have the right, to change the law".
King Umberto knew his work, and I think that if He said that he could not change the Family Laws, he could not do it. So, theoretically, neither His descendants can change the Laws, and even if VE and after him EF would be the Head of the House, they couldn't abolish the Salic Law.

fearghas · #90 03-12-2009, 03:52 AM

I'm not an Italian monarchist, I don't even have any Italian ancestors. What I'm trying to explain is thatyou cannot predict the future and however remote, there is a chance that while there is a dynasty and country ,the Savoys could reign again. So please don't say that it is impossible, say that it is extremely unlikely. And I say this not because I want the Savoys to reign again but because sloppy logic annoys me.

amedea · #91 03-13-2009, 12:03 PM

here I am to be more precise: the book is "L'Italia del Novecento" by I. Montanelli and M. Cervi. They write that "the Church declared to be neutral but in substance hasn't been. DC choose Republic, but six milion of his eight milions voters voted for Monarchy. This not for a case but because much of the low clergy and the vast majority of the top levels preferred monarchy"

Marsel · #92 09-23-2009, 06:55 PM

Vittorio Emanuele jeopardizes any chances of restoration for the House of Savoy: who would want to have such a Head of State?

My hopes are now definitely with the Aosta branch: now here is a family that offers quite an interesting prospect for the future of the Italian Monarchy. And, there are male Heirs in the next two generations too.

Vecchiolarry · #93 09-23-2009, 07:35 PM

Hi Marsel,

I know next to nothing about Italian royalty.
I have heard, however, that the Aosta's are not much better than Victor Emmanual & his dancing son.
Can you give us a low-down on Aosta & Co.??

Also, what about the Bourbon Sicilies & family becoming monarchs? Are they any better or worse??

Thanks in advance for any information...

Cheers,
Larry

**MAfan** · #94 09-24-2009, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marsel

Vittorio Emanuele jeopardizes any chances of restoration for the House of Savoy: who would want to have such a Head of State?

My hopes are now definitely with the Aosta branch: now here is a family that offers quite an interesting prospect for the future of the Italian Monarchy. And, there are male Heirs in the next two generations too.

Unfortunately you're right...
I fear that until VE and his son EF will be alive and will continue to proclaim theirself the Heirs to the Italian Throne (and they aren't), we will remain a republic...
Moreover, and unfortunately too, the Aostas are very quiet, and not so much known...sometimes here we can hear something about Amedeo, but his family is rather unknown...

**MAfan** · #95 09-24-2009, 10:18 AM

Larry, I hope to be able to answer your questions...

You're quite right, some scandal has been about the Aostas too...but one or two illegitimate children of Amedeo are nothing if compared to the murder of a young boy (Dirk Hamer, summer 1978, killed by Vittorio Emanuele in Cavallo; in a phone call intercepted in 2006 he admitted to be culprit, but "to have duped the Judges"...) and to as trial for having took part in criminal organisation, corruption and exploitation of prostitution.

About the other Italian ex-Reigning Houses:
Two Sicilies: a long lasting feud between Infante Carlos and Prince Carlo for the headship of the Family...I don't think they will never reign here...
Parma: the present Heir, his family and parents seem to be more interested in other Thrones then the one of Parma...and it seems to me that Duke Carlo Ugo and children are more Dutch then Italian...
Modena: the present Heir is Archduke Lorenz of Austria-Este, better known as Prince Lorenz of Belgium; I don't think he and family are interested in reigning again in Italy...btw, the interesting thing is that his mother Archduchess Margherita was born Princess of Savoy.
Tuscany: rather unknown here in Italy, I myself don't know anything about Archduke Sigismund...but I don't think he will be called to reign here...

As you can see, our royal situation is very very hard and confused...

Vecchiolarry · #96 09-24-2009, 06:08 PM

Dear MAfan,

Thank you for your answers to my Italian royalty questions.
They have made things much clearer for me now.

I remember now about the Aosta illegitimate children and I must say that that problem(s) is not so much a scandal anymore in this day and age.
I guess if Italy is to be a monarchy again, I would go with Amadeo and the Aosta dynasty.

I'm sure the Savoy queens (Margarita, Elena and Maria Jose) are blushing in disgrace in their graves for the descendants; Victor Emmanual, Marina and Emmanual Filiberto don't seem to be blushing, do they??

Larry

Marsel · #97 09-24-2009, 07:08 PM

Larry, I am glad it was MAfan who answered to your questions because he is by far more knowledgeable on the subject of Italian Monarchy / House of Savoy than me.

As MAfan said, the Duke of Aosta may have been involved in a couple of scandals concerning his private life; however they are not even closely comparable to Vittorio Emanuele's deeds. For me, one of the greatest stains of Vittorio Emanuele's reputation (along with the murder of poor Dirk Hamer and all the corruption, exploitation and other charges against him, of course) is the 1969 incident, when he practically denounced his own father and pronounced himself Vittorio Emanuele IV, King of Italy. That shows about how much integrity and honour he had/has.

Duke of Aosta's son from his first marriage to Princess Claude Marie d'Orléans, Prince Aimone Umberto Emanuele Filiberto, Duke of Apulia, is by all accounts a very agreeable young man. He is, unfortunately, rather little-known to Italian public but that can be viewed as additional point in his favour: it means there are no scandals connected with him.

Prince Aimone is also the one person among all members of the House of Savoy (including the Duke of Aosta, Vittorio Emanuele and Emanuele Filiberto), whose claims to the Throne are undisputed.
He is a child of an equal, non-morganatic marriage (as opposed to the marriage of Vittorio Emanuele and, arguably, Duke of Aosta's second marriage), permission to which had been granted by King Umberto II (VE didn't receive one for his), so everything was in accordance with the rules of the House of Savoy.
Which is more, he himself married Princess Olga Isabella of Greece in 2008: the marriage is equal and permission was granted by both Vittorio Emanuele and the Duke of Aosta (the two people who claim the Headship of the House of Savoy). He already has a son born in 2009.

If Prince Emanuele Filiberto doesn't have male Heirs, Prince Aimone will one day become Head of the House of Savoy anyway, even if one does consider Vittorio Emanuele as the current Head and Emanuele Filiberto as the rightful Heir.

Vecchiolarry · #98 09-24-2009, 11:26 PM

Hi Marsel,

Thank you also for your update on the Savoys.
VE seems to be a total disgrace all around and his son seems to be a 'laughing stock' - "A Dancing Fool" is how I've heard him described.

Prince Aimone and Princess Olga now seem to be the ones to put our money on!!

Larry

amedea · #99 09-25-2009, 04:47 AM

Not only the other "Italian" Royal houses have problems of visibility and of leadership, they all are traditionally against the idea of Italy as an unite nation; all their claims can be only on a part of the Italian state, so to restore them Italy sould be divided.
As far as Queens of Italy "blushing in disgrace in their graves for the descendants" I must say that I feel Queen Maria Josè has some responsabilities in all this mess: the education of VE was committed to her and she seems not having stressed notions like honour and duty in name of a certain modernity. She also lived enough to see how VE had become, how Marina Doria was, how VE behaved towards his father the king and she never took distances.

**MAfan** · #**100** 09-25-2009, 08:56 AM

You're right, Marsel, I have forgotten the 1969 "incident" (nice euphemism, in other times the "incident" would have been treason or an attempted coup d'Etat).

About the second marriage of Prince Amedeo to Princess Silvia, it was authorized by King Umberto II in 1982 or 1983; but the only condition was to wait for them to marry until the Roman Rota had annulled his marriage to Princess Claude. Amedeo and Silvia waited, and married after the anulement in 1987; so this wedding is fully dinastyc.