Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts

[Duc_et_Pair]

Eeeermmm... The risirgimento by Garibaldi was exactly to kick out the foreign royals (the Bourbons, the Habsburgers, etc,) and unite under an Italian royal family: the Savoias.

The prospect of a new Savoia monarchy is very low but to reinstate a foreign royal family which was exactly toppled to unite Italy really is the most extreme position in that spectrum and utmost unlikely.

The only chance is a Prince Umberto as the one and only undisputed head of the House of Italy.

[Frozen Royalist]

Well, still the fact that there are several monarchist parties in Italy like the Monarchist Alliance, which has 110,000 members as of 2012, does show that there is an appetite for a constitutional monarchy in the nation. I know that the likelihood of a restoration is absurdly low in the next few years but in the end there is still an appetite and several movements. Heck I've read several articles on the internet about Italian monarchists and their movements, I think that some have even received a good number of votes, not enough to get into parliament but a large number of votes roughly in tens of thousands.

So much for my Bourbon idea then...

-Frozen Royalist

Some Articles in Question:
D. Maggioni, Blocco Nazionale: ''Porto i valori della monarchia'' - MerateOnline

Elezioni regionali 2010: anche Alleanza Monarchica (stella e corona) pronta a correre!

L'Unione monarchica italiana: "Il 2 giugno è data sbagliata per festeggiare la Repubblica"

Cambia l'aria verso i Savoia: si tratta sul rientro delle salme

Hey Duc_et_Pair, you mind to further elaborate on your Prince Umberto statement please because the one that is currently alive was born in 2009. So are you suggesting that a kid that is only 9 years old take over as head of the House of Savoy-Aosta? Other than that I am having a hard time understanding the statement sir.

-Frozen Royalist

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Frozen Royalist

[...]

Hey Duc_et_Pair, you mind to further elaborate on your Prince Umberto statement please because the one that is currently alive was born in 2009. So are you suggesting that a kid that is only 9 years old take over as head of the House of Savoy-Aosta? Other than that I am having a hard time understanding the statement sir.

-Frozen Royalist

At the moment the line of succession is:

Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia (75), The Duke of Savoy
Emanuele Filiberto di Savoia (45)
-----------------------------------------------------------
Amedeo di Savoia-Aosta (75), The Duke of Aosta
Aimone di Savoia-Aosta (50)
Umberto di Savoia-Aosta (8)
Amedeo di Savoia-Aosta (6)

Because Emanuele Filiberto has no sons, once little Umberto will become the most senior male agnate in the House of Savoia. The rivalry between the branches Savoia and Savoia-Aosta will disappear like snow for the sun. (Unless Emanuele Filiberto does like King Michael of Romania and drafts his own private succession to get his daughters in line).

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

(Unless Emanuele Filiberto does like King Michael of Romania and drafts his own private succession to get his daughters in line).

And in so doing brings the Italian Royal Family in line with every reigning and ruling house in Europe, and in line with the minds of most 'ordinary' citizens of Italy.

And around-and-around-and-around we go ..

[Frozen Royalist]

Well we're going to have to wait for at least a decade then if we go with that plan. Still it would be nice for a change in attitude towards monarchism in Italy, I just wish that article 139 would just go away.

In the meantime all we could is campaign and support the House of Savoy-Aosta.

It is nice that there is at least one pro-monarchy movement with at least 110,000 members like the Monarchist Alliance though. Nice to see it isn't a total lost cause.

-Frozen Royalist

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Frozen Royalist

Well even though there are low prospects for monarchism in the country what about the Monarchist Alliance, the organization does have over 110,000 members and is an Italian monarchist party. You've got to admit that at least 110,000 out of 60,589,445, the Italian population as of 2016, isn't too bad. It would be nice for there to be some polls, I would be surprised if they received more than 10% considering all the factions and what nots that would influence the majority of people to be in favor of a republic.

I have a couple a few ideas that may help Italian monarchism;

Idea 1: Put somebody else in charge of the House of Savoy and begin restoring relations between the Italian people and the House of Savoy.

Idea 2: Support a different dynasty, I have the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies in mind.

Idea 3: Do something about article 139, I don't care if it to defend a "democratic" system, the whole concept of the article is undemocratic in my opinion because it doesn't allow people self determination. Honestly it's okay to allow separatist parties to break up Italy but it isn't okay for there to be another referendum on what government should Italy have, talk about double standards. Actually it might not happen the monarchist cause in the long run but at least the idea of the referendum won't be illegal.

-Frozen Royalist

P.S. I know the odds are against us in Italy but I don't see the idea of a new Kingdom of Italy as something impossible to achieve. Yes it would be difficult but who says you can't try? Look I'm very optimistic and my glass is always half full, no matter what the situation is or the circumstances, I'll always refuse to throw in the towel.

No pro-Savoia monarchists association or party has so many members in Italy.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Eeeermmm... The risirgimento by Garibaldi was exactly to kick out the foreign royals (the Bourbons, the Habsburgers, etc,) and unite under an Italian royal family: the Savoias.

The prospect of a new Savoia monarchy is very low but to reinstate a foreign royal family which was exactly toppled to unite Italy really is the most extreme position in that spectrum and utmost unlikely.

The only chance is a Prince Umberto as the one and only undisputed head of the House of Italy.

The Bourbons were hardly seen as a "foreign ruling House" in 1860 and remain quite popular in Naples even today.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

The Bourbons were hardly seen as a "foreign ruling House" in 1860 and remain quite popular in Naples even today.

They were seen as Spanish intruders and joyfully kicked out of the country. If that is not true, why are they then not today's Kings of Italy?

[Frozen Royalist]

I never said the Monarchist Alliance was pro-Savoy, all they wish to do is reestablish a constitutional monarchy in the nation of Italy. Granted there are probably Savoyists and anti-Savoyists in the organization but the MA is primarily just an organization wishing to reestablish a constitutional monarchy. Besides even Franco Caccarelli, who is the party's current president, has come out and said he wasn't a supporter of the former king's oldest son, so you can't really call that pro-Savoy now can you.

IMO I think it would be best to support the House of Savoy-Aosta at his point because it least they aren't badly controversial plus, like what Duc_et_Pair said, they aren't really seen as foreigners. Plus to be fair the Kingdom of the Two-Sicilies wasn't exactly one of the best Italian states at the moment, they were still an absolute monarchy and they were rather backwards with a high amount of illiteracy among other things such as corruption.

-Frozen Royalist

[Duc_et_Pair]

Exactly. It was not for nothing that the risorgimento started in the Two Sicilies and found fertile soil.

[Frozen Royalist]

Truth be told it was rather hard to find membership numbers even when I did my extensive research on Italian monarchist parties. I did find an organization called the Savoy Honor Guard has a total of 5,000 members which could be better or could be worst depending on your views. As for the Monarchist Alliance, all I can go with for their membership total is 110,000 as of 2012, I got that information from wikipedia and I have been looking for other websites throughout the internet for another statement of how many members in the organization/party. Heck I found information as early as 2017 on the Monarchist Alliance but they didn't state anything about how many members. I tried looking on their blogs and tumblrs and nothing really there about membership total and as for their website it apparently no longer exists.

I honestly do hope they have at least 110,000 members because I'm tired of the constant bad news when it comes to monarchism lately with the former King of Romania dying and the Serbian polls being outrageously rigged, seriously who the heck rigs a poll for something like that.

-Frozen Royalist

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

They were seen as Spanish intruders and joyfully kicked out of the country. If that is not true, why are they then not today's Kings of Italy?

The Kings of Two Sicilies were speaking the Naples dialect and very popular in their Kingdom and still are in the south. The myth they were " intruders" was built after the Risorgimento.
The real intruders were those that support Garibaldi.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Frozen Royalist

Truth be told it was rather hard to find membership numbers even when I did my extensive research on Italian monarchist parties. I did find an organization called the Savoy Honor Guard has a total of 5,000 members which could be better or could be worst depending on your views. As for the Monarchist Alliance, all I can go with for their membership total is 110,000 as of 2012, I got that information from wikipedia and I have been looking for other websites throughout the internet for another statement of how many members in the organization/party. Heck I found information as early as 2017 on the Monarchist Alliance but they didn't state anything about how many members. I tried looking on their blogs and tumblrs and nothing really there about membership total and as for their website it apparently no longer exists.

I honestly do hope they have at least 110,000 members because I'm tired of the constant bad news when it comes to monarchism lately with the former King of Romania dying and the Serbian polls being outrageously rigged, seriously who the heck rigs a poll for something like that.

-Frozen Royalist

Unfortunately the reality is much different and the question of numbers is just one aspect. Not only that the pro-Savoy associations/groups/parties are not really big but their influence in the society is not great either. The last important royalist leader Sergio Boschiero died three years ago and today the only significant royalist voice is of prof. Mola.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

The Kings of Two Sicilies were speaking the Naples dialect and very popular in their Kingdom and still are in the south. The myth they were " intruders" was built after the Risorgimento.
The real intruders were those that support Garibaldi.

Whatever the reason, the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies ended 157 years ago. The referendum on the monarchy in 1946 showed the best results in favour of the Savoias in exactly the former Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. For so far the "loyalty" to the Bourbons.

[Marengo]

Time to move on...

This thread is about the house of Savoy, their conflicts, heirs and restoration movements. This thread is not about the Italian houses of Bourbon.

We encourage our posters to maintain some connection with reality. And the reality is that there is no movement that works towards the break-up of the Italian republic coupled to the return to Bourbon, Habsburg and Papal states. People who are interested in discussing alternative histories or realities are kindly requested to take their cause elsewhere. Forums dedicated to alternate historical fiction can be found here:

Alternate History Websites, Discussion Boards and Blogs

[Cory]

The royalists supporting Prince Amedeo are highly divided these days between those that defend the official line of Unione Monarchica Italiana and those that consider La Consulta dei Senatori del Regno the best representation for their ideas. The question of voting or not at the next elections is just the pretext for the new dissensions between the two groups. It is not known of any intervention of Prince Amedeo or Prince Aimone to bring again unity among their supporters.

[Frozen Royalist]

Well ignoring the screwiness between the House of Savoy and the House of Savoy-Aosta, are there any polls whatsoever about what the Italians feel about retaining their albeit flawed republic or restoring their rather complicated monarchy? Just a simple monarchy or republic opinion poll is all I'm asking for. If there isn't one that's fine it's just that I'm rather interested when it comes to figures and numbers to these sort of things.

-Frozen Royalist

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Frozen Royalist

Well ignoring the screwiness between the House of Savoy and the House of Savoy-Aosta, are there any polls whatsoever about what the Italians feel about retaining their albeit flawed republic or restoring their rather complicated monarchy? Just a simple monarchy or republic opinion poll is all I'm asking for. If there isn't one that's fine it's just that I'm rather interested when it comes to figures and numbers to these sort of things.

-Frozen Royalist

Well, what did not happen in Germany, Russia, Austria, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, etc. was done in Italy: asking the people about the monarchy. With a convincing majority was chosen for a republic. For the rest you only need to stick out your antenna to judge the mood in Italy.

Many, many new political parties have been established with an enormous variety of core interests: from Alleanza Nationale to 5 Stelle, from Forza Italia to Lega Nord, from the Greens to the Communists, etc. The fact that no monarchist party had any substantial appeal on the electorate is the answer on your question.

[Frozen Royalist]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Well, what did not happen in Germany, Russia, Austria, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, etc. was done in Italy: asking the people about the monarchy. With a convincing majority was chosen for a republic. For the rest you only need to stick out your antenna to judge the mood in Italy.

Many, many new political parties have been established with an enormous variety of core interests: from Alleanza Nationale to 5 Stelle, from Forza Italia to Lega Nord, from the Greens to the Communists, etc. The fact that no monarchist party had any substantial appeal on the electorate is the answer on your question.

Honestly I blame the facts that Italians have banned any more referendums on the form of government, the rather ugly division between the Savoys and the Savoy-Aostas, and the fact that the media is just pro-republican on the fact that no monarchist party has made a dent. There are organizations and movements they just have to choose a faction and unite in my opinion.

-Frozen Royalist

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Frozen Royalist

Honestly I blame the facts that Italians have banned any more referendums on the form of government, the rather ugly division between the Savoys and the Savoy-Aostas, and the fact that the media is just pro-republican on the fact that no monarchist party has made a dent. There are organizations and movements they just have to choose a faction and unite in my opinion.

-Frozen Royalist

Referendums are held when the Constitution has to be changed. Only two years ago there was a referendum on the proposed constitutional changes (mainly about the composition of Parliament as well the division of powers between the State and the regions). The voters rejected this proposal.

Earlier there were two other referendums on the proposed changes of Constitution in 2001 (devolution of powers to the regions - approved) and in 2006 (more power for the Prime Minister - rejected).

So when there is a desire to turn Italy in a monarchy again, a referendum will be needed because a change of the Constitution is needed and then it is up to the Italians to vote for it. But a change begins when there is a majority in Parliament with a desire to topple the office of the President of the Republic and change it by a person who is determined by hereditary succession.

And after that, the Italians have to approve it. Preferrably not only in general vote but also in as much regions as possible. When the monarchy wins the referendum in general vote but a substantial number of regions voted against, then there is no convincing result for a stable monarchy.

See the Belgian referendum about the return of King Leopold III which the nationwide result was "Ja / Oui" (with a 58%) but.... this was only achieved in the more populated Dutch-speaking part. The result in the French-speaking part as well in the capital was a "Nee / Non". King Leopold III wisely decided to abdicate in favour of his son Prince Baudouin, to save the monarchy. Despite the (at first sight) convicing result of 58% pro his return.