Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

The talking about restoration leads to nothing: most likely the Savoys themselves are not at all interested. They honour their illustrious House's glorious memory and that was it, I think.

Not only was Italy only for a limited time one united kingdom: only for 75 years (the current republic is 72 years old). Like in Germany it has overpowered centuries old smaller states and as the separatists of Lega Nord show, regional tensions still are apparent in today's Italy.

No matter an eventual (and unlikely) overhelming popularity of a Savoia pretender: as said earlier, it is hard to see the likes of the anti-establishment and direct-democratism propaging Movimento 5 Stelle, the separatistic Lega Nord, the green-left Sinistra Italiana, the progressive Articulo Uno or the social-democrats of Partido Uno ever vote to end the Italian Republic...

And the most important thing: King Umberto accepted the deposition of the monarchy and urged the Italians to serve the new republic. With that he factually accepted that times have changed and that Italy would never be a monarchy again.

There is no debate about restoration of Monarchy in Italy and the Savoy Family is not particularly popular. Only in the south the Bourbons have still supporters.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

In all fairness: Albania and Montenegro are small states, amongst the poorest in Europe and with a democracy still in development. The current state of Montenegro is only 11 years old (sedition from Serbia in 2006). It is impossible to compare that with Italy, one of the giants in the European Union, the world's 7th biggest economy. What Leka and Nikola possibly can "achieve" in their small, and "overseeable" countries is unthinkable for the big complicated patchwork of regions and former states which together form the arch-difficult Italian Republic.

I think the point was that former royals working in conjunction with governments to achieve goals is the way forward, regardless of monarchical aspirations, as the time for revolutions returning monarchs onto thrones in Europe is (hopefully) long passed.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Point made and agreed.

[Cory]

Certainly at this moment there is no debate about Restoration. Each time somebody speaks about the Savoy Family the Risorgimento debate starts and then it is followed about the 1922-1946 period debate too.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Forget any restoration. Soon the Republic will be older than Kingdom of Italia ever became. I hope that the unity will return in the dynasty, that young Prince Umberto di Savoia-Aosta will be the undisputed chef of the House of Savoy. That will not happen when Emanuele Filiberto gets the idea to change the rules, like Carlo di Borbone-Due Sicilie did, or like Michael of Romania.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Forget any restoration. Soon the Republic will be older than Kingdom of Italia ever became. I hope that the unity will return in the dynasty, that young Prince Umberto di Savoia-Aosta will be the undisputed chef of the House of Savoy. That will not happen when Emanuele Filiberto gets the idea to change the rules, like Carlo di Borbone-Due Sicilie did, or like Michael of Romania.

The idea seems to be there anyhow but the Italians will probably just ignore it.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Of couse the Italians will ignore it. Their power is in the Palazzo Chigi. It is only interesting for people with interest in the past. The princes di Savoia will not be different to the Borgheses, to the Pallavicinis, to the Aldobrandinis, to the Borbone di Parmas, the Ruspolis, the Orsinis, etc. A living embodiment of a glorious past. And that was it.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Of couse the Italians will ignore it. Their power is in the Palazzo Chigi. It is only interesting for people with interest in the past. The princes di Savoia will not be different to the Borgheses, to the Pallavicinis, to the Aldobrandinis, to the Borbone di Parmas, the Ruspolis, the Orsinis, etc. A living embodiment of a glorious past. And that was it.

The Bourbons are much more popular in the south than the Savoys in the north.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

The Bourbons are much more popular in the south than the Savoys in the north.

Which only underlines the impossibility of a restoration. The Savoys and the Hohenzollerns both had short-lived new empires which reduced all the centuries old dynasties to vassals.

And even the Borbones: which one? Carlo and his daughters? Or Pedro and his sons? Even in one former royal family there is a dispute. The same counts for other former Italian families like the Borbone di Parmas or the Habsburgers (who ruled parts of Italy belonging to the Austrian-Hungarian
empire. Or the large Papal State, which saw its territory almost swallowed up by the Kingdom of Italy.

Conclusion: forget a restoration.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Which only underlines the impossibility of a restoration. The Savoys and the Hohenzollerns both had short-lived new empires which reduced all the centuries old dynasties to vassals.

And even the Borbones: which one? Carlo and his daughters? Or Pedro and his sons? Even in one former royal family there is a dispute. The same counts for other former Italian families like the Borbone di Parmas or the Habsburgers (who ruled parts of Italy belonging to the Austrian-Hungarian
empire. Or the large Papal State, which saw its territory almost swallowed up by the Kingdom of Italy.

Conclusion: forget a restoration.

A restoration in Italy is very unlikely in the next few years.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Which only underlines the impossibility of a restoration. The Savoys and the Hohenzollerns both had short-lived new empires which reduced all the centuries old dynasties to vassals.

Tthe difference is that in the German Empire the other Families continued to reign not like in Italy where they where drown out and the various Kingdom's, Grand Duchies etc still existed. It was more a federation similar then todays federal Republic of Germany.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Tthe difference is that in the German Empire the other Families continued to reign not like in Italy where they where drown out and the various Kingdom's, Grand Duchies etc still existed. It was more a federation similar then todays federal Republic of Germany.

Yes, you are right but that is only the theory. You can not deny, that the once sovereign King of Württemberg, the once sovereign Grand-Duke von Sachsen-Weimar und Eisenach, the once Soverein fürst von Reuß, etc. all lost their Sovereignity in 1871 and became only titular heads of former independent states.

The outcome of both processes was the same: a new German Kaiserreich and a new Italian Kingdom which replaced all the former states.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Yes, you are right but that is only the theory. You can not deny, that the once sovereign King of Württemberg, the once sovereign Grand-Duke von Sachsen-Weimar und Eisenach, the once Soverein fürst von Reuß, etc. all lost their Sovereignity in 1871 and became only titular heads of former independent states.

The outcome of both processes was the same: a new German Kaiserreich and a new Italian Kingdom which replaced all the former states.

In Italy all the other states disappeared and only Piedmont than Italy remained. In Germany was not the same.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

In Italy all the other states disappeared and only Piedmont than Italy remained. In Germany was not the same.

Piedmont? Did that not just merge into the Kingdom of Sardinia, already ruled by the Savoias? Meaning that also Piedmont became part of Italy anyway.

In my opinion only two independent Italian states survived the unification: the Principauté de Monaco and the Holy See (as successor of the Papal State, which nevertheless lost an immense territory).

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Piedmont? Did that not just merge into the Kingdom of Sardinia, already ruled by the Savoias? Meaning that also Piedmont became part of Italy anyway.

In my opinion only two independent Italian states survived the unification: the Principauté de Monaco and the Holy See (as successor of the Papal State, which nevertheless lost an immense territory).

The Principality of Monaco was not one if the Italian states like The Papal States.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

The Principality of Monaco was not one if the Italian states like The Papal States.

In 1860 the Kingdom of Sardinia ceded to France:
- the Principauté de Monaco (at that time a protectorate of Sardinia)
- parts of the Provence (for an example the region of Nice and the towns of Menton and Roquebrune)
- parts of Savoie.

In 1861 he Prince of Monaco gave up protests against that fact that Sardinia gave parts of the Provence (for an example the region of Nice and the towns of Menton and Roquebrune) to France, as these were parts of the principality. As a result France "rewarded" the Prince by recognizing his principality, now reduced to a village on a rock, competely surrounded by France.

So to some extend we can say today's Holy See and today's Principauté de Monaco survived Garibaldi's "risorgimento", both reduced to a miniscule entity.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

In 1860 the Kingdom of Sardinia ceded to France:
- the Principauté de Monaco (at that time a protectorate of Sardinia)
- parts of the Provence (for an example the region of Nice and the towns of Menton and Roquebrune)
- parts of Savoie.

In 1861 he Prince of Monaco gave up protests against that fact that Sardinia gave parts of the Provence (for an example the region of Nice and the towns of Menton and Roquebrune) to France, as these were parts of the principality. As a result France "rewarded" the Prince by recognizing his principality, now reduced to a village on a rock, competely surrounded by France.

So to some extend we can say today's Holy See and today's Principauté de Monaco survived Garibaldi's "risorgimento", both reduced to a miniscule entity.

The Principality of Monaco had never been considered as one if the Italian states. ThecProtectorate of the Kingdom.of Sardinia was only between 1815 and 1860.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Anyway, it does not matter, we agree: there is no any prospect for a monarchy in Italy.

[Cory]

Controversial decision of UMI asking its supporters not to vote at the next elections:


http://www.unionemonarchicaitaliana....politiche-2018


La Consulta dei Senatori del Regno leaded by Prof. Mola did not agree with the decision of UMI. For the first time in the last few years there is a disagreement between these two organizations that both support Prince Amedeo.

[Frozen Royalist]

Well even though there are low prospects for monarchism in the country what about the Monarchist Alliance, the organization does have over 110,000 members and is an Italian monarchist party. You've got to admit that at least 110,000 out of 60,589,445, the Italian population as of 2016, isn't too bad. It would be nice for there to be some polls, I would be surprised if they received more than 10% considering all the factions and what nots that would influence the majority of people to be in favor of a republic.

I have a couple a few ideas that may help Italian monarchism;

Idea 1: Put somebody else in charge of the House of Savoy and begin restoring relations between the Italian people and the House of Savoy.

Idea 2: Support a different dynasty, I have the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies in mind.

Idea 3: Do something about article 139, I don't care if it to defend a "democratic" system, the whole concept of the article is undemocratic in my opinion because it doesn't allow people self determination. Honestly it's okay to allow separatist parties to break up Italy but it isn't okay for there to be another referendum on what government should Italy have, talk about double standards. Actually it might not happen the monarchist cause in the long run but at least the idea of the referendum won't be illegal.

-Frozen Royalist

P.S. I know the odds are against us in Italy but I don't see the idea of a new Kingdom of Italy as something impossible to achieve. Yes it would be difficult but who says you can't try? Look I'm very optimistic and my glass is always half full, no matter what the situation is or the circumstances, I'll always refuse to throw in the towel.