Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by JR76

Wasn't he buried with the Royal seal?


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So it has been said.
It was said that in his will King Umberto wanted the Royal Seal to be buried with him and that one person close to him (although his identity isn't known) put the seal under the King's armpit soon before the coffin was closed and sealed.
However, it isn't definitely known whether the story is true or not. Some say that it is true, other (i.e. his son Vittorio Emanuele, IIRC) say that it's false.
And I believe that unless the last will of the King is made public, in order to see if it contains the clause about the burial of the seal with him, or unless the coffin of the King is opened to check if it contains the seal or not, we will never know for sure.

[Cory]

Anyhow the Italians has never been more indifferent to this Family as now.

[LadyRohan]

These statements really should be backed up by facts, as they are not facts on their own.

[MAfan]

It may not be a fact, but nevertheless it is true, Italian people are mostly indifferent about the House of Savoy, they simply don't care about it.

Vittorio Emanuele and Emanuele Filiberto aren't taken seriously by most; Amedeo in the last years made the news only when he was punched by his cousin at the wedding of Felipe and Letizia of Spain and when he had his out-of-wedlock daughter in 2006; Aimone is virtually unknown; the Savoy Princesses as a whole are also mainly ignored (with the only exception, maybe, of Maria Gabriella).

[Duc_et_Pair]

That counts for monarchies too. The average Dutchman, Belgian or Briton is indifferent about Willem-Alexander, Philippe or Elizabeth II. Not that they want to see them removed or so, but it is really also not part of their daily life. Like so many Americans could not care less about Barack and Michelle Obama. So it is no wonder that someone from Bologna or Bari, commuting to work and worrying about the bills, does not care less about a Savoia-Aosta Prince here or there.

[maria-olivia]

I was learning italian for two weeks in Firenze in 2006 when V.E. had problems. They spoke about it in the newspaper ...

In Belgium on place royale I saw Princess Marie Gabrielle speaking about her new book.

I went to the greatest library in Firenze and asked for , they said oh savoie on the left side on the back. There was only one book and not Marie Gabriella's.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

That counts for monarchies too. The average Dutchman, Belgian or Briton is indifferent about Willem-Alexander, Philippe or Elizabeth II. Not that they want to see them removed or so, but it is really also not part of their daily life. Like so many Americans could not care less about Barack and Michelle Obama. So it is no wonder that someone from Bologna or Bari, commuting to work and worrying about the bills, does not care less about a Savoia-Aosta Prince here or there.

I don't think you can compare a reigning monarchy with a deposed dynasty. The average Briton may be indifferent (or not) to Queen Elizabeth II, but everybody knows who QEII is. After all, her face is even in the coins and bills people use every day. On the other hand, I suppose there may be Italians who are not even aware of who Amedeo or Emanuele Filiberto are.

[LadyRohan]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

I don't think you can compare a reigning monarchy with a deposed dynasty. The average Briton may be indifferent (or not) ro Queen Elizabeth II, but everybody knows who QEII is. After all, her face is even in the coins and bills people use every day. On the other hand, I suppose there may be Italians who are no even aware of who Amedeo or Emanuele Filiberto are.

I agree with the first part of this, most people are indifferent to most people in positions of power or influence, because it simply isn't important for our everyday lives. My experience is that Italians in general knows who the former Crown Prince is, but that they do not add much value or weight to him or any other member of the former ruling dynasty.

That being said, if asked whether or not they want yet another President nobody cares about or a restored monarchy under a restored Savoy, I am fairly sure the numbers will be different.

[Cory]

The majority of people in Italy is not interested in who is the Savoy Pretender to the Throne.

[MAfan]

More than this, most people isn't interested at all in changing the form of government and restoring the monarchy.

[Cory]

That's very true when we speak about Italy.

[MAfan]

And that's exactly what we are talking about.

[LadyRohan]

As this section relates to the restoration of the monarchy, and succession to the headship of the house of Savoy, it is however interesting to lay out the things we know, despite a seeming mountain to climb before an Italian kingdom is again proclaimed. Unfortunately, as has been so clearly illustrated by recent years history, and a large number of posts in the Italian section of these forums, the fight for the headship of the family overshadows the cause itself. In all fairness, if one excludes the possibility of a monarchical restoration, I don't see the problem letting the branches disagree, and split, like happens in any family in the world from time to time. At some point in the future, feuding families tend to reconcile on their own. If not, the current rules of headship indicate that in a future decades away, headship of the House of Savoy will transfer to the Duke of Aosta and his branch.
For now, Italy still has a former Crown Prince, who himself has a son, who himself has two daughters. Whether one approves or not, that is the last recognised resemblance of an Italian Royal Family.
The questions to follow is whether dynastic approval for the Crown Princes marriage was given, and whether succession would be changed to accommodate girls. This is the basis for a circular debate that frankly interests very few people, and is neither helpful, nor practically resolvable in the current Italian republic. What remains then is supporters deadlocked in positions I'm sure they feel they can validate in one direction or another, but that is seldom explained based on facts, but rather on personal taste and preference, i.e references to the Prince of Venice and Piedmont as 'that dancing dude' etc.

I always find it interesting that many people seem more interested in supporting a person than a cause. That is one of the reasons monarchies often fail, and why it is hard to restore them once they're taken down, if we link them so firmly to one person, and not as a way of organizing societies. The institution should be bigger than the person, as proven by King Juan Carlos in 2014, by abdicating the throne of Spain in favour of his successor.
As is extensively explained at Headship of the House of Savoy - Savoy Succession Dispute - Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia - Victor Emmanuel of Savoy - Amedeo di Savoia Aosta - Amadeus Savoy - Head of the House of Savoy of Italy - Regalis - Savoy Succession, headship of the House of Savoy lies with the Crown Prince, then the Prince of Venice, before it will cross to the Duke of Aosta and their family. That is, unless something new were to arise in the 40-50 years ahead. Looking at the history, and the unpredictabilty of future events, it would seem silly to sit idly by and wait for a transfer of headship upon the demise of the current Prince, time that might be better spent advocating the cause of monarchy, in a nation that was once a proud kingdom, and which is being abused by generations of politicians, who could do with a bit of a political shake-up, and a new order to their chaotic existence.

Finally, I would just add that whatever the future holds for the Italian Royal Family, and whatever they have done in the past, neither of these two men, the Crown Prince and the Duke of Aosta, are very fine examples of moral restraint, and their failings over the years is evident in courtcases, illegitimate children etc. I would hope that any future monarchy, or even just a more healthy House of Savoy, would be allowed to be based on love-based unions and peaceful solutions to conflict. That would greatly benefit the family itself, their representation of Italian history and any prospects of a future Italian kingdom.

[Cory]

Led Tv Reviews: The monarchists: Emanuele Filiberto is television, nothing with us – LaPresse

[Frozen Royalist]

So are we still shunned in Italy? I'm just curious about any possible updates about the very very very slim chance of restoration in Italy.

-Frozen Royalist

P.S. Just out of curiosity what about the groups like the Monarchist Alliance (Alleanza Monarchica in Italian) which has apparently 110,000 members as of 2012, I mean that has to mean something.

[Duc_et_Pair]

When you see the Duke of Parma or the Duke of Calabria visiting former realms, they are met with reference, the Mayor in full ornate greeting them, Pontifical Mass is said in the local cathedral and there are receptions in honour of said royals. But that is culture, that is politesse, that is acknowledgement of the historic role a family played, etc. It has nothing to do with any desire for a restoration.

What does not help is that the Savoias and the Savoia-Aostas are bitterly divided, with the Savoia part behaving quite unconventional. What also does not play well is that some royals are ostentatiously so trash in their appearances (Marina Doria and Camilla Crociani) that every presidential spouse in the Palazzo Quirinale oozes more class and dignity in their little finger than the whole of Marina and Camilla together).

The only hope is that finally the monarchists will assemble behind Prince Aimone and Princess Olga (née Princess of Greece) and their son Prince Umberto. But I am afraid that we will see a furtherer split, when Emanuele Filiberto goes the Two-Sicilies or the Romanian way and suddenly changes the succession to his own preference, so that his daughters will succeed him, making the rift in the dynasty complete.

As long as the Savoia-Aostas are so fragmented, any chance on a restoration is zero.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

When you see the Duke of Parma or the Duke of Calabria visiting former realms, they are met with reference, the Mayor in full ornate greeting them, Pontifical Mass is said in the local cathedral and there are receptions in honour of said royals. But that is culture, that is politesse, that is acknowledgement of the historic role a family played, etc. It has nothing to do with any desire for a restoration.

What does not help is that the Savoias and the Savoia-Aostas are bitterly divided, with the Savoia part behaving quite unconventional. What also does not play well is that some royals are ostentatiously so trash in their appearances (Marina Doria and Camilla Crociani) that every presidential spouse in the Palazzo Quirinale oozes more class and dignity in their little finger than the whole of Maria and Camilla together).

The only hope is that finally the monarchists will assemble behind Prince Aimone and Princess Olga (née Princess of Greece) and their son Prince Umberto. But I am afraid that we will see a furtherer split, when Emanuele Filiberto goes the Two-Sicilies or the Romanian way and suddenly changes the succession to his own preference, so that his daughters will succeed him, making the rift in the dynasty complete.

As long as the Savoia-Aostas are so fragmented, any chance on a restoration is zero.

Well fingers crossed for them assembling behind the Aostas and then go on to prove Padre Pio right.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by JR76

Well fingers crossed for them assembling behind the Aostas and then go on to prove Padre Pio right.

The other way is also possible: assemble behind Emanuele Filiberto and eventually -in mutual agreement- behind his daughters. But I am afraid the Aostas will not be that forthcoming towards the Savoias, but you never know.

Prince Aimone is pursuing his career in Russia and the Scandivian countries: link. He will not have unlimited time for the monarchist movement, I think.

[Blog Real]

Monarchists united with Berlusconi. Emanuele Filiberto minister for Italy
https://translate.google.pt/translat...ia-516741.html

[Duc_et_Pair]

The chances on restoration were already zero: the Cinque Stelle movement of Beppe Grillo will never support a monarchy. Neither the separatist Lega Nord, or the Greens, or the Socialists, rallying with a despicable figure as Berlusconi will certainly not help.

In Bulgaria fomer King Simeon became Prime Minister. In no time he not only blew all goodwill but also every chance for the Royal House. A minister is always partisan. A minister has to defend policy initiated by the Government, he has to defend unpopular decision, he has to withstand parliamentary opposition.

Taking a -per definition- partisan political role is killing for any royal aspiration, as anno 2018 there is only place for strict constitutional monarchs in a 99% ceremonial role.