Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts

[Cory]

Vittorio-Emanuele di Savoia sees his grandaughters as being in the Line of Succession which has nothing to do with the Salic Law tradition and laws of the House of Savoy.

[LadyRohan]

He is basically saying that any Royal House that continues to exclude women from any order of succession, pretender or actual, is out of touch and it needs to be amended. If Italy was a kingdom today, this would of course be done. If it becomes one tomorrow, it would surely be under a different one than the outdated and sexist salic law provisions.

[Cory]

The Laws of the House of Savoy can't be changed by a descendant of the House.

[eya]

We have seen that most monarchies in Europe have changed the succession. The first child regardless of gender. Certainly in Italy or elsewhere restore the monarchy there will again be changes in succession and Laws.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by eya

We have seen that most monarchies in Europe have changed the succession. The first child regardless of gender. Certainly in Italy or elsewhere restore the monarchy there will again be changes in succession and Laws.

The monarchies themselves did not change it. It were the Governments which did so, under pressure of the "thou-shalt-not-discriminate"-zelots which will not stop here anyway because the "discrimination" remains ("why the eldest child and not the youngest child?" and ultimatelty "why Miss Bernadotte and not Miss X from Stockholm?") and can only end when the monarchy is broken down.

[eya]

Sorry I did not understand exactly what you want to say .. Anyway what I'm saying is that I know that governments change laws. When monarchies return may not apply laws that were in force before 70-100 years.

[Andy T]

It really doesn't matter one iota what Emanuele Filiberto thinks about the succession, or what the house rules say, or what the last constitution of the monarchy says, or what the monarchists say. In the highly unlikely event of a restoration of the monarchy -in Italy or anywhere else - the citizens, directly and/or through their elected representatives will decide on the rules and the individual.
In Great Britain in 1689, in France in 1830, in Spain in 1975, the most acceptable candidate was placed on the throne and the established "order" ignored. Queen Victoria Eugenie of Spain was said to have argued that the interests of the country, the monarchy and the dynasty, in that order, all come before the individual.

[Cory]

Until the Monarchy will be restored nobody can change the Laws of the House of Savoy.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

The monarchies themselves did not change it. It were the Governments which did so, under pressure of the "thou-shalt-not-discriminate"-zelots which will not stop here anyway because the "discrimination" remains ("why the eldest child and not the eldest child?" and ultimatelty "why Miss Bernadotte and not Miss X from Stockholm?") and can only end when the monarchy is broken down.

With the exception of Sweden, where the King is not part of the legislative process, all other European countries that changed primogeniture laws did so with the monarch's assent, which is formally required for any law to come into force. Therefore, one can say that the monarch agreed (at least formally) to the change, even though the initiative to change the law may have come from the politicians.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

With the exception of Sweden, where the King is not part of the legislative process, all other European countries that changed primogeniture laws did so with the monarch's assent, which is formally required for any law to come into force. Therefore, one can say that the monarch agreed (at least formally) to the change, even though the initiative to change the law may have come from the politicians.

A refusal to sign the democratically agreed changed Constitution is the same as signing the own death warrant. So of course the monarch had to sign it, whether they liked it or not. As head of the dynasty they can have a total different opinion about it, but like we see in Sweden: the unbroken male bloodline of Swedish Kings continues with Prince Carl Philip. His niece Estelle Westling, pardon: Bernadotte, will set a new bloodline on the throne. That may be clear.

[Cory]

So obviously a Head of a Royal House can't really change the rules. Not to speak about descendants with no dynastic rights. .

[Andy T]

A "Royal House" is quite distinct from a ruling dynasty in a monarchy. Any "laws" that govern succession in a ruling dynasty in a monarchy are one thing but in a republic, as these laws have been abolished, they no longer exist. There are no rules because there is no monarchy! In real terms, a "royal house" which doesn't reign has no constitutional significance whatsoever unless (as in the case of Montenegro, for example) it is accorded a constitutional status.

Therefore, any of these old rules are only "applied", if at all, by the mutual consent of those concerned. Alternatively, power to make/change rules is vested, again by mutual consent of those affected, in a recognised head of a house. If it's possible for any head of a house to establish rules regarding succession or marriage, it's also perfectly possible for a later head of house to change them. If it's not possible to change anything in theory but a head decides to change them in practice, no laws say s/he's wrong because....there are no laws! It's a jungle, a mess, a free-for-all.

As time has gone on, we've seen various rival claimants emerge in Italy, France, Russia, Saxony and Romania, to name but a few, and so it will continue. In the Middle Ages, they formed factions, raised armies and fought wars to settle these disputes. Today, fortunately, all they (and more often than not, even more so their 'supporters') are arguing over is a name................
and if in spite of all their arguing, their country were to decide to reinstate a monarchy, the choice of monarch would not depend on them anyway, but on the citizens.

[Cory]

The House of Savoy is not a reigning House but anyway has a Head: HRH Prince Amedeo.

[eya]

Originally Posted by Cory

The House of Savoy is not a reigning House but anyway has a Head: HRH Prince Amedeo.

It is not clear . In another thread i read that there two claimants Vittorio Emanuele and Prince Amedeo.

[MAfan]

Yes, there are two claimants; each of them believes to be the rightful Head of the House of Savoy and each of them have his supporters.


As for the succession rules, maybe it's true that the Head of the House of Savoy cannot change them (this also was believed by King Umberto II), but this doesn't mean that they cannot be amended at all. It has already happened in the past, i.e. with Prince Amedeo, Duke of Aosta, in 1873.

[maria-olivia]

MAfan , could you remember me what the late King Umberto II kept in his Coffin?

[JR76]

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

MAfan , could you remember me what the late King Umberto II kept in his Coffin?

Wasn't he buried with the Royal seal?


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[Duc_et_Pair]

The late King Umberto wrote an angry letter to his son about his "uncceptable" bride and that with his mésalliance he was dishonouring the House of Italia. This letter has been stored but the King has not made real decisions to strip his son because of his mésalliance. At the other side, the King could do not much as he -of course- was no reigning King anymore but a private person whom happened to be head of a royal house.

So the one side (Savoia-Aosta) will say: "See, King Umberto was most discontent with his son and did not accept his choice of partner". The other side (Savoia) will say: "The King has never decreed to be against the marriage of his son with Marina Doria". The fact that the King did not name his own son as executor of his heritage might be a sign of his disapproval but it is still no clear act to remove him from the succession.

Anyway, as things are at the moment, Amedeo, Aimone and Umberto are in both lines of succession. No one disputes that. As nothing changes, the Savoia-Aostas will continue the royal line since Emanuele Filiberto has no sons. Period.

[maria-olivia]

Thanks JR76, I know it in french forgot it in english .

[JR76]

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

Thanks JR76, I know it in french forgot it in english .

You're welcome :)


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