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  #121  
Old 05-16-2020, 12:13 PM
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Jaime was the only one born prior to his parent's marriage about 8 years later... The second eldest sibling was born two years into their marriage.

I still wonder what exactly happened; did his father not get permission to marry and is that the reason they waited so long? And is this the 'rule' for the nobility in Spain that children that were born out of wedlock can get not only titles but als the 'royal highness' prefix when their parents marry at a later stage (or is this up to the head of the house as defunct Italian titles)?

I read that he was reluctant to give permmisson because she is from a noble background but not royal and when the finally married their wedding was very low key compared to the Weddings of the sisters of Pedro.
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  #122  
Old 05-16-2020, 01:39 PM
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Princess Sofía, Duchess of Calabria lives a very quiet life compared to other Spanish nobles .I remember reading that the late Infante Carlos, Duke of Calabria was against the match which is why they waiting so long to marry.I think then Prince Felipe and his sisters attending the wedding.
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  #123  
Old 05-16-2020, 01:44 PM
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=Duc_et_Pair;2314641]Or in Italy. The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies was the biggest state before the unification of Italy.

While their title is Italian the family lives in Spain. The family estates are in Spain. Beyond the geography of their title they have little to no link to Italy. He and his siblings were born in Madrid and Ciudad Real where the main estate is. Unless they go for a destination wedding which seems unlikely I don’t see Italy being in the consideration.
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  #124  
Old 05-16-2020, 02:43 PM
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Jaime was the only one born prior to his parent's marriage about 8 years later... The second eldest sibling was born two years into their marriage.

I still wonder what exactly happened; did his father not get permission to marry and is that the reason they waited so long? And is this the 'rule' for the nobility in Spain that children that were born out of wedlock can get not only titles but als the 'royal highness' prefix when their parents marry at a later stage (or is this up to the head of the house as defunct Italian titles)?
Canon Law, I am told, recognizes children as legitimate if the parents marry after the birth (and if there were no obstacles to the marriage.) Thus, Jaime is legitimate and the heir. Scottish law allows legtimated children inherit peerages (Scottish peerages)
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  #125  
Old 05-16-2020, 02:44 PM
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Where can I find more news about this?
One Spanish newspaper had a story yesterday as well - providing the same basic information as our sources were the same. I added information to what I received my my source.
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  #126  
Old 05-16-2020, 02:46 PM
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Princess Sofía, Duchess of Calabria lives a very quiet life compared to other Spanish nobles .I remember reading that the late Infante Carlos, Duke of Calabria was against the match which is why they waiting so long to marry.I think then Prince Felipe and his sisters attending the wedding.
I assume Sofía is not of a noble background, so that will most likely explain why Carlos was not giving permission to marry.

Edit: This article in Hola published at the time of their wedding indicates that family opposition was indeed the reason that it took that long for them to marry; Carlos expected his eldest son to marry a princess (or comparable). Nonetheless, in 2012 he even granted his illegitimate grandson the title 'Duke of Capua'; who is now the future Duke of Calabria. How things can change... Interestingly, Carlos himself also experienced opposition but not from his parents but from his later in-laws (who didn't recognize his Sicilian-claims (as that would be inconsistent with their own claims for France)).

According to her Wikipedia page she is a great-granddaughter of the Duke of San Fernando de Quiroga; so at least her great-grandfather was part of the Spanish nobility (and even a grandee).
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  #127  
Old 05-16-2020, 02:55 PM
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While their title is Italian the family lives in Spain. The family estates are in Spain. Beyond the geography of their title they have little to no link to Italy. He and his siblings were born in Madrid and Ciudad Real where the main estate is. Unless they go for a destination wedding which seems unlikely I don’t see Italy being in the consideration.
I agree they are more Spanish than Italian. But like the Borbone di Parma family, also the Borbone delle Due Sicilie family have their only official functions in Italy. Every year we see several official and private visits to their former territories. This year is low in visits because of COVID-19.

March 15 Torino - annuled
March 11 Napoli - annuled
March 10 Santa Chiara - annuled
March 9 Brescia - annuled
February 14th Nola - continued but without the Duke
Etc.

Anyway, we will see. As long as COVID is there, the wedding will be low key, we may assume.
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  #128  
Old 05-16-2020, 03:34 PM
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I agree they are more Spanish than Italian. But like the Borbone di Parma family, also the Borbone delle Due Sicilie family have their only official functions in Italy. Every year we see several official and private visits to their former territories. This year is low in visits because of COVID-19.

March 15 Torino - annuled
March 11 Napoli - annuled
March 10 Santa Chiara - annuled
March 9 Brescia - annuled
February 14th Nola - continued but without the Duke
Etc.

Anyway, we will see. As long as COVID is there, the wedding will be low key, we may assume.
The difference between the Duke of Parma and the Duke of Calabria; is that the former Duke of Calabria was also recognized as an Infante of Spain. Although, they don't have many events, the family is still invited to some state occasions including the abdication of Juan Carlos (and probably when Leonor was admitted to the Order of the Golden Fleece).
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  #129  
Old 05-16-2020, 04:15 PM
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I assume Sofía is not of a noble background, so that will most likely explain why Carlos was not giving permission to marry.
From what I read Infante Carlos wanted Pedro to marry a royal and not the great granddaughter of the duke of San Fernando de Quiroga.
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  #130  
Old 05-16-2020, 06:14 PM
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Pedro has succeeded his father as President of the Royal Council of Spanish Military Orders, and for that position he attends various official events.

Presidentes del Real Consejo de las Ordenes Militares
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  #131  
Old 05-17-2020, 05:37 PM
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I assume Sofía is not of a noble background, so that will most likely explain why Carlos was not giving permission to marry.

Edit: This article in Hola published at the time of their wedding indicates that family opposition was indeed the reason that it took that long for them to marry; Carlos expected his eldest son to marry a princess (or comparable). Nonetheless, in 2012 he even granted his illegitimate grandson the title 'Duke of Capua'; who is now the future Duke of Calabria. How things can change... Interestingly, Carlos himself also experienced opposition but not from his parents but from his later in-laws (who didn't recognize his Sicilian-claims (as that would be inconsistent with their own claims for France)).

According to her Wikipedia page she is a great-granddaughter of the Duke of San Fernando de Quiroga; so at least her great-grandfather was part of the Spanish nobility (and even a grandee).
Yes, Nicolas Melgarejo y Melgarejo, 5.Duke of San Fernando de Quiroga was indeed Grandee of Spain :-)

Sofia is also descendant of Kings of Castile and Leon, Kings of Aragon, Kings of Portugal etc.

But as you say, they might expected someone with a bit "stronger" bloodline, preferably a female from Gotha I and II section, so that his claim to the Headship of the Bourbon Two-Sicilies Royal House could be stronger.
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  #132  
Old 05-17-2020, 05:47 PM
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I think the only Royal Order the current Duke of Calabria holds is the Civil Order of Alfonso X, the Wise bestowed by King Felipe in December 2017.
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  #133  
Old 05-17-2020, 07:56 PM
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I imagine that is because as far as I can see Spain is the only monarchy that supports his claim, the others all support Carlos Duke of Castro
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  #134  
Old 05-17-2020, 08:37 PM
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I suspect that most other reigning monarchies would want to stay away from the whole discussion. A social invitation for the Duke and Duchess of Castro does not necessarily mean that a royal house supports their claim.
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  #135  
Old 05-18-2020, 12:46 PM
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I imagine that is because as far as I can see Spain is the only monarchy that supports his claim, the others all support Carlos Duke of Castro
I have not heard any monarchy making any declaration on this. They stay away from it, as their Governments (which are politically responsible for the monarch) have no position. (If King Willem-Alexander openly supports the Duke of Calabria, then we may assume he expresses the opinion of the Dutch Government.)

The general line is: renunciations are for ever. Don Juan Carlos supported the late Duke of Calabria, his full cousin and youth friend. Understandable. But what is then his answer when Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón declares the renunciation of his great-grandfather Don Jaime, Duke of Segovia, null and void?

When renunciations are respected, then Jean d'Orléans, Don Carlo di Borbone delle Due Sicilie and Felipe de Borbón are the rightful heads of the Houses of France, the Two Sicilies and of Spain.
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  #136  
Old 05-18-2020, 12:49 PM
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I wonder if Prince Pedro, Duke of Calabria will ever be made an Infante like his late father?
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  #137  
Old 05-18-2020, 12:57 PM
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The general line is: renunciations are for ever. Don Juan Carlos supported the late Duke of Calabria, his full cousin and youth friend. Understandable. But what is then his answer when Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón declares the renunciation of his great-grandfather Don Jaime, Duke of Segovia, null and void?
Even if he rejected his grandfather's renunciation as null and void, I don't believe Luis Alfonso could credibly claim the headship of the House of Spain, given that his grandparents' marriage was unequal per the rules which were in application at the time.
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  #138  
Old 05-18-2020, 01:08 PM
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I have not heard any monarchy making any declaration on this. They stay away from it, as their Governments (which are politically responsible for the monarch) have no position. (If King Willem-Alexander openly supports the Duke of Calabria, then we may assume he expresses the opinion of the Dutch Government.)

The general line is: renunciations are for ever. Don Juan Carlos supported the late Duke of Calabria, his full cousin and youth friend. Understandable. But what is then his answer when Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón declares the renunciation of his great-grandfather Don Jaime, Duke of Segovia, null and void?

When renunciations are respected, then Jean d'Orléans, Don Carlo di Borbone delle Due Sicilie and Felipe de Borbón are the rightful heads of the Houses of France, the Two Sicilies and of Spain.
The interesting bit comes after Carlo; he proclaimed his eldest daughter his heir which I don't think corresponds to the rules of the house... But that's probably more for a general topic on 'the headship of the house of the Two Sicilies' than for this topic.
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  #139  
Old 05-18-2020, 01:10 PM
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The interesting bit comes after Carlo; he proclaimed his eldest daughter his heir which I don't think corresponds to the rules of the house... But that's probably more for a general topic on 'the headship of the house of the Two Sicilies' than for this topic.
He did so by changing the rules of his house (without the approval of Pedro who does not recognize him as the head).

Official Act of the Head of the House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies Abolishing Salic Law In The Succession To the Headship of the House. — Sacred Military Constantinian Order of Saint George United States Delegation
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  #140  
Old 05-18-2020, 02:19 PM
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When the one-sided adaptation by Carlo is not accepted, it risks the House split in three faction:

1.
The Duke of Calabria (Spanish branch)

2.
The Duke of Castro (Italian branch)

3.
Don Francesco di Borbone delle Due Sicilie (cousin of the Duke of Castro, son of two HRH parents, made a dynastic marriage with Alexandra von Schönborn-Wiesentheid, from a mediatized House). He and his now 17 year old son Don Antonio di Borbone delle Due Sicilie are then strong contenders for the headship. In that case I hope on a Two Sicilies marriage between the two branches.

When the now 17 years old Donna Maria Carolina marries the now 17 years old Don Antonio, it would enormously enhance the Castro claim.
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