Italian Noble and Princely Families 2: July 2007-

[Borghese]

NOBLE FAMILIES OF JEWISH ANCESTRY

According to Guy Stair Sainty :

Borghese, Princes - Originally from Germany, becoming Catholics in the late 14th or early 15th centuries. Princes of Sulmona, etc.

Aldobrandini, Princes - in the male line a branch of the Borghese family, considered of ancient Jewish origin.

Torlonia, converts at the end of the 18th century, ennobled 1794, Patricians 1809, Princes 1814, Dukes 1847. Divided into two lines of Dukes Torlonia and Princes of Civitelli Cesi The junior line became extinct in the male line and was substituted with Borghese, also of Jewish descent (q.v.), acquiring the titles of Prince Torlonia, Prince of Fucino, Canino and Musignano (these last inherited on the extinction of the male line of Bonaparte di Canino) The title of Prince of Civitelli Cesi, however, reverted to the senior line, being attached to a male majorat.

Do you know how we ended up in Siena in 1300's ? From wool merchants to bankers.

[Borghese]

A simple question. How did the Royal, Noble Borghese Family get it's name ? Where did Tiezzo's nephew get the name ?

ie:
Borghese of Siena

The house originated with Tiezzo da Monticiano, a 13th century wool merchant in Siena, whose nephew Borghese gave his name to the family.

[MAfan]

Tiezzo was a French native wool merchant; he moved to Siena, where he bought the village of Monticiano. He was father of two sons, Bencivenne and Benincasa.

Bencivenne had a son, whose first name was Borghese; he was the progenitor of Borghesi family - later Borghese - that split in two branches: one branch stayed in Siena and the other one (extinct in XVII century) moved to Florence.
In XV century, Agostino Borghesi, Nobleman of Siena was created Count by Pope Pius II; his descendant Marcantonio I moved to Rome and became the progenitor of the still existant Borghese Family.

Tiezzo's second son, Benincasa, was the progenitor of Benincasa Family, whose most preminent member was Caterina Benincasa, best known as Saint Catherine of Siena.

I guess that the surname Borghese originated from Tiezzo's great-grandchildren, the children of Borghese; at the time, children were known as X [name of the son] di Y [name of the father], that means "X (son) of Y" (i.e. St. Catherine was known as Caterina di Jacopo Benincasa). So it is possible that Borghese's children were known as "X di Borghese" and that during the years and generations all Borghese's descendants remained known under Borghesi (di Borghese, or simply Borghese) surname.

[Borghese]

Thanks MAfan,

I appreciate your very informative and enlightened response.

That is what I have read - that the Noble Borghese's originated in France. Do you know where in France ? Are they actually French Royalty then ??

I know that there are many Bourgeoys that came to Quebec - the most famous being
Saint Marguerite. Marguerite Bourgeoys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and Léon Victor Auguste Bourgeois who was the Prime Minister of France.

[MAfan]

I don't know where did they originate in France exactly.

Borghese family definitely isn't a French royal house; first of all, because the titles hold by the members of the family are all Italian titles and not French; and secondly, because Borghese family isn't a royal family: it is indeed one of the most prominent Italian aristocratic families, but not a royal one.

I also don't think that French Bourgeoys family (or families) are related with Borghese family, because the latter started using its surname only in XIII century, after Tiezzo da Monticiano (the French progenitor) came to Italy, and as far as I know none of his descendants moved back to France setting there a branch of Borghese Family.

[Count]

We should not forget that there was a period in the Italian history were it was "chic" to have French ancestors...during that period many families of the high Italian aristocracy tried to find out connection with French people/families.

The official books of the Italian nobiliry do not write anything about this French origin.

I understand there is a member of this family taking part in this discussion, mybe he/she could enlight us...

[Borghese]

The other "Borghese" (who called himself BorgheseUSA) that was on here was telling me that I was definitely NOT Nobility - has mysteriously disappeared. All he posted over and over again was that I was not Nobility - I agree. I am a commoner, " i work the land" - a borghese (small b) But my great grandfather was Orazio Borghese and I have had several discussions with Prince Lorenzo Borghese (yeah - the Bachelor) who was trying to help me learn more about my family from Southern Italy. He has confirmed that the Orazio (his great Uncle) was not the same as my Orazio. His lost a castle gambling. All I know is that my dad looks exactly like the bust of Cardinal Scipione. Maybe just a coincidence. I have some theories of where the Borghese's came from before Siena. (Palestine and then India) Capedocian Nazarines. I am working on a book to be published shortly.

[Count]

It will be interesting to know more about these roots from Capedocian Nazarines. Talking about this matter I am always very cautious: genealogy is a science and it always needs proofs before asserting ancestors, it is very difficult to have certainties of what happened in a so far period of the history, if you do not have evidence which date, let's say, around the year 1000 when documents were still there...
Lorenzo, I do not know him personally, he grown up in the US, I think he lives in NYC...?

[Borghese]

Count - in my research I have come across the "Varghese" family from India. They are mostly located in an area called Karela, India.

Syrian Malabar Nasrani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These East-Indians (Syrian-Malabar Nasrani) are Nazarenes. They were the very 1st jewish christians - who travelled with St Tomas to this area round 52 AD. The family says that "Varghese" comes from the word "George" which means Farmer or one who works the land. I have also heard that "Borghese" originally comes from this definition. ST George was a Capedocian.

In aramaic (the language spoken by these 1st Nazarines) The letter Bet (b) is also pronounced vet (V)... So Varghese could have origially been Barghese. This could mean Son(bar) of Ghese, or Son of Yheshay (Jesse)...

Another possibilty is "Bar-rgesy" which translates into aramaic as Son of Thunder. This is how Jesus referred to the Sons of Zebedee as Sons of Thunder - Boanerges. (Mark 3:17) The plural "sons" is B'nei... the singular is Bar.

Etymoligists have always been confused by this bizarre nick name for John and James and it has always been interpretted as "Sons of Thunder" but the Syriac Pe****ta has it as B'nei-rgesy... which could have been a family name. Perhaps Zebedee's name was Zebedee Bar-ghesy. Aramaic of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am continuing my research that was originally sparked by Guy Stair Sainty: NOBLE FAMILIES OF JEWISH ANCESTRY

[Count]

Guy is one of the best students of history and genealogy and I believe him, he can always proof what he writes.

Also the Bulgari family (family of juwellers in Rome!) comes from Greece and somebody says that they might have origin from Russia: Bulgari=Vulgari=Volga river...mah, maybe...

As I wrote before, I am always very suspicious...

[Borghese]

I'm confused.... You say you trust Guy Stair Sainty's research but on the other hand you remain Suspicious ...

Do you believe he is correct in his research regarding the "Borghese" family having ancient Jewish anscestors ?

I guess you could say we are all related to Adam and Eve right ?

[CarolMR]

It is so difficult to find any information on Princess Scilla. I think she is really lovely looking and would like to know what she is doing these days. I know years ago it was rumored that she and Prince William were dating, but I think that was just publicity. Anyone know anything about her? Is she still an art student? Is she married?

[MAfan]

I don't know much on her (actually almost anything); btw, she's 26, so it's likely that she has ended her studied or she's at the end of them, and she's still unmarried.

[CarolMR]

"I don't know much on her (actually almost anything); btw, she's 26, so it's likely that she has ended her studied or she's at the end of them, and she's still unmarried." - MAfan

Thanks, MAfan. I thought it was interesting, in 2003 I think, when Scilla was reportedly dating Prince William, but that turns out not to have been true. In any case, I wonder why she isn't spoken of or photographed more often (or at all). I hear she is very adept at dodging the press.

[Count]

Originally Posted by Borghese

I'm confused.... You say you trust Guy Stair Sainty's research but on the other hand you remain Suspicious ...

Do you believe he is correct in his research regarding the "Borghese" family having ancient Jewish anscestors ?

I guess you could say we are all related to Adam and Eve right ?

Genealogy is a science and a science needs proofs, I believe only to things, which can have a confirmation. As I know Guy Sainty I am sure he can proof what he writes.

[Count]

Originally Posted by CarolMR

"I don't know much on her (actually almost anything); btw, she's 26, so it's likely that she has ended her studied or she's at the end of them, and she's still unmarried." - MAfan

Thanks, MAfan. I thought it was interesting, in 2003 I think, when Scilla was reportedly dating Prince William, but that turns out not to have been true. In any case, I wonder why she isn't spoken of or photographed more often (or at all). I hear she is very adept at dodging the press.

Scilla is the daughter of Don Augusto Ruffo di Calabria, Prince of Scilla (!!!) and his wife Princess Irma von Windisch-Graetz. She lives in Milan with her twin brother Francesco and her sister Fabrizia.

[Borghese]

Originally Posted by Count

Genealogy is a science and a science needs proofs, I believe only to things, which can have a confirmation. As I know Guy Sainty I am sure he can proof what he writes.

As you know Guy Sainty, could you contact him and ask him for proof regarding his statement on his website regarding ancient jewish Nobility ? NOBLE FAMILIES OF JEWISH ANCESTRY I cannot locate any proof of his statement.

[Count]

Originally Posted by Borghese

As you know Guy Sainty, could you contact him and ask him for proof regarding his statement on his website regarding ancient jewish Nobility ? NOBLE FAMILIES OF JEWISH ANCESTRY I cannot locate any proof of his statement.

Sorry Borghese but I can not do it because of the privacy concerning my identity.

I will send you a mail with his post address, you can contact him, he is polite and will answer you.

[Borghese]

Re: ... I will send you a mail with his post address, you can contact him, he is polite and will answer you.

Thanks Count - I really appreciate that.

[Borghese]

I contacted Guy Stair Sainty and he is going to scan a copy of the Semi-Gotha.. I'll see if I can post it here also. Very interesting research. I have found another connection back to Calabria, the Kabbalists and Galilee.