Italian Noble and Princely Families 2: July 2007-

[Count]

Originally Posted by Odette

In a recent edition of the US Vanity Fair they had a great article about the Carraciolo/Agnelli/Visconti/Elkann connections, family feuds and scandals.
I assume they all belong to the nobility of Northern Italy but if any of our Italian friends have any news on the Jacaranda Carraciolo latest feud, I'd love to know what happenned.

Caracciolo is a princely family of Naples, this family has several branches, the one connected to Agnellis is of the Princes of Castagneto.

Visconti used to be a reigning family, the ruled the duchy of Milan.

Agnellis have their origin in Piedmont but this family is not noble, they have never received a title.

Elkann is a French family with no title of nobility.

[MAfan]

Duke Don Guido Orazio Borea d'Olmo died on 30 December 2009 in Sanremo, aged 84. He married in 1958 in Bruxelles HSH Princess and Duchess Marie Elisabeth d'Arenberg (1929-1996), with whom he had 2 daughters.
the Duke was one of the most illustrious citizen of the small town of Sanremo, where he worked in order to increase the tourism; he bravely fought during the World War II against the nazifascists, and worked in 1945-1946 as officer in the household of HRH Prince Umberto, later King Umberto II. He remained always devoted to his King and the monarchy, refusing several decorations from the Italian republic. In 1978 he was created Duke from His Majesty King Umberto II.

[MAfan]

Please help me...
Some time ago I found in the italian Wikipedia a page on Archduke Heinrich Ferdinand of Austria-Tuscany (1878-1969), son of Grand Duke Ferdinand IV.
This page reports that in 1902 he married Luise of Hesse-Philippstal-Barchfeld, with whom had a son, Ferdinand; Heinrich Ferdinand and Louise divorced in 1912, and in 1919 he married secondly to Maria Karoline Ludescher.

Wikipedia also reports some informations about his son, Ferdinand (1903-1977), who married Maria Henriette Rechteren-Almelo and had a daughter, Alice (1929-1982), married to the italian noblemanGuido Poeti-Marentini e Valperga di Masino-Caluso Peyretti di Condove (about whom is a page in the english Wikipedia).

It seems all a reliable story, but looking for some more informations I saw that something doesn't fit in...

I've checked several genealogies of Habsburg-Tuscany Family, and all them reported only the marriage of Henrich Ferdinand to Maria Karoline Ludescher, and only the children he had with Maria Karoline; even the english Wikipedia page on HF reports only this marriage.
I also didn't find anything on Luise of Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld.

On the other side is the page on Guido Poeti-Marentini e Valperga di Masino-Caluso Peyretti di Condove, and a page on his family, provided with several reliable references.

So I wonder: what's the truth? Is it the umpteenth fake of Wikipedia, or there is something true in all this story? If so, I wonder why no genealogies report the first wedding of the Archduke.

[Warren]

Burke's Royal Families of the World Vol 1 has Princess Luise of the Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld line (1868-1959) married in 1889 to Prince Rudolf of Lippe (1856-1931).
Due to her father's marriage to Princess Marie of Hanau, Princess Luise bore the title of Princess of Ardeck rather than of H-P-B.
Burke's shows no other Luise of H-P-B.

[amedea]

I came across that articles too some times ago and I am pretty sure they are fake. The Habsburg connection is easy to be excluded. But also 90 % of what they said on the piedmontes family is not false. There is the very prominent Valperga di Masino family, with some of those residences, but with a different genealogy and no other surnames. Also the Peyretti di Condove is/was a real noble family, but never added other surnames.

[MAfan]

I had the same impression of your, Amedea; the articles seem to be very reliable, but I was sure that the connection with Archduke Heinrich Ferdinand (and with the Hesse-Philippsthal-Barchfeld) is a fake.

[Tosca]

Fergie's former lover's nephew shot dead in hunting accident

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1249396/Fergies-lovers-nephew-shot-dead-gruesome-hunting-accident.html#ixzz0exUM8NwN

[Nobilitalia]

Originally Posted by amedea

The Habsburg connection is easy to be excluded. But also 90 % of what they said on the piedmontes family is not false. There is the very prominent Valperga di Masino family, with some of those residences, but with a different genealogy and no other surnames. Also the Peyretti di Condove is/was a real noble family, but never added other surnames.

In fact, the Habsburg connection is not fake, BUT wrong, through the Archduke Heinrich Ferdinand of Austria-Tuscany (1878-1969) connection. I've been working on Northern Italian genealogies for a long time, and have a few things to say about these names. All families, Valperga di Masino e Caluso, Poeti-Marentini and Peyretti di Condove existed/or exist. The direct line of Valperga di Masino became extinct, as the article in Wikipedia says, in 2002, when Count Luigi Valperga di Masino died without children. This old trunk is one of Italy's oldest, even more noble and ancient than the Savoia themselves. It is strange there's very little information online about it, and what there is, is mostly incomplete or wrong.

The Peyretti di Condove became extinct in the mid 19th century, as a noble family, and was mainly absorbed by the Poeti-Marentini. That is true. The Peyretti held the title of Counts acquired by Regie Lettere Patenti by the King in 1769, but it was in 1875 when the title was passed to the Poeti-Marentini by right, after Ettore Peyretti di Condove, 3rd Count, died in Paris. Ettore didn't have children, nor did he marry. He was the third son of Ludovico Peyretti, who was the Baron of the First French Empire and was married with Polissena Gastaldi, from the 4th Count di Triana e Signore di Cocconato and Countess Maria Claretti-Ponzone, daughter of Count of Gassino, Thiéry e Toetto. It is true that the Poeti-Marentini inherited the titles.

The Poeti-Marentini is also a very ancient family, recorded in very special and difficult to find sources on Piedmontese nobility (for genealogical research). Poeti was originally a very noble family from Bologna, and there are still many important traces of them in that city (and region Emilia-Romagna). Marentini were also a noble family from Piedmont and Aosta, Counts and Viscounts of Marentino. Both families were absorbed into one, in the late 1700s, when the heir of one family and the heiress of the other married; in fact, there are accounts that the Marentini were in financial difficulties and it was the youngest daughter of the Count who through her marriage save them from bankruptcy There were in fact two branches of the Marentini (as in many families from the times of the Kingdom of Piedmont and Sicily and back), one rich with titles and one poor or 'modest'. The branch that married the Poeti-Marentini was the wealthy one. That is true. The alliance through marriage of the Poeti-Marentini's with the Valperga's goes back to the existence of the Valperga's from Borgomasino. In fact, by blood, the last Count Valperga was from the Borgomasino line, that inherited the Masino, Caluso e Massé estates and, as it is said, changed its name to "Valperga" in the 19th century unifying both branches. The story in the article about the dispute of both branches, more words or less, is 100% true.

Poeti-Marentini e Valperga di Masino is a lateral branch of the Valperga main line, the only one by right in record, as far as I know. Valperga di Masino, as a main branch, is extinct. The connection between both families goes to the Valperga di Borgomasino (completely true), whom in the end, inherited the fortune and titles of their first cousins Valperga di Masino, when their line became extinct in the 1840s-1850s.The Poeti-Marentini living today must have that long name in their birth certificates, but I'm sure they dropped the "Peyretti di Condove", as I have never found in the 20th century references that prove the contrary. It is true and possible that they are the only claimants to the Valperga di Masino titles, but that is no longer of use and importance in Italy, as titles have no value except in blue blood circles. And it is true that the titles of Count, Duke, Marchese (I cite: "Duke of Salce, Marquess of Masino, Marquess of Brosso, Count of Condove, Count of San Martino Canavese, Count and Viscount of Marentino") are in their possession. But the "hereditary Count of Masino e Caluso" and the title of "Baron of the First French Empire" are mere claims, due to their so-called 'rights', I believe. Anyway, they can't get that nowadays.

It is true that the Poeti-Marentini lived in Castello di Borgomasino, or at least owned it. That is all true. But there's no such German connection with the Hesse-Philippstal or Rechteren-Almelo, etc. That is not in the genealogies here in Italy that I know. The article(s) cited as source for these threads seems correct in many aspects, though I haven't found references there to the Hesse or Rechteren's, which may mean that it has been edited or corrected. That was absolutely wrong.

One thing for sure is that there are no more Valpergas or Peyretti from those main lines, but there are a very few Poeti-Marentini in Piedmont, and they are all related... And about the dark Habsburg connection, there was indeed a society lady named Alice Habsburg in Turin married to one Poeti-Marentini in the 20th century, but for me her story is totally unknown There are half a dozen people I know working thoroughfully on Piedmontese genealogies at the moment, and perhaps they can say more about everything, as give further details, etc. This usually happens with Italian noble families as there are so many in Northern Italy that one can't tell with precision who's who...

[MAfan]

Thank you for all your precious informations, Nobilitalia!
You confirmed what I did suspect, about the reliable sources and the existance of all the families mendioned. Now I have just one more question: do you know if Guido Poeti-Marentini e Valperga di Masino-Caluso Peyretti di Condove really existed?

[Nobilitalia]

You're most welcomed, MAfan. I have gathered more information, if it is of use, of what I know. About Guido Poeti-Marentini e Valperga di Masino-Caluso Peyretti di Condove, I have some references as to "Guido Poeti-Marentini e Valperga", and I don't know if they are the same person (it seems they are), but we can try to confirm his existence (with dates and parents) with a friend of mine who works in Turin for the Stato Civile records: she can look it up for me, even in the historical archives. I hope tomorrow we can have some news.

[MAfan]

Maybe is a bit too much to ask...but if your friend can confirm his existance, can he also give us some informations about his wife? (that I'm pretty sure she was not a Habsburg...)

[amedea]

The castle of Borgomasino being now a bed&breakfast has a website with its history. Castello di Borgomasino It says that the castle was earned by the main line of the Valperga until 1989 when it was sold. No Poeti-Marentini there!! I just continue thinking that Valpega and that family connection is a fake.
However its interesting that you mentioned an Alice Habsburg in Turin, because archduchess Alice von Habsburg-Tuscany actually married in a Piedmontese family, the one of barons Manno (of sardinian origin). Of course also barons Manno haven't links with such Poeti-Marentini.

[Nobilitalia]

I have very good news on all of this, and things are more exciting than before. After my friend made a super fast search on the government computers without complaining much (which I appreciate and feel so in debt), I am reported that Guido Poeti-Marentini e Valperga did actually exist. The civil records say he was born in 1928 and died in 2002, as it is claimed. Quoting from the short email, I am told that he appears on the old A.I.R.E. records (it seems he lived abroad sometime) with 3 different names which are: Guido Poeti-Marentini e Valperga di Masino, Guido Poeti-Marentini, and Guido Poeti-Marentini e Valperga.

He is reported as son of Carlo Poeti-Marentini e Valperga and Assunta Thaon di San André, which is what I read online. This is correct.

But when it comes to his wife, it gets much better…

In the notes (annotazioni) of his summarized Estratto per Riassunto dell’Atto di Nascita, Duke Guido appears as married to ‘Alice von Wallburg-Habsburg’ (!!!)

This is in his about ‘matrimonio civile/cattolico’ status’ notes. His wife is also in the A.I.R.E records as ‘Alice von Habsburg’, ‘Alice von Wallburg’ and ‘Alice Asburgo’. But that's all.

Which means she was a Habsburg, and/or at least by name. But searching online, I was dishearted to find out that she belongs to a very problematic line of the Austrian family (I heard about it once a long time ago, but forgot about it, as it seemed too confusing). I have quickly researched about the ‘von Wallburg-Habsburgs’ and this is what I can say:

The evidence took me to the Austria line (senior) of the Habsburgs. The connection comes apparently from Peter Leopold II, Holy Roman Emperor and his wife Infanta Maria Luisa of Spain. They had 16 children. His tenth child was Rainer Joseph Johann Michael Franz Hieronymus, Viceroy of Lombardia (1783-1820), married to Italian Princess Elisabeth of Savoia-Carignano (1800-1856). They had 8 children, being the second the Archduke Ernst Karl Felix Habsburg, born in Milan in 1824, d. in 1899. On genealogy websites, it says that he “married morganatically” in Laibach (date given is 26.4.1858) to Hungarian noble woman Laura Skublics de Velike et Bessenyö (actually it is reported too that she was born in ‘Schloss Bessenyö’ and died in ‘Vienna’). To this point it everything looks okay, except for the mystery of this marriage and the historic consequences of it. This page: http://genealogy.euweb.cz/habsburg/habsburg5.html for instance says: “their children bore the surname von Wallburg; according to some sources this marriage never occurred and the children were illegitimate”. But the truth seems confusing and more complex than that.

As far as I have been able to gather quickly, the marriage of Archduke Ernst Habsburg and noble Lady Laura Skublics was secret but legitimate (not the contrary, as it was tried to make believe). It seems, according to some sources, that Ernst tried to get permission to marry her from the Austrian Emperor Franz Joseph Karl, his cousin, who disapproved the marriage and opposed it with all his might and will. But Ernst then ignored the Emperor and married Lady Laura Skublics de Velike et Bessenyö secretly. They had 4 children.
When the Emperor found out about the marriage, he prohibited Archduke Ernst to use the surname “Habsburg” by Decree (but didn’t strip him of his titles or his name in the line of succession, which is suspicious), so the newborns were given the fiction name ‘von Wallburg’. Ernst’s son, Erno, as it is said in genealogy pages and stories on Habsburgs, ‘had to change ‘von Wallburg-Habsburg’ to Skublics in 1909 after he lost (for obvious reasons on fighting an Emperor’s Decree at the time) a civil trial in which he demanded his name back. There’s no record of what happened to Archduke Ernst’s descendants, or where they are buried, or how many are his grandsons/granddaughters. Clothilde’s descendants are known and you can find a great deal about them online. I found this written by author Dan Willis who has been researching fruitlessly about the Habsburgs von Wallburg for years (complete here: Archduke Ernst's secret marriage)

Clothilde von Wallburg-Habsburg, for instance, who must be her aunt, settled in Italy, and her daughters married Italian noblemen (her children were: Walfried who died in 1914; Edith married italian Count Alessandro Caravadossi d'Aspromonte and they have one son, Roberto, and three daughters, Vittoria, Adriana and Lydia (known also as ‘Lea’) who married in 1911 Italian Count Benedetto Amari and they have five children: Michele (1912-2005), Sedulio (1914- 1998), Domenico Emerico (1915), Franca (1917-1996), Maria Clotilde (1920). This stresses more the Italian connection and the possibility that Alice Habsburg was born in Italy.

It seems Emperor Franz Joseph forbid the name “Habsburg” to the von Wallburgs by Imperial Decree because Archduke Ernst had chosen to marry morganatic. Anyway, this general theory doesn’t fit very well to me. Why? Because looking at the genealogy, for instance, Ernst’s brother Heinrich married twice morganatic and never lost his status as Archduke or was reprimanded like this. I think that it could only be hypothetically explained, in these terms: Ernst had an arranged marriage to face, which was overseen directly by the Emperor of Austria himself, wich the young Archduke Ernst refused and married his way. This was something personal that had to do with Emperor Franz Joseph and offended him greatly in his High person and Imperial power, a so-called ‘injudicious action’ on behalf of the young Archduke that he couldn’t forgive. Nothing else can explain the rage of the Emperor that lead to strip Ernst’s legitimate children (he was married by the church, so his children were legitimate before God’s eyes) from their right even to be called ‘von Habsburg’. The Court in Vienna manipulated the procedure in the Hungarian civil field for his own interest (they couldn’t do anything about the church wedding as they had no power and influence there to null a valid Catholic wedding). Even Archduke Heinrich (Ernst’s brother) was best man. It seems to me that it was a very capricious and personal decision, as there’s no solid basis on calling Archduke Ernst’s children “illegitimate”. Call it very arbitrary… This seems to be what destroyed Archduke Ernst’s existence, as he is reported as a sad, unhappy man for the rest of his life, that had nothing to do with his wife or children, and he never married again.

So my conclusion is: Archduke Ernst’s wedding was indeed morganatic, but legitimate (the Church records in Slovenia still have him under his royal name). And his children were legitimate too in baptism. Which only means that Alice von Wallburg-Habsburg is actually Alice Habsburg.

Anyway, “von Wallburg” is a fiction as their real and lawful surname is “Habsburg” (and if they went to trial today to get back their surname, I’m sure they’ll win). But what strikes me about this Alice is that her surname in the State Archives here in Italy is “von Wallburg-Habsburg”, which means that she must had been born outside the Austro-Hungarian realm, where no Emperor’s Decree applied, or she used the parish records as ID, etc. It would be amazing to find out.

Well, that’s all I got. Taking from her information and what there is online, I can say she is one of the lost great-granddaughters of Archduke Ernst of Austria (from the senior line to which belonged Ferdinando of Modena, the wife of King Vittorio Emmanuele I, Ferdinand IV of Tuscany and, of course, Maria Antonie of Austria, married to Louis XVI of France). Alice was by blood a Habsburg. In connecting she with Prince Heinrich Salvator (from the Tuscan line) was wrong, fake, misleading... But as far as I can read on this evidence, Alice Habsburg is no fake – she is/was real and is connected to a full Austrian Habsburg Archduke. And I have no doubt (as I know how it was here) that her social position is what allowed her to marry an Italian nobleman.

Finally, further information (as complete birth, marriage, death certificates) can only be seen and/or retrieved by her legitimate relatives, as Italian law forbids showing/giving these records to third parties (they are tagged as “private” or “classified”), even if you’re researching! It is obvious that a great deal could be extracted from these. The more you can get from government computers are a few generalities like the ones I got above, but nothing else. For something detailed, you’ll need the printed certificates. It is clear that the more time and effort one spends on this would be absolutely worthless, but luck can change if one of her descendants is found and willing to help, for instance. I hope this is of great insight to you, MAFan! Good luck!

[Nobilitalia]

Originally Posted by amedea

The castle of Borgomasino being now a bed&breakfast has a website with its history. Castello di Borgomasino It says that the castle was earned by the main line of the Valperga until 1989 when it was sold. No Poeti-Marentini there!! I just continue thinking that Valpega and that family connection is a fake.
However its interesting that you mentioned an Alice Habsburg in Turin, because archduchess Alice von Habsburg-Tuscany actually married in a Piedmontese family, the one of barons Manno (of sardinian origin). Of course also barons Manno haven't links with such Poeti-Marentini.

Thanks for the info, dear Amedea Anyway, I do think there is that connection, as I have found the Poeti-Marentini's in 2 genealogies: Valperga di Masino e Caluso and Peyretti di Condove. I can upload those genealogies online, but will have to be in a webpage, so it is not used in the wrong way. The Poeti-Marentini built lateral lines of these two families, which have survived the main lines. Both genealogies that allow a reconstruction of the Piedmontese Poeti-Marentini I got from the Istituto Araldico Genealogico Italiano (very difficult to find as they don't give them away) and some other sources.
Just to give you an example, taking for example the Peyretti genealogy, the Poeti-Marentini become prominent (from there on) according to this:

C.12 [ex 2°] Rosa (al Battesimo Rosa Margherita) Peyretti di Condove (*Saluzzo 17-I-1727 +....) = Saluzzo 18-X-1744 Giovanni Antonio Marentini, Conte di Marentino (Savigliano 12-VI-1718 + Saluzzo 15-XII-1790). Figli:
D1. Sebastiano MARENTINI, Dottore in Leggi, Sostituto Avvocato Fiscale del Magistrato del Consolato di Torino dal 29-XI-1774, Avvocato Fiscale del Magistrato del Consolato di Torino dal 10-XII-1779, Giudice Legale del Magistrato del Consolato di Torino dal 7-XII-1784. Congiudice nel Consiglio di Giustizia di Alessandria dal 23.IX-1791, ebbe il titolo e l'anzianità di Senatore il 25-X-1791. Senatore di Piemonte dal 16-XI-1794, Reggente la Segreteria Estera del Governo Provvisorio del Piemonte nel 1800, Membro della Corte d'Appello di Torino dal 9-X-1801 al 1814, fervente giacobino (ed in seguito bonapartista),con la Restaurazione si ritiro a vita privata esercitando a professione forense (*Saluzzo 27-V-1747, + Torino 28-XI-1843).
D2. Pietro (al Battesimo Pietro Bernardino) MARENTINI, creato Barone dell'Impero Francese (trasmissibile ai nipoti) con Lettere Patenti Imperiali del 14-VIII-1813. Sacerdote, Canonico della Catedrale di Torino dal 1801 al 1813, eletto Vescovo di Piacenza il ?-IV-1813 (nominato da Napoleone I, mai riconosciuto dalla Santa Sede ed espulso dagli Austrici il ?-III-1814), Elemosiniere dell'Imperatore dei Francesi dal 1813, reintegrato come Canonico nel Capitolo della Cattedrale di Torino nel 1815, Membro della Giunta Provvisoria di Governo del Regno di Sardegna dal 14-III-1821 all'8-IV-1821, fervente bonapartista prima e liberale poi, fu abile e spregiudicato politico, cercò una mediazione con l'Austria e con il Re Carlo Felice attraverso l'Ambasciatore Russo a Torino Conte Mocenigo il 3-IV-1821. (*Saluzzo I-I-1764, +184?)
D3. Rosa Lucia MARENTINI, la sua discendenza assunse il cognome POETI-MARENTINI e VALPERGA (*Saluzzo 6-II-1765+...) = Saluzzo 25-VII-1786 Luigi Alessandro Poeti-Valperga di Masino di Borgomasino....

And from there on for the Poeti-Marentini there is a long genealogy.

I could also copy here what I have on the Valperga family trees I have.

The Alice Habsburg (von Wallburg) had nothing to do with the famiglia Manno... least the Poeti-Marentini. Alice von Wallburg-Habsburg was actually active in Torino as she was a prominent member in the Austrian circles there, especially with Vittoria Leumann, who was the mother of the last Count Valperga from the main line (and their husbands were related). I too have found evidence of this, and that's from where I was reminded of her name

[MAfan]

This is very interesting, Nobilitalia; thanks for having provided and shared all these informations!

Btw, I can explain something about Archduke Ernst's marriage: as fas as I can understand, his marriage was a typical morganatic one, like all the morganatic marriages in his family.
The marriage was legal; being morganatic, it means that:
1- Ernst didn't lose any title or rank; nothing changed for him (apart from being married);
2- His wife, Laura, didn't become an Archduchess, nor a member of the Imperial Family;
3- Their children, and all their descendants, were not in the line of succession, were not Archdukes of Austria and were not members of the Imperial Family.
This implies that their legal surname is von Wallburg, and they can't claim to be Habsburgs; their situations is identical to the situations of the descendants of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, the Dukes of Hohenberg, who are not members of Habsburg Family (and they're trying to get back their estates confiscated after the fall of the Monarchy due to the Habsburg Law, justifying their claims because they're members of Hohenberg Family, not of Habsburg Family).
The situation of the von Wallburgs is identical also to the situation of Countess Maria Raineria von Waideck, the daughter of Ernst's brother Heinrich; the only difference is that Emperor Franz Josef gave an higher title to the descendants of Heinrich (and of Franz Ferdinand), while he didn't do with the descendants of Ernst.

On the other side, once fallen the Monarchy, surely it could have been easy for a Wallburg to change his surname to Habsburg or Habsburg-Wallburg; a lot of people did, and for example in Germany are a lot of people whose surname is Prinz von XXX, but they are not (for example, Frederic Prinz von Anhalt: he is not a Prince, nor a member of the Ducal House of Anhalt; just he was adopted by a Princess of Anhalt, and took her surname...I'm sure that when Germany was an Empire it would not have happened.)

[Nobilitalia]

I totally agree, MAfan! Thanks so much for that! Now, don't you think it would be pretty exciting to find out why Emperor Franz didn't give a higher title to Archduke Ernst's children? The cases of course have similarities, but this one seems very special... What was the reason? Could it be because of the Slovenian/Hungarian noble Skublics de Velike et Bessenyö family? Ernst Erzherzog von Österreich died in Arco, Italy. Burke's Royal Families of the World, Volume 1 says the family lived at Schloss Bessenyö. But why? I'm just curious, will continue to investigate

[amedea]

Thanks for this info, it allowed me to check Manno's "Patriziato Subalpino". It is reported there that Giovanni Antonio Martentini was actually a tailor!! No titles for him and his ancestors!! It is true that his son was created a baron of the French empire in 1813 and that his daughter married a Poeti. But it is not true that the Poeti were an ancient or noble or rich family: actually Luigi Poeti was a grocer!! Of course no mentions of any connection to the Valperga family!!

Then it is very strange that we know many commoner descendant of that archduke Ernst and not these noble ones: so strange that I don't believe in their existance.

[Nobilitalia]

Originally Posted by amedea

Thanks for this info, it allowed me to check Manno's "Patriziato Subalpino". It is reported there that Giovanni Antonio Martentini was actually a tailor!! No titles for him and his ancestors!! It is true that his son was created a baron of the French empire in 1813 and that his daughter married a Poeti. But it is not true that the Poeti were an ancient or noble or rich family: actually Luigi Poeti was a grocer!! Of course no mentions of any connection to the Valperga family!!

Then it is very strange that we know many commoner descendant of that archduke Ernst and not these noble ones: so strange that I don't believe in their existance.

Originally Posted by amedea

Thanks for this info, it allowed me to check Manno's "Patriziato Subalpino". It is reported there that Giovanni Antonio Martentini was actually a tailor!! No titles for him and his ancestors!! It is true that his son was created a baron of the French empire in 1813 and that his daughter married a Poeti. But it is not true that the Poeti were an ancient or noble or rich family: actually Luigi Poeti was a grocer!! Of course no mentions of any connection to the Valperga family!!

Then it is very strange that we know many commoner descendant of that archduke Ernst and not these noble ones: so strange that I don't believe in their existance.

Very surprising. Manno can be checked online on http://www.vivant.it/pagine/patri.htm
and most of the information on it, when it was misleading, was corrected. This webpage is maintained by Ministero per i Beni e le Attività Culturali (Ministry for the Cultural Property and Activities of Italy), Archivio di Stato di Torino (State Archive of Torino) and the Biblioteca Reale di Torino (Royal Library of Torino). Manno's work was of great value, and complemented with other sources, as was Guano's work. But as far as I know was not accurate at all.
For example, Manno carries no accurate and complete genealogy of the Valperga, as they were a family from the 11th century, except giving them roles as they came in his research. The same happens with Peyretti/Peiretti: when searching "per famiglia" (by family name) for most accuracy, the current revised archives of Manno's work throw you to 2 options:

Famiglia:

Peiretti v. Peyretti e nome

Famiglia:

Peyretti (Pei retti) e nome

.

Da Racconigli, in Saluzzo ed in Torino

When you click the first (and anyone can do this), you get:

Famiglia:Peiretti v. Peyretti
Volume: 22Pagina: 212Cat. Vivant: 31535

which only means the information was revised.

Now you take the 2nd link, and it gives you this:

Famiglia:Peyretti (Pei retti)
Estinti
Da Racconigli, in Saluzzo ed in Torino.
Conti di Condove.
D’azzurro al leone d’argento, tenente, colla zampa destra un ramo di rosaio, al naturale; colla banda di rosso attraversante, carica di una cometa d’oro, verso il capo e verso la punta di un monte, di tre colli all’italiana, di verde, ristretto, cucito.
Stemma napoleonico. Troncato, il 1° partito: a) di rosso alla banda partita di nero e d’argento addestrata da un leone, sinistrata da un ramoscello piegato a decusse, il tutto d’oro, col capo d’azzurro carico di tre stelle d’oro; b) di barone presidente di Corte d’Appello; al 2° d’azzurro, al leone d’oro, colla banda di rosso, attraversante caricata, verso il capo da una cometa d’argento.


Gen.Nome1MatteoVolume: 23Pagina: 397Cat. Vivant: 32580


Which is information about their coat of arms and the recognition of their title.

There's no reference to a whole genealogy on the Peyretti's from Manno, as valid today, and this can be explained because further research proved that it had mistakes, was incomplete, or the information was not entirely reliable.

I have not found evidence of the "tailor" and "grocer" thing, except in my old Manno volume, which I have checked, but says nothing else other than "her descendants took the name Poeti-Marentini", which is contradictory and says a lot, because we all know that compound surnames, not only in Italy but the rest of Europe, were only allowed to noble people. It makes me doubt on Manno's accuracy here, and why Vivant, which has transcribed online all records proved accurate, has no mention of it.

But there are in fact, more interesting evidences in other books, especially related to the Royal Library in Turin. His Majesty the King of Italy always ordered a written survey on its notable families (from Piedmont) and says a lot (especially for the history and the way is written):

"Il casato dei Marentini, congiunto di parentela con quello dei Pejretti, produsse anche uomini ben degni di memoria. Giovanni Antonio, figlio di Sebastiano Antonio Marentini, si ammogliò in prime nozze con Elisabetta Rossi, da cui non ebbe che un figliuolo (1740), il quale vestì l'abito dei minori osservanti della provincia romana, e tornato al seccolo esercitò per molti anni il sacerdotal ministero nella chiesa cattedrale di Saluzzo, ove morì nel 1819. Giovanni Antonio Marentini sposò in seconde nozze Rosa Margarita Pejretti-Condove nel dì 15 ottobre 1744. I figli che provennero da questo fortunato connubio, furono Filippo Sebastiano, Giuseppe, Chiaffredo, Morizio e Pietro Bernardino..."

This was written by Professor Goffredo Casalis, and I'm sure you know who was he. I bet that it is now obvious that Manno missed that Giovanni Antonio, was married to Elisabetta Rossi, who was daughter, according to royal papers and Vivant itself, to the Count Rossi (or de Rossi/DeRossi) from Savigliano (oriundi di Fossano), that had the title of Conte di Pomerolo, Signore di Santa Rosa. I don't think that a simple tailor will marry two Countesses in a row, but more gross is that Manno ignored it. That is why the valid Manno records today supressed those informations. About Goffredo Casalis, you can google him online, but this is a summary of who he was:

Goffredo Casalis nacque a Saluzzo nel 1781. Orfano di padre, di intelligenza precocissima e di poca salute, venne accolto gratis nel seminario saluzzese, dove compì gli studi teologici fino all’ordinazione sacerdotale.
Iscrittosi non senza difficoltà all’Università di Torino, vi conseguì il dottorato in Belle lettere. Mal sopportando il ruolo di precettore dei rampolli di famiglie nobili ed ostacolato nelle sue aspirazioni dalle mene dei Gesuiti, cercò per tutta la vita protezioni e sicurezza economica, che gli permettessero di attendere in pace ai suoi studi storiografici.
Nel 1833 Carlo Alberto fonda la "Regia Deputazione sopra gli studi di Storia patria" ed apre agli studiosi gli archivi di Corte che fino ad allora erano stati gelosamente preservati da qualsiasi intromissione esterna. Nasce nell’abate Casalis l’idea di compilare un’opera che tratteggiasse per ciascuno Comune dello Stato sabaudo storia, caratteristiche geografiche e peculiarità socio-economiche.

I could give you hundreds of references... Professor Casalis, which was an authority in the Italian Royal family, also made a wonderful and thorough history on the Poeti and later the Poeti-Marentini (as the Peyretti and Valperga), and reading now some excerpts (I have the volume open here by my side), I can say that perhaps you're not judging accordingly the merit of the surnames, and the scope of their connections. For instance, I'm reading (quote), on Pietro Marentini:

...ritornossene quindi a Torino, e non rivide mai più quella città, ov'ebbe la culla. Cessò di vivere in questa capitale addì 3 novembre 1830, confortato ed assistito nella sua lunga e penosa malattia dalle amorevoli cure della contessa Sclopis di Salerano sua cugina e dal suo nipotte dottore e conde Morizio Poeti.

I doubt that a descendant of a "grocer" and a "tailor" (as Manno put it), would had been in the blue blood circles of Piedmont.

Then it says, about Giovanni Antonio Marentini's private library (never thought that a "tailor" had so much culture and importance for the King):

Nel 1817 il principe di Carignano Carlo Alberto, ora felicemente regnante, dando principio alla sua biblioteca, acquistò dal Marentini buon numero di eccellenti opere atte a formare un buon re, e a procurare la felicità dei popoli."

I never thought that the library of a "tailor" had so much importance for the "education of a King", as Cassalis wrote. And Cassalis knew this not by reference, but because he had access to the Royal Family's files.

[Nobilitalia]

Abou Giovanni Antonio Marentini, who Manno wrote was a simple "tailor", Casalis, who knew the history of Piemonte very well, had access to Royal papers and more information than Manno, wrote:

I genitori degli illustri Marentini, dei quali abbiam fatto cenno, furono per ogni riguardo rispettabili e nobili. Giovanni Antonio loro padre, uomo distinto per ingegno, e per somma probità, conciliavasi la stima, e l'amore de' suoi concittadini. Prima di ammogliarsi aveva visitato le città di Lione e Parigi; ed in questi suoi viaggi aveva fatto tesoro di utili cognizioni: si ammiravano in lui, sensi magnanimi, virtú religiose e civili, e soprattutto una grande propensione a soccorrere gli infelici. Nella sua consorte Rosa Pejretti-Condove trovò la donna forte, la vera madre di famiglia. Cercata ella per essere proposta (1751) a nutrice del Principe di Piemonte Carlo Emanuele, ed informata degli usi della Corte... [] Oltre i predetti figliuoli, Giovanni Antonio Marentini ebbe da lei tre figlie, due di esse dotate delle più rare doti dell'animo ricusarono di accasarsi; la terza, di nome Rosa, maritossi nel dì 25 di luglio 1786 a Luigi Poeti conte figlio di Filippo Melchiorre, il quale in tutto il corso di sua vita si mostrò lietissimo di questo felice maritaggio...

I doubt that Rosa Lucia, daughter of a Count, had married Giovanni Antonio, a simple tailor, who had been married before to a daughter of another count. And it is more inaccurate that Professor Casalis was to refer in these terms to a tailor without name or importance, as we know he wrote under the patronage of the King of Italy himself.

Then Casalis goes to talk about the "House of Poeti", in high regard:

"La casa Poeti diede anch'essa uomini degni di memoria. Stanislao Bartolommeo Poeti, fratello dell'anzidetto Melchiorre, abbracciò lo stato ecclesiastico: da' suoi piú teneri anni attese con grande amore agli studi, nei quali fece mirabili progressi. Manteneva corrispondenze letterarie... [] Il sacerdote Poeti fu dal sommo Pontefice Pio VI inviato a Napoli con importanti commissioni al nunzio della Santa Sede monsignor Caleppi, che trattava un concordato con quella corte...

Then Casalis exposes how this negotiations with the King of Napoli failed and how the noble priest went back to the Vatican, and then back to Piedmont some time later, and how il resto del tempo ei lo passava in Saluzzo con la sua genitrice, ch'era meritamente riputata como donna virtuosissima.

Then it takes Bartolommeo's brother, Filippo, and writes this:

... fratello del precedente, ebbe un figliolo dalle sue prime nozze con la damigella Teresa Giolitti, cioè Luigi Giovanni di Lorenzo, il quale sotto il governo francese fu direttore delle R. poste. Continuò il commercio de' generi coloniali già esercitato dal suo avo e dal suo padre: ampliò considerabilmente il patrimonio paterno...[]

Then Casalis continues:

Il Conte Luigi Poeti, figlio del precedente, ebbe da sua ornatissima consorte Rosa Marentini quattro figliuoli: uno di essi mancò ai vivi nella fanciullezza; uno abracciò la carriera militare, ed è insignito del grado di capitano nelle R. truppe; il primogenito di essi, per nome Agostino, si laureò in leggi nel 1811; e poco dappoi fu nominato auditore: nel 1815 passò nell'uffizio dell'avvocato generale, ove diè prove non dubbie del suo svegliatissimo ingegno, e delle sue profonde cognizioni nell diritto civile, e nell'ecclesiastico; rimase in quell'ufficio sino all'anno 1822, in cui ebbe la nomina di assessore al tribunale di Cuneo; di dove fu traslocato a Pinerolo conservando la stessa carica di assessore; gode ora di un oronato riposo: fu insignito del titolo di senatore, e poi de presidente. []

Then it takes the other Poeti, from the main line, and writes:

Morizio, fratello di lui, dotato pure di feracissimo ingegno, nacque in Saluzzo nel 1807: fatti i suoi primi studi con distinzione, sen venne a Torino nel 1824; si laureò in medicina in questa R. università nel 1828: ebbe la nomina diapplicato medico all'ospedale divisionario militare di Torino, e fu medico dei poveri dal 1835 al 1838. Per i segnalati servigii prestati mentre infieriva il colera asiatico, il Sovrano gli diede un brevetto, con cui lo creò medico di prima clase allo spedale divisionario di questa capitale. Scrisse, e pubblicò nel 1837 un opuscolo intitolato "Paracelso e la sua epoca". Nel seguente anno diede alla luce un'operetta col titolo "delle cagioni che ritardarono e ritardano il progresso dell'omeopatia". Nel 1839 pubblicò "Osservazioni di malattie curate col metodo omeopatico". Nel 1842 stampó una lettera sopra una proposizione del dottore Caramelli. Dal 1844 al 48 fu collaboratore del giornale di medicina omeopatica di Bologna. Nel 1846 fece di pubblica ragione in Genova un'operetta "sull'abuso del salasso": due anni dopo diede alla luce un volume intitolato...[] Di presente egli è direttore del giornale di medicina omeopatica che si stampa in Torino: fu eletto a socio e membro delle due società omeopatiche di Parigi, e dell'accademia reale di Napoli.

This tells even more than a genealogy or a vague reference in a genealogy, and especially more than what Manno had gathered on the subjects, which was undoubtly wrong and inaccurate. The way genealogies are verified is through records and history. I don't consider Manno on my reliable sources, as his work had problems. Manno doesn't even offer dates on the descendency 'Poeti-Marentini', nor he says anything more. That is suspicious per se.

[Nobilitalia]

Dear MAfan and amedea: I found this information about the Marentini, which I think can be of use and wanted to share. It's written in one of the books by historian Vittorio Angius. Here's the scan:





I also agree that the Poeti-Marentini, though strongly related to the Valperga (cousins and first cousins), and as the actual line comes from in part from the Peyretti di Condove, don't have such a long name, as their "Poeti-Marentini" is noble enough. There you are right amedea After making inquiries and researching a bit, there's no basis for such claim. Their surname is important enough by itself.

I also found that the Poeti (before the marriage with the Marentini and assuming the name "Poeti-Marentini"), were originally from Bologna, very noble and ancient there, as old as the Roman Republic! This I could verify on Emilia-Romagna's premier historian, Pompeo Scipione Dolfi, in his book on noble families from the city, "Cronologia delle famiglie nobili di Bologna" (Chronology of the Noble Families of Bologna). There's a complete chapter on "Poeti" in the very few families from Emilia-Romagna that can today claim nobility. Though the Bologna-line was later declared extinct (as it seems they were no male descendants from the ones that stayed there), one part of the family (with the titles) went to Piedmont and grew there.