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10-05-2009, 02:37 PM
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Courtier
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In both pics Isabella is with women who married in the aristocracy: countess Benedetta Bocca and princess Diaz della Vittoria Pallavicini Rospigliosi. The pics are from Caravaggio and Bacon's exhibition's vernissage at Villa Borghese, aren't them, Tosca?
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10-06-2009, 09:23 AM
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Heir Apparent
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 They are.  Isabella is the most beautiful among the Borromeo sisters IMO.
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10-07-2009, 01:26 AM
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Serene Highness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tosca
A couple of shots of Isabella Borromeo Arese - one of the daughters of the Count of Arona, and Beatrice's half sister-
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Isn't he actually a prince? 
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10-07-2009, 08:02 AM
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Aristocracy
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Location: Italy, Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakshmi
Isn't he actually a prince? |
No, only the Head of the House has the right to the title of Prince of Angera all other male bear the title of Count, the actual Head is Count Don Giberto Borromeo-Arese, Prince of Angera, Counta of Arona etc.
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10-07-2009, 08:08 AM
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Courtier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tosca
They are. Isabella is the most beautiful among the Borromeo sisters IMO. |
Surely the most chic of them
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10-10-2009, 07:06 AM
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Courtier
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One of Italian most distinguished and wealthy noble families, the Doria Pamphili, is facing a very delicate internal dispute. Gesine Doria Pamphili Floridi has asked the Court of Rome to state that the children her brother Jonathan Doria Pamphili had abroad (US and Ukraina) with some kind of artificial procreation are not his children according to the Italian Law. The matter was reported yesterday by "Il Secolo XIX" of Genua and today is on the national press such as "Il Corriere della Sera". The public interest of the matter is due to the problematic future the enormous artistic and cultural heritage of the family will have if there will be succession problems. And that's also the reason why Gesine went to the Court.
I believe that it is also the first time the press reports the homosexuality of Jonathan Doria Pamphili, something that instead seems to be well known in the aristocratic circles. It is reported that he actively participated to the Genua Gay Pride and that he signed a civil partnership document in the UK with a brazilian citizen (himself already well know in Roman circles).
I don't know if the matters involves the Doria Pamphili titles because I don't know if Jonathan and Gesine, being adopted children of the last Princess Doria Pamphili, have got any title.
Doria contro Doria per gli eredi in provetta| Liguria | Genova| Il SecoloXIX
La dinastia e i figli della provetta Doria Pamphilj in lite per l’eredità - Corriere della Sera
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10-10-2009, 10:51 AM
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No, this matter doesn't involve any title, because, as you have said, they are adopted children; they can bear the surname, but no titles.
This matter involves only the enormous patrimony of Gesine and Jonathan...
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10-10-2009, 03:28 PM
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Courtier
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Well I'm wondering: the rule that adopted children don't inherit titles is valid for Italian nobility because it was the law of the Kingdom of Italy, right? Is/was it like that also in the other kingdoms? Maybe pontificial titles have some differnt rule as far as adoption and titles?
About Jonathan I must say that, despite is homosexuality lived in a non-catholic way (gay prides, civil partnerships, artificial fertilization..), he seems to have a good and frequent relationship with Catholic hierarchies. On the past days for example he was at Palazzo Venezia for the opening of an exhibition about saints and power, an event that was attended by crowds of bishops, cardinal and even the Vatican Secretary of State.
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10-10-2009, 05:59 PM
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I don't think...pontificial titles were recognised by the Kingdom of Italy, at least after 1929, so I think the rules were the same...
Btw in Italy adopted children can't inherit the title; an example is Gioachino Lanza Tomasi, adopted son of writer Giuseppe Tomasi, Prince of Lampedusa; Gioachino added the Tomasi surname to his own Lanza Surname, but the titles of Giuseppe were inherited by his uncle Pietro Tomasi.
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10-12-2009, 06:52 PM
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Courtier
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Even Daily Mail has picked up the story.
Two British-born orphans adopted by regal Italian family in legal battle over £1bn fortune
Quote:
Two British-born orphans who inherited a billion-pound fortune including two Renaissance palaces and a priceless art collection are at the centre of a bitter Italian legal battle.
Archibald and Mary were plucked as babies from a Roman Catholic orphanage in London and became Prince Jonathan and Princess Gesine after they were adopted by British-born Princess Orietta Pogson Doria Pamphilij.
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10-13-2009, 02:36 AM
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Heir Presumptive
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I love  the Palazzo Doria Pamphili. Oh, to be allowed inside and be able to look at all the rooms and gaze out of all the windows would be heaven.
There is so much room you wonder why they can not just live in seperate wings in some sort of civil family unity.
Funny that such an old Italian family had become essentialy English. But why would even their natural children be given a princely titel if Orietta married Mr. Pogson?:
..His adoptive mother, British-born Princess Orietta met Roman Catholic convert Lieutenant Commander Frank Pogson in Italy during World War Two and they married in the Brompton Oratory in London in 1958.
The marriage had the blessing of Orietta’s father, who had also married an Englishwoman, and they moved to Rome.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1219838/Two-British-born-orphans-adopted-regal-Italian-family-babies-legal-battle-children-inherit-1-billion-fortune.html#ixzz0TnLDLXUT
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10-13-2009, 05:01 AM
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Well, maybe it's a bit too much to call Orietta "british born"...she was half british and half italian, and lived here in Italy...
Btw the two children have no titles, for two reasons: the first is that they were adopted children; the second is that the titles belonged to their stepmother, and in Italy titles are transmitted only in male line.
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10-13-2009, 05:07 AM
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Courtier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by susan alicia
I love the Palazzo Doria Pamphili. Oh, to be allowed inside and be able to look at all the rooms and gaze out of all the windows would be heaven.
There is so much room you wonder why they can not just live in seperate wings in some sort of civil family unity.
Funny that such an old Italian family had become essentialy English. But why would even their natural children be given a princely titel if Orietta married Mr. Pogson?: |
Palazzo Doria Pamphilj's monumental rooms are open to the public: have a look at the family's official website :: Famiglia Doria Pamphilj - Sito ufficiale , a part of it is also in english: :: Galleria Doria Pamphilj - Roma
The problem is not living in separate wings, but not to dispel the heritage and keeping it unite so that you can use the incomings to mantain the historical buildings: it must be so expensive!
Natural children would have inherited the family titles beacuse Orietta was the last member of her family. In such cases, in Italy, some titles can be inherited by a woman and her descendants.
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10-13-2009, 05:08 AM
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Yes, you're right.
But since they are not natural children...the matter doesn't exist.
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10-17-2009, 12:08 PM
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Aristocracy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAfan
Yes, you're right.
But since they are not natural children...the matter doesn't exist.
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Jonathan and Gesine are noble but not princes...they only have the right to the name Pogson Doria Pamphili, nothing more...
Only a reigning King can give the permission to bear the title, in Italy we do not have a king so the answer is easy...
There is a private association of nobles in Italy that "recognises" titles, but it is only a private association...no legal value...
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10-23-2009, 01:43 PM
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Gentry
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Some more history on Princess Orietta
Doria-Pamphilii-Landi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (not the most reliable source)
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10-23-2009, 03:32 PM
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This topic has already been faced in the italian royalty and nobility thread;
btw, both in Wikipedia and in the first article is written that Gesine and Jonathan are Princes: that's false, adopted children can't inherit titles in Italy (well, at least when titles were recognised...); they only are the heirs of the money and the goods of Donna Orietta.
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10-24-2009, 05:19 AM
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Gentry
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Yes I am aware that they cannot inherit titles as they adopted, I came across the article and thought it would be of interest, if it doesn't belong here than feel free to delete this thread.
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11-02-2009, 04:26 PM
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Leon or Lion and Ocean are "only" the translations of their names; btw, the oldest is Leone and the youngest if Oceano (nothing against John and Lavinia, but...poor baby, they've named him Oceano!  )
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