Italian Noble and Princely Families 2: July 2007- 2022

[amedea]

Giovanni is Luca's second cousin.
Giovanni and the Cardinal are second cousins once removed.

 

[Donna Mia]

Thanks Amedea for the details.

I was also under the impression that Luca was involved with a with a wine venture as well. There has been a few changes within the clan lately. Lapo's brother took the top spot at FIAT, of which Luca was the former chairman, and I heard that Luca may be making a bigger bid on politics too.

 

[amedea]

Thanks Amedea for the details.

I was also under the impression that Luca was involved with a with a wine venture as well. There has been a few changes within the clan lately. Lapo's brother took the top spot at FIAT, of which Luca was the former chairman, and I heard that Luca may be making a bigger bid on politics too.

From 1984 to 1986 he was CEO of the Cinzano international, a spirits and sparkling wine company owned by Agnelli family as almost all the companies he worked in. His appointement there, however, was a kind of punishment for asking cash to people who wanted to be introduced to his boss, Gianni Agnelli.

 

[Warren]

It's obvious that once again, agendas are being played out in this thread in support of debunked claims of nobility.
While the Administrators investigate further, posts pushing such claims will be removed.

Warren
TRF Administrator

 

[Donna Mia]

From 1984 to 1986 he was CEO of the Cinzano international, a spirits and sparkling wine company owned by Agnelli family as almost all the companies he worked in. His appointement there, however, was a kind of punishment for asking cash to people who wanted to be introduced to his boss, Gianni Agnelli.

I don't understand your statement. Wouldn't an appointment in a company be a good thing, how can that be punishment?

 

[amedea]

I don't understand your statement. Wouldn't an appointment in a company be a good thing, how can that be punishment?

He probably had a more powerfull position before.

 

[Donna Mia]

Do you mean a more powerful position in the auto industry, and moving to the wine industry was seen as a demotion?

 

[amedea]

Do you mean a more powerful position in the auto industry, and moving to the wine industry was seen as a demotion?

Exactly. This and other mistakes he made in the past may be the reason why he's thinking twice before entering politics.

 

[Donna Mia]

It seems like a run for politics would just be another "feather in his cap". It would probably be more profitable to continue as an industrialist, and with Agnelli long gone, he appears to be the top person now. But what about John Elkann? Is he holding all the others in the clan, hostage- so to say. I think all of the money went to him, and Lapo was trying to push the brand "Italia Independente", but it never really took off...especially with sunglasses costing 1200 euros or so.

 

[amedea]

It looks like Montezemolo is going to be an industrialist mainly with its own money now (his railway company will start working soon) while John Elkann will be the leader in the Agnelli's group. The thinks experts are interested in nowadays is if the group's core business will continue to be the automotive industry and the role that John's cousin Andrea Agnelli will play. Andrea was excluded at a certain point but now he is back in Juventus and he can also take Montezemolo's role in Ferrari.
Lapo had an important role in marketing for a while, then his problems with drugs and prostitues made the family exclude him from the business.

 

[Donna Mia]

Yes, interesting. I think Ferrari may end up becoming like Lamborghini, just a brand name but not really solely Italian if fully bought out by other foreign companies.

It looks like Montezemolo is pretty much interested in his own thing and will leave the Agnelli group to the Elkann's, but what do you think, when Montezemolo goes will it all fall apart? I don't really know if John or Lapo really has that much business ability to really do much, they both seem to have everything that they have just handed to them on a platter- they really didn't earn anything on talent and pure ability alone- it was mostly inherited.

 

[DAWillis]

A follow up to my post regarding the Poeti-Marentini claim to be descended from Ernst von Wallberg/Skublics.

I have been contacted by email by a gentleman who says his name (Mario Poeti-Marentini) had been used without his knowledge to pormote the claim we have discussed before. Apparently it was this discussion and others like it that brought the matter to his attention. He has told me he has turned the matter over to the appropriate authorities in Italy.

He has asked that I convey his assertion that he had no involvement with the phony foundation and the false claims being made about his ancestry. Apparently the Italian authorites have shut down the "Gräfin Alice" website and are pursuing charges against the culprit(s).

I would like to point out that this family has a noble ancestry of its own and does not have a need to manufacture one.

So where it stands now, Heinrich von Wallberg remains a childless batchelor at death.

Thanks
Dan Willis

 

[amedea]

Yes, interesting. I think Ferrari may end up becoming like Lamborghini, just a brand name but not really solely Italian if fully bought out by other foreign companies.

It looks like Montezemolo is pretty much interested in his own thing and will leave the Agnelli group to the Elkann's, but what do you think, when Montezemolo goes will it all fall apart? I don't really know if John or Lapo really has that much business ability to really do much, they both seem to have everything that they have just handed to them on a platter- they really didn't earn anything on talent and pure ability alone- it was mostly inherited.

They just need to choose good advisors and they will never have economical problems. The only thing they really have to choose it's if the want just to make their money grow (mainly with finance) or if they want to continue the industrial traditions of the family.

 

[Tosca]

To those of you who asked for news and pics of Prince and Princess Ruspoli: here they were pictured at a party in a spa village near Rome. (source U. Pizzi/dagospia)

Princess Maria Pia

Prince Lilio Sforza Ruspoli

The Prince and his wife

 

[amedea]

Leonardo Visconti di Modrone, a member of the highest Italian nobility is the new ambassador to Spain. He was received by the king few days ago. http://www.casareal.es/noticias/images/20100927_credenciales/20100927_credenciales_italia.jpg

 

[georgiea]

To those of you who asked for news and pics of Prince and Princess Ruspoli: here they were pictured at a party in a spa village near Rome. (source U. Pizzi/dagospia)

Like your avatar Tosca. How many years difference in the couples ages?

 

[MAfan]

Prince Sforza is 23 years older than his wife; now he's 83 and she 60.

 

[Vittoria Rossi]

Does anyone know if there was a Duke or Count, conflicting info on the status, of Parma by the name of Pier Maria Rossi (1413 -1482)? Back during the Renaissance he built a castle, two actually, one named Rocca Dei Rossi (1466) at San Secondo the other Castello Di Torrechiara (1448-1460) if this helps. And if you do, do you know if he died there or moved south to say the Cheiti Provence or any family move there? I really appreciate any info and help.

 

[Tosca]

Does anyone know if there was a Duke or Count, conflicting info on the status, of Parma by the name of Pier Maria Rossi (1413 -1482)? Back during the Renaissance he built a castle, two actually, one named Rocca Dei Rossi (1466) at San Secondo the other Castello Di Torrechiara (1448-1460) if this helps. And if you do, do you know if he died there or moved south to say the Cheiti Provence or any family move there? I really appreciate any info and help.

Pier Maria Rossi died inside the castle of Torrechiara on the Appennine.
The other castle situated in Roccabianca, still in the province of Parma, now belongs to a friend of mine, whose family bought it some decades ago. But they aren't aristocrats, nor related to that Rossi family.
Anyway the family name 'Rossi' is Italy's most common surname, and is hardly ever related to nobility.

PS: Thanx for moving this. You know, I'm no longer a mod... ;-)

 

[Borghese]

Any other Borghese's here ? I'm looking for some long lost relatives in the Dipignano (Southern Italy) area in the 1800's ..... Orazio Borghese 1875-1921
Also how did the Borghese's end up in Siena in 1300's - Where did they come from before that ??? Wool merchants from India ? Varghese ?

 

[Borghese]

NOBLE FAMILIES OF JEWISH ANCESTRY

According to Guy Stair Sainty :

Borghese, Princes - Originally from Germany, becoming Catholics in the late 14th or early 15th centuries. Princes of Sulmona, etc.

Aldobrandini, Princes - in the male line a branch of the Borghese family, considered of ancient Jewish origin.

Torlonia, converts at the end of the 18th century, ennobled 1794, Patricians 1809, Princes 1814, Dukes 1847. Divided into two lines of Dukes Torlonia and Princes of Civitelli Cesi The junior line became extinct in the male line and was substituted with Borghese, also of Jewish descent (q.v.), acquiring the titles of Prince Torlonia, Prince of Fucino, Canino and Musignano (these last inherited on the extinction of the male line of Bonaparte di Canino) The title of Prince of Civitelli Cesi, however, reverted to the senior line, being attached to a male majorat.

Do you know how we ended up in Siena in 1300's ? From wool merchants to bankers.

 

[Borghese]

A simple question. How did the Royal, Noble Borghese Family get it's name ? Where did Tiezzo's nephew get the name ?

ie:
Borghese of Siena

The house originated with Tiezzo da Monticiano, a 13th century wool merchant in Siena, whose nephew Borghese gave his name to the family.

 

[MAfan]

Tiezzo was a French native wool merchant; he moved to Siena, where he bought the village of Monticiano. He was father of two sons, Bencivenne and Benincasa.

Bencivenne had a son, whose first name was Borghese; he was the progenitor of Borghesi family - later Borghese - that split in two branches: one branch stayed in Siena and the other one (extinct in XVII century) moved to Florence.
In XV century, Agostino Borghesi, Nobleman of Siena was created Count by Pope Pius II; his descendant Marcantonio I moved to Rome and became the progenitor of the still existant Borghese Family.

Tiezzo's second son, Benincasa, was the progenitor of Benincasa Family, whose most preminent member was Caterina Benincasa, best known as Saint Catherine of Siena.

I guess that the surname Borghese originated from Tiezzo's great-grandchildren, the children of Borghese; at the time, children were known as X [name of the son] di Y [name of the father], that means "X (son) of Y" (i.e. St. Catherine was known as Caterina di Jacopo Benincasa). So it is possible that Borghese's children were known as "X di Borghese" and that during the years and generations all Borghese's descendants remained known under Borghesi (di Borghese, or simply Borghese) surname.

 

[Borghese]

Thanks MAfan,

I appreciate your very informative and enlightened response.

That is what I have read - that the Noble Borghese's originated in France. Do you know where in France ? Are they actually French Royalty then ??

I know that there are many Bourgeoys that came to Quebec - the most famous being
Saint Marguerite. Marguerite Bourgeoys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and Léon Victor Auguste Bourgeois who was the Prime Minister of France.

 

[MAfan]

I don't know where did they originate in France exactly.

Borghese family definitely isn't a French royal house; first of all, because the titles hold by the members of the family are all Italian titles and not French; and secondly, because Borghese family isn't a royal family: it is indeed one of the most prominent Italian aristocratic families, but not a royal one.

I also don't think that French Bourgeoys family (or families) are related with Borghese family, because the latter started using its surname only in XIII century, after Tiezzo da Monticiano (the French progenitor) came to Italy, and as far as I know none of his descendants moved back to France setting there a branch of Borghese Family.

 

[Count]

We should not forget that there was a period in the Italian history were it was "chic" to have French ancestors...during that period many families of the high Italian aristocracy tried to find out connection with French people/families.

The official books of the Italian nobiliry do not write anything about this French origin.

I understand there is a member of this family taking part in this discussion, mybe he/she could enlight us...

 

[Borghese]

The other "Borghese" (who called himself BorgheseUSA) that was on here was telling me that I was definitely NOT Nobility - has mysteriously disappeared. All he posted over and over again was that I was not Nobility - I agree. I am a commoner, " i work the land" - a borghese (small b) But my great grandfather was Orazio Borghese and I have had several discussions with Prince Lorenzo Borghese (yeah - the Bachelor) who was trying to help me learn more about my family from Southern Italy. He has confirmed that the Orazio (his great Uncle) was not the same as my Orazio. His lost a castle gambling. All I know is that my dad looks exactly like the bust of Cardinal Scipione. Maybe just a coincidence. I have some theories of where the Borghese's came from before Siena. (Palestine and then India) Capedocian Nazarines. I am working on a book to be published shortly.

 

[Count]

It will be interesting to know more about these roots from Capedocian Nazarines. Talking about this matter I am always very cautious: genealogy is a science and it always needs proofs before asserting ancestors, it is very difficult to have certainties of what happened in a so far period of the history, if you do not have evidence which date, let's say, around the year 1000 when documents were still there...
Lorenzo, I do not know him personally, he grown up in the US, I think he lives in NYC...?

 

[Borghese]

Count - in my research I have come across the "Varghese" family from India. They are mostly located in an area called Karela, India.

Syrian Malabar Nasrani - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These East-Indians (Syrian-Malabar Nasrani) are Nazarenes. They were the very 1st jewish christians - who travelled with St Tomas to this area round 52 AD. The family says that "Varghese" comes from the word "George" which means Farmer or one who works the land. I have also heard that "Borghese" originally comes from this definition. ST George was a Capedocian.

In aramaic (the language spoken by these 1st Nazarines) The letter Bet (b) is also pronounced vet (V)... So Varghese could have origially been Barghese. This could mean Son(bar) of Ghese, or Son of Yheshay (Jesse)...

Another possibilty is "Bar-rgesy" which translates into aramaic as Son of Thunder. This is how Jesus referred to the Sons of Zebedee as Sons of Thunder - Boanerges. (Mark 3:17) The plural "sons" is B'nei... the singular is Bar.

Etymoligists have always been confused by this bizarre nick name for John and James and it has always been interpretted as "Sons of Thunder" but the Syriac Pe****ta has it as B'nei-rgesy... which could have been a family name. Perhaps Zebedee's name was Zebedee Bar-ghesy. Aramaic of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am continuing my research that was originally sparked by Guy Stair Sainty: NOBLE FAMILIES OF JEWISH ANCESTRY

 

[Count]

Guy is one of the best students of history and genealogy and I believe him, he can always proof what he writes.

Also the Bulgari family (family of juwellers in Rome!) comes from Greece and somebody says that they might have origin from Russia: Bulgari=Vulgari=Volga river...mah, maybe...

As I wrote before, I am always very suspicious...