Italian Noble and Princely Families 2: July 2007-

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by plantint

Does anyone have any photos of the 3rd Duke of Addis Abeba, Flavio Badoglio. I read something interesting that his mother was the daughter of the last Emperor of Vietnam. He was born in 1973.

His father was the late Pietro Badoglio, 2nd Duke of Addis Abeba and Marquess of Sabotino (himself the grandson and heir of Marshal Pietro Badoglio, 1st Duke of Addis Abeba and Marquess of Sabotino, Prime Minister of Italy in 1934-1944), and his mother is Phuong Mai, the eldest daughter of Emperor Bao Dai of Vietnam and his wife Nam Puhong.

[Baroness Squigy]

I was just wondering what the daughters of Dukes were called in Italy. I read several places that they took their father/mothers title. Does that mean all the recognised descendants are Dukes/Duchesses? You see, my great great great grandfather was a Duke of Italy around 1890, and while I realise this makes me nothing cause I'm in America, I just wanna know what it WOULD have made me. Here is my brief ancestry:

Duke
Female
Male
Female
Female
Me

Thanks.

[Leslie2006]

Lol. Nice. You'd probably be a lady or something since you're down so far in the line.

As far as I know, Italy follows Luxembourg's exampe of succession: only males can inherit, so while the daughters of a duke generally hold the title Princess, they are knocked out of the line of inheritence.

-Duke
-Princess
-Count/Lord
-Countess/Lady
-Lady
-Possibly Lady or no title at all

I'm only guessing as far as titles go, but that's generally how they work. The further down the line, the lesser the titles become until there are none, since those descendants are too far removed from the monarch. Younger children of a duke would be styled the same as the older ones; the age doesn't matter. The direct relation, how far or close, is what counts. For example, in Russia, the children of a reigning tsar were titled grand dukes and grand duchesses. The tsar's grandchildren through the male line were grand dukes and grand duchesses, and the great-grandchildren through the male line were princes and princesses. Anyone down further than that were either counts/countesses or had no title at all, unless they married someone with a title. The tsar's grandchildren through the female line inherited any titles from their father, or none at all if the father didn't have any. In the rare case of Grand Duchess Kenia's children, since she married a cousin who was a grand duke, her children were title prince/ss. Then there's the issue of morganatic marriages; if a male descendant of the tsar married a divorced person or without the tsar's consent, the marriage was considered morganatic, therefore any children from that marriage did not inherit any of the father's titles. They may be given the courtesy title of count/ess or none at all.

Like this:

Tsar Alexander III
-Nicholas (grand duke, later tsar)
-4 daughters, all grand duchesses
-1 son, a grand duke as well as heir
Tsar Alexander III
-Ksenia (grand duchess)
married her cousin, Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich
-1 daughter, a princess
-6 sons, all princes

Hope this helps! :)

[Baroness Squigy]

How is the daughter of a Duke called a Princess? I thought Prince/Princess out ranked a Duke. He wasn't a Grand Duke, just a Duke.

[amedea]

No, in Italian nobility ducal titles in 99% of the cases refer to a dukedom: so just 1 of the sons can inherit the title and the dukedom and that's the 1st born. In Rome and South Italy aristocracy (similarly to the spanish aristocracy) however it is frequent that a person has many titles and decide to leave at least one of them to cadet sons. And usually when a family obtained a ducal title, they obtained also the treatment of don (for all the male members) and of donna (for all the female members). So the daughter of a duke is "donna of the dukes of.." and the son is "don of the dukes of". This treatment passed to the children of the sons and not to the children of the daughters.
Piedmontese nobility has a different tradition: until XIX century there were usually no title for cadets (just courtesy titles)..then, I think with the formation of the kingdom of Italy, they obtained that all family members would be "nobles of the" followed by the title of the chief of the family..however in Piedmont the ducal title was very rare..

[MAfan]

In Italy, Dukes come after Princes and before Marquises; dukes are styled His/Her Excellency (the same as Princes), while their descendants are Don/Donna X of the Dukes of Y. For example, Queen Paola of the Belgians, before her marriage, was Donna Paola Ruffo di Calabria, dei Duchi di Guardia Lombarda (Donna Paola Ruffo di Calabria, of the Dukes of Guardia Lombarda).

[Danjel]

Originally Posted by amedea

Anybody knows if this is prince Carlo Massimo di Arsoli, son of princess Maria Adelaide of Savoy-Genua or prince Carlo Massimo Lancellotti or another prince Carlo Massimo? http://www.dagospia.com/mediagallery/dago_gallery-8589/247072.htm the pic was taken at the Suspisio birthday party were, between others, I also noticed a stunning Vittoria Windish-graetz, she's always beautiful and young-looking despite the pregnancies! http://www.dagospia.com/mediagallery/dago_gallery-8589/247054.htm

You are quite right, it is her son and his wife..

[Baroness Squigy]

Okay, thanks. Like I said, it really doesn't matter to me. Just curious.

[amedea]

prince Vittorio Alliata di Montereale and his family, who usually live in the Hawaii, were in Rome and in Italy in the past days. To organize the ball they held in Palazzo Borghese and their vacation program, that involved many and international friends, they create this website AlliataHI: Home

[susan alicia]

I am surprised we are allowed to see it, the Palazzo Borghese looks magical

[Tosca]

Countess Beatrice Borromeo attending the presentation of a new newspaper and a new instat book in Rome. (U.Pizzi da Zagarolo/Dagospia)

With journalist Marco Travaglio

With her mother Countess Paola Marzotto

With writer Peter Gomez

With a guest

With another guest

[Tosca]

Lavinia Borromeo and her mother Countess Marion Zota, an ex-model, shoping in Milan:

Dipiù 1

Dipiù 2

[susan alicia]

Are Lavinia and beatrice princesses or countresses by birth?

[amedea]

They have the title of "donna of the counts" Borromeo. Beatrice has also said that she hasn't right to any title as their parents marriage wasn't religious (or because they weren't married yet at her birth?) .

[MAfan]

Because her parents weren't married (and I remember she said they're still not married, but I'm not totally sure about it).

[Tosca]

The article where I scanned the pictures from said that Lavinia's mother is a German Countess by birth.
If Lavinia's father and Marion Zota were married in the church, then he couldn't marry Beatrice's mother in a religious ceremony, unless he had his previous marriage annuled.

[MAfan]

In several interviews, she said that her father Don Ferdinando married "Zota" (as Marion is called by her children and stepchildren), with whom he had Isabella and Lavinia; then he dated Paola Marzotto, with whom he had Carlo, and then again he returned to his wife, and they had Matilde. Then again he returned dating Paola, and had Beatrice. Now Don Ferdinando is still married to his wife Marion; he refers to Marion and Paola as "the two women of his life".

[susan alicia]

I asked because in the point de vue of this month they call Lavinia a princess and in wikipedia a countess
Point de Vue *.:.* L' ÉLUE .:. Lavinia Elkann

I find their palazzo on the isola bella very romantic
http://www.borromeoturismo.it/script...g=en&loc=bella

[MAfan]

She is not Princess; only the head of the Borromeo Family is Prince (of Angera).

[Tosca]

Originally Posted by MAfan

he refers to Marion and Paola as "the two women of his life".

I saw a man on the TV today saying that his wife, with whom he's had a son, and his companion, with whom he's had a girl, are the two women of his life, and that he loves them both. He said that the two of them made the perfect woman he's always been dreaming of. Strange views!