Italian Noble and Princely Families 2: July 2007- 2022

[MAfan]

Giovanni Agnelli the elder was officer in "Nizza cavalleria" regiment of the Italian Army; his son Edoardo was an officer in a cavalry regiment, but I don't know which one. Edoardo's sons Gianni and Umberto were both officers in "Nizza Cavalleria" regiment as well.

 

[Donna Mia]

Hi MAfan,

Thanks much.

I was doing a bit of research on the princely families connected to the Agnelli family, and I also wanted to head over to the Museo Storico dell'Arm di Cavalleria di Pinerolo and do some research over there too. I appreciate any names of officers or what anyone knows to help direct my research.

By chance, I also looked at their web page, and there is some images of Agnelli officers. Take a look... there are on the right: "Avvocato Giovanni Agnelli" and "Senatore Giovanni Agnelli". Il Museo Storico di Pinerolo - Sala Coppe e Trofei

 

[Warren]

However, I really don't understand your question about what branch...
Finally, it is not my intention to keep posting about the Barbaro family...

You do your credibility no favours by refusing to respond to Count's question:

The main question is: why Mr. Vitus is not listed in the "Libro d'Oro della Nobiltà Italiana" and Italian member of a noble family, or in the "Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels" as Princely Count...? is is possible that these two important books have forgotten a so important branch of the Barbaro family?

Once a question is raised (and raised by a respected and highly knowledgeable member) your response of "it is not my intention to keep posting about the Barbaro family..." appears to be a rapid strategic withdrawal from further discussion or debate.

 

[Donna Mia]

The San Gregorio branch and all of its members and lines are fully documented. Also, the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels never published genealogies of Italian noble families, as for the modern published Libro d'Oro's etc., they are not truly noble genealogies either. They are privately published directories that an aristocrat can be included into if he/she pays a fee. Inclusion or lack of inclusion is a matter of choice and payment. The last volume published (xxii) is for the years 2000-2004, and was published in September of 2000. Vitus didn't even become the head of his branch till July 2003-2004. Most Italian aristocrats don't even want to be included for privacy reasons, and the publication is failing. It use to be published within 4 year blocks, the last was in 2000- it hasn't even kept up with the times. People aren't really buying them and aristocrats tend to not want to be listed.

I can't be here all of the time, because I don't have the time- that's my interest in being brief. So if anyone does have more information on my question about Agnelli cavalleria members, please post. I will check from time to time, and thank you MAfan for your post. I appreciate and respect the knowledge of all members in the forum.

 

[MAfan]

You're welcome, Donna Mia.

Btw, I'm sorry, but I still can't understand: which branch of Barbaro Family would Vitus be member of?

 

[Donna Mia]

Barbaro Yachting Monaco

Thanks MAfan- you are so sweet San Gregorio.

What I am curious about is finding out if the princely count owns or is involved with Barbaro Yachting Monaco. There is some ancient history between the House of Grimaldi and the House of Barbaro. Look here: http://www.mondialbroker.it/companies.taf?a=detail&z=4958&K=AZS The web page says BY Monaco, but it appears that the BY stands for "Barbaro Yachting". There also seems to be an Enrico Barbaro involved with it too, a relative, I don't know?

 

[Count]

Dear Donna,

thanks for your post about the German title, I speak German and I translated directly from this language without thinking, you are right, it is gefürsteter.
Do you remember what I wrote you about the informations in the net ? you hit the target with the website Almanach de Saxe Gotha - Annual Royal Genealogical Reference, this is the example of wrong information, please pay attention :
I wrote you « Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels », the website is « Gotha Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels »… , further the « Almanach de Saxe Gotha » never existed, the old publication was « Almanach de Gotha », as you see a word makes the difference between a serious book a website with wrong informations…
Please have a look to the following page
www.almanachdegotha.org/id63html
if you are Italian and you know aristocracy you will understand that this site is a mix of real existing families and other fantasy families or with wrong titles, as:
His Royal ( !!!) Highness Giancarlo Bonifazi di Statte, de jure Prince of Tournai . I think Bonifazi are Counts
Prince Ralph of Etruria ( ???),
« Prince « Castracane degli Antelminelli, they are Counts…
Who is HSH Prince Don John Malcom Cracknell, Duke of Massa and Carrara ??? this dukedom was a possession of the duke of Modena, now Austria Este.
There is also the Prince of Seborga !!!!!
HE Count Mariano Windisch Gaetz, this is a real Prince and Serene Highness !
Have a look to C. A. Starke Verlag Limburg - Bücher und Veröffentlichungen über Ahnenforschung, Heraldik und Genealogie and you will find the real Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels…
I agree with you when you write that the "Libro d'Oro" is a private publication and the same for the "Corpo della Nobiltà Italiana", this is the only "official" body of the Italian nobility and "Libro d'Oro" is the only official list of noble families. Families pay to be there, of course, but they can be listed only after a proof of their titles.

Hi Count,

I am sure you know many things about the aristocracy.

However, I really don't understand your question about what branch. I believe that was made clear in what I previously wrote. I also don't gather my information from the internet. I check primary sources first hand for accuracy.

Finally, it is not my intention to keep posting about the Barbaro family, but may I just correct something you posted now. The traditional wording for "princely count" in German is Gefursteter graf , not Furstlicher graf. Some may like to look at the official page of the Almanach de Gotha where rankings are listed. Go to gefursteter graf/graefin for the German ranking of princely count: Imperial and Royal European Titles, Styles and Ranks

I am sure it was just a typing mistake on your part, Count, but its good for others out there.

 

[Donna Mia]

Ciao conte

It's great to hear from you!

Yes, you are absolutely right about the Libro d'Oro... the ones that do choose to pay to have their family name etc. inscribed into the book, are in fact genuine nobility.

Thanks for the additional information Count!

 

[Donna Mia]

Excellent picture of the plane of flying ace Prince Fulco Ruffo. Posting for the pleasure of others. Rather unusual personal emblem for the prince of a skull and crossbones. Please take a look:

SPAD VII dell'asso Fulco Ruffo di Calabria

The prince was trained for the cavalleria, but instead moved over to the airforce during the First World War. Here is a picture of him in uniform, also an image of his earlier plane in all white. The previous yellow one was for when he became squadrone leader. There is also some more information on his medals as well.

Take a look: Fulco Ruffo di Calabria

Fulco had 20 victories in the air when he became head of his squadrone. He was shot down on October 23, 1918 and lived till August 23, 1946.

Another great photograph of the "pirate" prince: http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/prima/fulco_ruffo_stemma.jpg

Image of the arms of Fulco's branch of Ruffo: http://www.tefnet.it/images/uploads/Ruffo_di_Calabria_thumb.jpg

The brown plane in the Fulco Ruffo link is the Ansaldo A1, the first fighter plane built in Italy. It was actually designed by Count Aldo Barbaro (of the San Gregorio branch of the Benedetto Barbaro line, the line of princely counts for San Gregorio were only from Giambattista Barbaro) and engineer Giuseppe Brezzi. Aldo used an Ansaldo to break a South American flight record in 1923, but died tragically in the effort. Links have more information: http://aeropuertoparaoruro.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24&itemid=26 ; http://aviationpioneers.blogspot.com/ ; http://www.cinemascine.net/paginas/contenido.php?con=inedito&id=9

 

[Donna Mia]

House of Medici

The arms of the House of Medici has so much variation depending on branch that it is a headache just trying to remeber them all. I'm listing the variations below to make it easier for reference:

Florence branch:

A gold shield with six equal balls arranged in a ring. The top center ball is blue with 3 fluer de lis in gold. The other 5 balls are red.

Milan branch:

Just like the Florence branch, but the blue ball is larger than the rest.

Naples and Turin branches:

The majority of the bottom part of the arms is just like the Milan branch. Also, there is a band across the top in blue with crossed papal keys and a papal canopy centered in gold.

Pago, Zara and Sebenico branches:

Six equal red balls placed in a ring on a silver shield. No fluer de lis on any ball.

Verona branch:

Alternating diagonal stripes from left to right in colors of silver and blue.

2nd Milan branch (ramo secondogenito):

A winged griffon rampante in green on horizontal alternating bands of blue and silver. A larger blue band across the top has three balls centered and placed like a pyramid in silver.

2nd Torino branch (ramo secondogenito):

A Roman she-wolf feeding Romulus and Remus centered in gold on a red band across the top of the arms. Below is an architectural ruin of a palazzo in brown on a gold field. Completely surrounding the lower portion is a band of alternating checkerboard of red and gold.

 

[Warren]

Some representations of the Medici Coats of Arms
(attributions are subject to correction)

1 & 2 - House of Medici, Florentine branch (Grand Dukes of Tuscany)
3 - Papal Arms of Clement VII
4 - Papal Arms of Leo XI
5 - Milan branch
6 - Verona branch

 

[MAfan]

I didn't know we have (or had) a branch of Medici family here in Verona! Any more news on them?

 

[Marc23]

Here is a link where you can follow their line from the Princes of Ottajano to the first known Medici(through red letters):

Medici 7

Papa Leone XI is also from Ottajano line and was born Alessandro di Ottaviano de' Medici as well as popes Leon X and Clemente VII...

Here is also one more link to this Medici line:

Famiglia de' Medici

Here is also a link about Ottaviano de’ Medici di Toscana di Ottajano who wrote a book about his family:

Edizioni Polistampa - Ottaviano de’ Medici di Toscana di Ottajano




Can anyone tell me more about this branch of the family?

 

[Donna Mia]

The Verona branch of the Medici has roots that stretch back to June 16, 1403 under Roberto de Medici, and in 1406 the branch were granted the title of Nobile Consiglio di Verona, first to a Vincenzo de Medici. The branch was also awarded the title of Counts of Caprara (on June 12, 1621) and Counts of Gavardo (on Aprile 6, 1796). Following the Congress of Vienna, the Verona branch reconfirmed their standing as Nobile on May 3, 1821. The branch's comital titles were reconfirmed on April 3, 1822.

The branch's coat of arms is the blue and silver striped shield posted by Warren above.

The Ottajano branch is actually the one from Naples and Turin. If you flip back to page 20, the branch's coat of arms is the "Naples and Turin branches" with the papal keys and canopy ( like the photograph of the carving in the link you posted).

This branch of Medici is connected to popes Leon X, Clemente VII, and Leon XI, and their roots are of Tuscan princes. The two major lines of the Ottajano were given fuedal titles first to Giuliano and Giovanni de Medici as Marquis of Castellina and Prince of Ottajano (also spelled Ottaiano in old Italian).

The secondary line of this branch was given the title of Patrician of Naples (for all males) and Nobles of the Princes of Ottajano (for both the males and females of the line).

 

[princesslily]

Does someone know about the Orsini family?

Just watched a handsome prince, last name 'Orsini' on the Australian Ladette to Lady TV Show. Can anyone give light to his background as in the current Royal Orsini family? I love Italians!

 

[amedea]

Just watched a handsome prince, last name 'Orsini' on the Australian Ladette to Lady TV Show. Can anyone give light to his background as in the current Royal Orsini family? I love Italians!

Was he this guy? http://www.orsini-gotha.com/principe lelio niccolo orsini.jpg

 

[Donna Mia]

Just watched a handsome prince, last name 'Orsini' on the Australian Ladette to Lady TV Show. Can anyone give light to his background as in the current Royal Orsini family? I love Italians!

What did the prince do on the show?

 

[princesslily]

Was he this guy? http://www.orsini-gotha.com/principe%20lelio%20niccolo%20orsini.jpg

Doesn't look like him unless he changed his hair?!

Here is the clip on Ladette to Lady (enjoy!) (Watch the whole clip as he talks to the camera twice)

YouTube - Ladette to Lady (UK. Aus. 2009) part 18

Any info on him would be great! What a handsome Italian nobleman!

 

[Donna Mia]

Marchesa Luisa Casati

Marchesa Casati was one of the most eccentric and stylish aristocrats of Italy.

Luisa Casati was the inspiration for the current fashion label of "Marchesa".

Enclosed is a link devoted to her. She is discussed in relation to other period luminaries, such as the poet Gabriele d'Annunzio, and her famous portrait by Giovanni Boldini can also been seen by opening the link of his name.

http://www.marchesacasati.com/bio.html

 

[MAfan]

Yesterday I was reading Wikipedia's page on Licio Gelli, Italian financier and Venerable Master of Masonic lodge Propaganda Due; it says that Gelli was created Count by King Umberto II.
Is it true? And is it known why did the King ennoble such a controversial man?

 

[amedea]

Yes it's true, the royal decree was signed on 10 july 1980. I can speculate that somebody involved in P2 (many of them were influential people) happened to be close to the king and convinced him to ennoble Mr Gelli. Btw here an article in which the duke of Aosta talk about this. The official reasons for the ennoblement are: work as writer and as an argentinian plenipotenciary minister (in the years of the argentinian dictatorship) and also fighting in the spanish civil war for Franco. il duca: difendo il conte Gelli

 

[Donna Mia]

Lapo Elkann Polo Host Committee

It appers that Lapo Elkann was on the host committe for Prince Harry's polo match in America. http://experience.veuve-clicquot.com/us/polo/

Was Lapo on it to push for Ferrari as the official car for the match?

 

[DAWillis]

While researching the claims of one Luigi Poeti-Marentini that he is descended from Archduke Ernst and his wife, Laura Skublics de Bessenyö et Velike, I discovered this thread where the same topic is being discussed.

First off: I am now of the opinion that Poeti-Marentini is a fake. My research has shown he seems to have concocted a fairly elaborate claim to be descended from Archduke Ernst's son Heinrich von Wallburg. And it seems to all be done to get money through a phony foundation.

Next: Here are some answers to Wallburg questions that come up on this thread. Archduke Ernst and Laura Skublics did indeed marry (I have the marriage record). But they did so without permission from Emp. Franz Joseph. They eloped to Ljubljana (then called Laibach). The priest who married them was Laura's cousin, and one of the witnesses was Ernst's brother, Heinrich.

Franz Joseph was aware this had happend and was willing to let sleeping dogs lie as long as Ernst & Laura remained discreet, which they were. Laura adopted the name Frau von Wallburg upon marriage, and they had four children, also named von Wallburg. Elder daughter Laura was mentally ill (retarded? insane? it is not clear); younger daughter, Clothilde married twice: Sedul Pegger and then Jenö Szimics, had 3 children by Pegger, (the son was killed in WWI and the daughters married Italians and have many descendants remaining today); elder son, Ernö, I'll talk more about; younger son, Heinrich committed in 1888, his death certificate lists him as unmarried.

Fast forward to 1909. Ernst, Laura, Laura Jr., and Heinrich are all dead, Clothilde is married to her 2nd husband. So Ernö is the only von Wallburg left. He begins parading around Budapest as "Baron" (never created) von Wallburg and claiming that the Imperial Court in Vienna deprived him of his inheritance. He & Clothilde sued for a fortune that they thought thier father had left behind. Vienna claimed their father died so far in debt, it consumed all of his estate, the kids claimed Ernst had vast wealth beyond what Vienna was admitting to.

The end result was the Emperor won (big surprise!) and he punished Ernö by declaring Ernst & Laura's marriage to be invalid since they did not ask permission. An Imperial order was issued requiring the civil records and the church to change the birth and baptismal records to reflect that the children and grandchildren of Ernst & Laura were illegitimate and changed the names to Skublics de Bessenyö et Velike (Skublics is the named used for day-to-day purposes, but the full name is still the legal name). I have copies of all of the baptismal records of Ernö's children; the name von Wallburg is crossed through and Skublics added with a notation of the date in 1909 it was done and that it was by Imperial Decree.

I am slowly putting together a book about Ernst, Laura and their descendants, so I have tons of info about them. Someone asked about Éva (Skublics) Pados, Egon's daughter. As far as I know she and her husband are still alive. Last I heard about them was 4-5 months ago. I maintain contact with their sons.

Back to Poeti-Marentini: He claims his grandmother is one Alice von Wallburg-Habsburg. There is not, nor ever was, such a person. The name Wallburg-Habsburg is a fiction. As far as I can tell, no one from the Wallburg line ever used the Habsburg name. I actually asked Archduke Otto several years ago when he made all of the morganaut Habsburgs Graf/Gräfin von Habsburg if this title was extended to the Wallburg descendants and he told me it did not.

Hope this clears up some stuff.
Daniel Willis

 

[Corvus Corax]

I found your post debunking "Alice von Wallburg-Habsburg" quite interesting. In my opinion, very few of Europe's "ancient noble lineages" have any real genetic validity. Their current representatives are, in fact , the descendants of well-connected bourgeoisie who made the transition to the nobility by annexing themselves to some pre-existing noble family, whose own ancestors had probably done exactly the same thing a couple of centuries previously.

 

[Donna Mia]

I was wondering if anyone knows more about the family of poet Dante Alighieri. From my understanding, he comes from an impoverished noble line of Firenze. Dante Alighieri - Poems, Biography, Quotes

 

[MAfan]

Yes, Alighieri family was a Tuscan noble family, but I don't know whether they had some title or not.

Dante's son Pietro moved in Verona, where in 1353 he bought some lands in Gargagnago, near to Sant'Ambrogio di Valpolicella, 15km north-west of Verona; there he built a wonderful mansion, still in possession of his descendants: Villa Serego-Alighieri.
The male line of the family ended in 1558 at the death of Francesco Alighieri, who didn't had male issue; his assets and surname were inherited by the husband of his niece Ginevra, Marcantonio Serego, who took the surname Serego-Alighieri.
Today Serego-Alighieri family is headed by Count Pieralvise, born in 1954, who lives in the family mansion and is a wine producer (and excellent wine). He's married and father of two daughters.

 

[Hereditary Thane]

Italian Noble and Princely Families

I am probably being pedantic but if I remember my undergraduate Human Sciences courses. nobility is not actually in the genes - of anyone! It is an achievement. In most European countries nobility is hereditary in the male line, though in Hungary, Spain and Scotland nobility can, and often does, pass through female lines.

If we all observed democratic legislative laws then we should treat the great great grandchildren of former German and Austrian aristocrats as our universal equals; but do we?

 

[The Traveller]

Princely Count Vitus Sebastian Barbaro is the great-grandson of Princely Count Giambattista Valerianus Barbaro of the line "Barbaro dell'Albergo". That line of the Barbaro family also uses Albergo as a surname. His mother is of a Germanic/Italian aristocratic family, and her father the last baron of the line just died recently, there was a story about him, and he was laid to rest in Rome.

Princely Count Vitus Sebastian Barbaro also invented the "Barbaro knot" for ties- which has been featured in a few fashion articles. He is well known for "sprezzatura".

Sprezzatura (fashion)

Actually, Vitus Sebastian Barbaro is a complete hoax. Go back two pages on this thread and you'll see the various false claims systematically demolished. Don't worry, you aren't the first person to be fooled by this hoaxer.

That's where research is helpful. The more you know, the more obvious the Vitus Barbaro hoax is.

The real Barbaros and their real accomplishments were quite interesting.

 

[The Traveller]

Following are the branches of Barbaro family:

of San Giorgio (noble of the Marquis)
of Sant'Angelo (Venitian Patrician)
of Torino (Count and Venician Patrician)
of Galizia (Veniatian Patrician)
of San Gregorio (Venitian Patrician and Count)

When and how did the San Giorgio and San Gregorio branches gain their titles?

 

[Donna Mia]

On the topic of wines again, I was curious if someone knew more about Cordero wines. Cordero di Montezemolo - Wine Cellar Monfalletto

Is Giovanni, Luca di Montezemolo's brother or cousin?
What relation is Giovanni to the Cardinal di Montezemolo?