HRH Duke Carlos Javier (1970- ) and the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma: August 2010-

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Tosca

Actually the people of Parma couldn't care less about nobility. This is always been one of the most red cities in Italy

However there's always been ONE Duchess of Parma, who's still much loved despite the passing of the decades: Marie Louise of Habsburg, Napoleon's second wife. She's Maria Luigia to us.

Of course very few Parmesans long back to the days of the monarchy. At the same time we must say the Piazza della Steccata (in pre-COVID era) was full with people for the funeral of Carlo Ugo di Borbone:
http://https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kg7w6EKhwN0/hqdefault.jpg"

Without doubt it is because of curiousness and sensation but if it did not interest anyone for one second, no one would have waited there on the Piazza. So the question was: do people know there is a Duke of Parma? Apparently they are not totally unknown.

It will not be different with a Duque de Bragança walking around in Coimbra or a Herzog von Württemberg walking around in Karlsruhe. It is there. No more, no less.

[maria-olivia]

Your comparison is not right . The Duke of Parma is living in the Netherlands and why not in Parma you says he is not totally unknown.

[eya]

Princess Cecilia of Bourbon-Parma has died in Paris at the 86th years-old.

Her brother, Prince Sixte-Henri announced her death

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-NqZrSX...g&name=900x900

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by eya

Princess Cecilia of Bourbon-Parma has died in Paris at the 86th years-old.

Her brother, Prince Sixte-Henri announced her death

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-NqZrSX...g&name=900x900

What a sad news. I already missed Marie Cécile at her sister's funeral in Parma, this weekend. I am surprised that Prince Sixte made this announcement because some timw there was distance between him and hia younger sisters. Maybe the relationship has improved recently.

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

Your comparison is not right . The Duke of Parma is living in the Netherlands and why not in Parma you says he is not totally unknown.

The main residence is in The Hague indeed but the comparison was about knowing "their Duke". The people of Parma will probably have no idea who their Duke is and that will not be different to the average person in Stuttgart on the question "Do you know the Duke of Württemberg?".

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by eya

Princess Cecilia of Bourbon-Parma has died in Paris at the 86th years-old.

Her brother, Prince Sixte-Henri announced her death

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E-NqZrSX...g&name=900x900

The duke of Parma did the same thing. He praised his aunt's dedication to the Carlist cause 'just like my father Carlos Hugo and my aunts Maria Theresa and Maria de las Nieves'.

He also drew attention to his aunts work in Laos, Biafra etc. She was apparently also a pilot and as a volunteer for the order of Malta she flew helicopters with aid.

The princess lived for years in Paris with her two other unmarried sisters. I am not sure why the crazy brother is sending out this comuniqué AFAIK he lives estranged from the rest of his direct family except for his elder sister.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Marengo

The duke of Parma did the same thing. He praised his aunt's dedication to the Carlist cause 'just like my father Carlos Hugo and my aunts Maria Theresa and Maria de las Nieves'.

He also drew attention to his aunts work in Laos, Biafra etc. She was apparently also a pilot and as a volunteer for the order of Malta she flew helicopters with aid.

The princess lived for years in Paris with her two other unmarried sisters. I am not sure why the crazy brother is sending out this comuniqué AFAIK he lives estranged from the rest of his direct family except for his elder sister.

It is a first step that Sixte Henri de Bourbon de Parme mentioned his sister Marie Cécile at all. Both he and his sister Marie Françoise, douairière de Lobkowicz, acted stony silent when Marie Thérèse passed away, last year.

Maybe Sixte realized his world at Lignières is incrrasingly becoming smaller. He seems to have a "political secretariat" which posts on Facebook, but only the one ultra-catholic thing after the other. He stands for a total different Carlism, longing for the era in which the Bourbons, the aristocracy and the Church ruled Spain and France.

Democracy, citizen participation, woke culture: it will feel like pure craziness for Sixte Henri and Marie Françoise.

With mantilla: Marie-des-Neiges de Bourbon de Parme
In the middle: Marie-Thérèse de Bourbon de Parme
In crème: Marie-Cécile de Bourbon de Parme

The three sisters whom were very close to their late brother Carlos-Hugo and his family.

https://www.ppe-agency.com/500px/Sep...PE16092545.jpg

Seeing that Prince Sixte Henri is quite close to his eldest sister Princess Marie-Françoise, douairière de Lobkowicz, I think the domain and the château de Lignières will go to his nephew Charles-Henri, Prince de Lobkowicz.

Via his mother Marie-Françoise he already is the proprietaire of the Château de Nouveau-Bostz, the Château de Vieux-Bostz, the Château de Fourchaud and the Manoir d'Ujezd. With the Château de Lignières it would make him a single unmarried man owning four castles while his cousin, the Duke of Parma, was left with none.

By the way: the money lies not in these money-exhausting castles... It lies with the lands around which brings in annual rents by farmers and tennants.

Besides this Marie-Françoise also inherited lands in Ujezd (Czech Republic), the ancestral lands of the Lobkowicz princes. The Lobkowicz Palace there is now the German Embassy in Prague.

Château de Nouveau-Bostz
https://www.eventail.be/images/artic...u-du-Bostz.jpg

Château de Vieux-Bostz
https://img.lamontagne.fr/jxfD33YS2H...Mzc2NTEyNA.jpg

Château de Fourchaud
https://www.eventail.be/images/artic...-Fourchaud.jpg

Château de Lignières
https://image.jimcdn.com/app/cms/ima...2090/image.jpg

[lucien]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

It is a first step that Sixte Henri de Bourbon de Parme mentioned his sister Marie Cécile at all. Both he and his sister Marie Françoise, douairière de Lobkowicz, acted stony silent when Marie Thérèse passed away, last year.

Maybe Sixte realized his world at Lignières is incrrasingly becoming smaller. He seems to have a "political secretariat" which posts on Facebook, but only the one ultra-catholic thing after the other. He stands for a total different Carlism, longing for the era in which the Bourbons, the aristocracy and the Church ruled Spain and France.

Democracy, citizen participation, woke culture: it will feel like pure craziness for Sixte Henri and Marie Françoise.

Sixte was in no position to announce the dead of his sister except putting himself in the soo missed spotlight.Neither he nor the lobcowitz douarriere gave a fig for Cecilie who was so totally different then his and hers closeted global spectrum.

It is for the Head of the Family to announce what needs to be announced,not for Sixte.Ever.And no,there is no reconciliation between him and the present Duke and further family.

Princess Cecily lead an admirable life in compassion and the service to and for others all her life.

R.I.P.

[Duc_et_Pair]

There seems to be a Carlist Movement in Latin-America (using the old name "Virreinato de Nuevo España" / "Vice-Kingdom of New Spain"):

The traditionalist circles of New Spain join the loss of His Royal Highness Don Sixto Enrique de Borbón: Legitimate King of these lands, due to the sorrowful death of his sister Doña María Cecilia de Borbón-Parma y Borbón-Busset.

We join in prayers for the eternal rest of her soul, in addition to asking Doña María Cecilia to give us the necessary graces to continue in the undertaking of building His Kingdom; always hoping to unite in praise of the glory of Divine Majesty.

Requiem æternam dona ei Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei.

¡Dios, Patria, Fueros y Rey! (God, Country, Law and King!)


https://gazeta.mx/blog/2021/09/01/condolencias/


By the way: Prince Sixte Henri does not claim to be the rightful Duke of Parma. Sixte himself has never explicitly asserted his right to the throne of Spain; rather, he has stated that he would prefer to remain regent in the hope that one of his nephews may return to traditional Carlist ideology. It are more the Carlists styling him as King, like in this condoleance.

[lucien]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

There seems to be a Carlist Movement in Latin-America ("Nuevo España") as well:

The traditionalist circles of New Spain join the loss of His Royal Highness Don Sixto Enrique de Borbón: Legitimate King of these lands, due to the sorrowful death of his sister Doña María Cecilia de Borbón-Parma y Borbón-Busset.

We join in prayers for the eternal rest of her soul, in addition to asking Doña María Cecilia to give us the necessary graces to continue in the undertaking of building His Kingdom; always hoping to unite in praise of the glory of Divine Majesty.

Requiem æternam dona ei Domine, et lux perpetua luceat ei.

¡Dios, Patria, Fueros y Rey! (God, Country, Law and King!)


https://gazeta.mx/blog/2021/09/01/condolencias/

Rediculous out of this world and reason sort of chaps.Pretentious...name it...

Oh plueeze,we know about Sixte s hanky panky in Central and South America,but can't eloborate on that here in this forum,it doesn t belong here.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by lucien

Rediculous out of this world and reason sort of chaps.Pretentious...name it...

Oh plueeze,we know about Sixte s hanky panky in Central and South America,but can't eloborate on that here in this forum,it doesn t belong here.

Of course it does belong here. This thread is about the House of Bourbon-Parma and Sixte is very much the uncle to the current Duke. The "crazy claim" is upheld by Carlos Javier and by Jaime as well. Very intelligent persons with apparently a strange twist in their logics.

[lucien]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Of course it does belong here. This thread is about the House of Bourbon-Parma and Sixte is very much the uncle to the current Duke. The "crazy claim" is upheld by Carlos Javier and by Jaime as well. Very intelligent persons with apparently a strange twist in their logics.

I was pointing at the specifics of Sixte,not at his membership of the house.

Claims of this magnitude are more couleur locale & tradition then anything else this day and age.Unfortunately sometimes,but still.

[Tatiana Maria]

I don't think an announcement from a brother of his sister's death is crazy, even if they were apparently estranged.

I am not sure why the claim to Kingdom of Spain is described as more crazy/hanky-panky than the claim to the Duchy of Parma. The Kingdom of Spain at least continues to exist as a country and as a kingdom, whereas Parma has ceased to be an independent country and ceased to be a monarchy.

Interesting that whereas María Teresa's funeral took place in Parma, the coats of arms in the cathedral were mostly those of the Kingdom of Spain.

[Marengo]

The man kidnapped his own father out of the hospital, fired shots at his brother and sister-in-law and he cheated his siblings out of their mothers inheritance. He has hidden the fugetive murderers of Aniano Gimenez Santo and mingled with members of the Argentinian death squads. And in addition he is chosing to spend his time with extremists, fascists and anti-semites. He joined a splinter group that seceded from the extreme-right Action Française as the AF was not extreme enough!

He could have shown kidness to his sister in life but the only thing he has shown again and again to his family is vile hatred. The reason one presumes he issues these declarations - as he even did at the death of his own brother- is because he wants to make people believe that he and not his nephew is the head of the family.

If he wants to pay his respects to his sister he could attend her funeral mass. Or he could make up with the only other of the younger sisters that is still alive; Pss Marie des Neiges and with his brothers children. Instead he prefers to issue statements from his chateau - last restaured with Pss Irene's money- and ignoring nearly all commandmends of his religion while presenting himself as being more pious than the pope.

In the mean time - his late sister - who was not religious enough in the eyes of Sixtus- has spent her life helping others.

As for the south american hanky panky: I assume lucien did not refer to political activities, but things of a more private and -for the prince- embarrasing nature, especially considering his reactionary public persona.

[Tosca]

The Ballarino's jewelry of Cavour (Turin) has been chosen for the creation of the seal of the Royal House.


https://www.facebook.com/Gioielleria...90647890948413

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

Your comparison is not right . The Duke of Parma is living in the Netherlands and why not in Parma you says he is not totally unknown.

I searched for squares, buildings, streets name for the Bourbons in Parma. The only Borbone I couldfind is a... brand of coffee..., whilst there is a school a hospital and a boulevard bearing the name of Maria Luigia and a street named for the Farneses.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Tosca

I searched for squares, buildings, streets name for the Bourbons in Parma. The only Borbone I couldfind is a... brand of coffee..., whilst there is a school a hospital and a boulevard bearing the name of Maria Luigia and a street named for the Farneses.

Seems pretty normal to me. Italy is a republic and the Borbones have long been gone and ruled a limited period as heirs to the Farneses.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

I don't think an announcement from a brother of his sister's death is crazy, even if they were apparently estranged.

I am not sure why the claim to Kingdom of Spain is described as more crazy/hanky-panky than the claim to the Duchy of Parma. The Kingdom of Spain at least continues to exist as a country and as a kingdom, whereas Parma has ceased to be an independent country and ceased to be a monarchy.

Interesting that whereas María Teresa's funeral took place in Parma, the coats of arms in the cathedral were mostly those of the Kingdom of Spain.

The Bourbon-Parmas have no claim on the Duchies of Parma and Piacenza. The titles came into the family by the union of Elisabetta Farnese, Duchess of Parma and Felipe V de Borbón, King of Spain (born Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou).

This Spanish King's son Felipe de Borbón, Infante de España, married the French King's daughter Élisabeth de Bourbon, Fille de France. The current Duke of Parma is a direct descendant of this double Bourbon union. No one disputes his position.

The claim on the Spanish throne is ridiculous because to the left and to the right the most senior legitime successor to the throne of Spain is Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón, the father of the present King.

The last direct heir of Infante Carlos (the brother of King Ferdinand VII who was bypassed by his niece, the start of the conflict) died in 1936, without issue, and with this Carlism should be "solved" as since then the line of King Alfonso XIII (grandfather of Don Juan Carlos) became the most senior Spanish Borbón line in the male lineage.

That highly intelligent people as Carlos Hugo, Carlos Javier and Jaime believe this while all academiclally schooled is a mystery to me.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

The Bourbon-Parmas have no claim on the Duchies of Parma and Piacenza. The titles came into the family by the union of Elisabetta Farnese, Duchess of Parma and Felipe V de Borbón, King of Spain (born Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou).

This Spanish King's son Felipe de Borbón, Infante de España, married the French King's daughter Élisabeth de Bourbon, Fille de France. The current Duke of Parma is a direct descendant of this double Bourbon union. No one disputes his position.

The claim on the Spanish throne is ridiculous because to the left and to the right the most senior legitime successor to the throne of Spain is Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón, the father of the present King.

The last direct heir of Infante Carlos (the brother of King Ferdinand VII who was bypassed by his niece, the start of the conflict) died in 1936, without issue, and with this Carlism should be "solved" as since then the line of King Alfonso XIII (grandfather of Don Juan Carlos) became the most senior Spanish Borbón line in the male lineage.

That highly intelligent people as Carlos Hugo, Carlos Javier and Jaime believe this while all academiclally schooled is a mystery to me.

Wasn't sure about the exact lineage so looked it up and figured others might be interested as well.

Carlos IV - Fernando VII - 4 infanta's (among which Isabella II) - so continued in female line

Carlos IV - Carlos María Isidro Benito, Count of Molina (younger brother of Fernando VII; first Carlist claimant) - 3 sons:
* Carlos Luis, Count of Montemolín (second Carlist claimant; no children)
*Juan Carlos María Isidro, Count of Montizón (third Carlist claimant; 2 legitimate sons; 1 illegitimate son:
** Carlos, Duke of Madrid (fourth Carlist claimant); one son: Jaime, duke of Madrid (fifth Carlist claimant; no children)
** Alfonso, Duke of San Jaime (sixth Carlist claimant; died in 1936)
** John Montfort (with male-line living descendants!)
* Fernando

Carlos IV - Francisco de Paula (youngest son) - 5 legitimate sons; 1 illegitimate son:
* Francisco (died aged 1)
* Francisco, Duke of Cadiz: husband of Isabella II --> ancestor of the current king of Spain (most senior existing male-line from Carlos IV) via Alfonso XII - Alfonso XIII - 6 sons; among which Juan (father of Juan Carlos) was the 5th. Most senior living male-line descendant is Luis Alfonso, Duke of Anjou (but his grandfather renounced his rights to the throne), grandson of Jaime, duke of Segovia (2nd son).

[Duc_et_Pair]

Juan de Borbón, Conde Montizón, had an extramarital relationship with Ellen Sarah Carter, with whom he got two children: Helen Montfort and John Monfort

The descendants of John Montfort are more senior than Alfonso de Borbón ("Duque de Anjou") and Juan Carlos de Borbón but of course they play no role in the succession to the thrones of France or Spain.

The Carlist claim is utterly ridiculous since the childless death of Alfonso de Borbón, Duque de San Jaime, the half-brother of Helen Montfort and John Montfort.

Don Carlos de Borbón y Borbón-Parma, Infante de España, Conde de Molina (1788-1885), the bypassed heir to his elder brother King Ferdinand VII
|
Son of this bypassed Infante Don Carlos:
Don Juan de Borbón y Braganza, Conde de Montizón (1822-1867)
|
Grandson of this bypassed Infante Don Carlos
Don Alfonso de Borbón y Austria-Este, Duque de San Jaime (1849-1936)
|
The legitime Carlist line has become extinct in 1936. The line of King Alfonso XIII became the most senior line (today Don King Felipe).

The Bourbon-Parma line is only the most senior when King Alfonso XIII is not recognized and that is the quite discutable base of today's "Carlist" claim, which has nothing to do with real Carlism as descendant to the bypassed Don Carlos, Infante of Spain (brother of King Ferdinand VII), which they are not.

I would like to see a sharp interviewer firing questions to Prince Carlos Javier or his brother Prince Jaime, to destroy this Carlist fata morgana. They are scions of the grandest royal dynasties of Europe. Be proud on being Duke of Parma and stop the ridiculous claim on the Spanish throne.

[Tosca]

The local newspaper "Gazzetta di Parma" announcing the death of Princess Cecilia Maria Antoinette de Bourbon-Parma few days apart her sister's demise:

https://www.gazzettadiparma.it/gweb/...parma-6385455/

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

The Bourbon-Parmas have no claim on the Duchies of Parma and Piacenza. The titles came into the family by the union of Elisabetta Farnese, Duchess of Parma and Felipe V de Borbón, King of Spain (born Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou).

This Spanish King's son Felipe de Borbón, Infante de España, married the French King's daughter Élisabeth de Bourbon, Fille de France. The current Duke of Parma is a direct descendant of this double Bourbon union. No one disputes his position.

Do you mean to say that they do not claim the defunct thrones of the duchies, only the (equally defunct) ducal title?

Originally Posted by Somebody

Most senior living male-line descendant is Luis Alfonso, Duke of Anjou (but his grandfather renounced his rights to the throne), grandson of Jaime, duke of Segovia (2nd son).

And he descends from an unequal marriage. Or do you believe the renunciation is more important than the unequal marriage as you only mention the former?