HRH Duke Carlos Javier (1970- ) and the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma: August 2010-

[maria-olivia]

Carlos , Spain and Parma are Folklore !

[iceflower]

.

Carlos, Annemarie and their three adorable children posed for some Christmas photos in Den Haag:


** ppe gallery **

[HereditaryPrincess]

Those are beautiful photos of the family, thank you for sharing iceflower. It's interesting because the children all resemble one of their AAA cousins: Luisa resembles Princess Alexia, Cecilia Princess Ariane and Carlos Princess Amalia. There are some very dominant genes in the DRF.
Little Carlos, on another note, has grown up so much! He's a very handsome little boy.

[eya]

May we have a new Prince on Monday
"Hugo Klynstra he demands the surname and thus the noble titles and further heir claims of his father Carlos.
The Council of State will consider the question on Monday and there is a good chance that the answer will be affirmative. Hugo Klynstra won an earlier lawsuit from his father, prince Carlos - eldest son of princess Irene -, and is now expected to call his Royal Highness prince Carlos Hugo Roderik Sybren de Bourbon de Parma"

https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland...-oud~a4556777/

[Lee-Z]

Well... i can't say it's unexpected...
But the fact that the duke's second son is also called Carlos leads me to assume (imo ofcourse) that he considers his second son his *first* son and heir.

[Duc_et_Pair]

It remains unclear what exactly happened back in time.

The Volkskrant:
"Carlos en Gitte zijn weliswaar jeugdvrienden, maar ze zijn niet getrouwd en wonen niet samen. De baby blijkt een wens van Gitte. De geboorte wordt stilgehouden, maar lekt na bijna twee maanden uit via De Telegraaf. Carlos laat in een verklaring weten dat het 'een eigen, zelfstandige beslissing van Brigitte was om moeder te worden', een beslissing die hij zei 'volledig' te respecteren. Hij betwist niet dat hij de vader is, maar erkent het kind niet. Hij verklaarde ook dat het 'uitgesloten' was dat er 'een familierechtelijke betrekking' tussen hem en het kind zou komen."

Translation:
"Carlos and Gitte are indeed childhood friends, but they are not married and do not live together. The baby turns out to be a wish of Gitte. The birth is kept private, but after almost two months the news leaked via De Telegraaf. Carlos states in a statement that it was 'Brigitte's own independent decision to become a mother', a decision he said to 'fully' respect. He does not dispute that he is the father, but does not recognize the child. He also stated that it was 'excluded' that there would be 'a family relationship' between him and the child."

And De Volkskrant again:
"Op verzoek van de moeder legt de rechtbank het vaderschap na twee jaar vast. Gitte wil niet dat de vader zich nog met de opvoeding bemoeit, waarover Carlos later zegt dit te hebben betreurd. Hij draagt wel financieel bij."

Translation:
"At the request of the mother, the Court of Justice establishes paternity after two years. Gitte does not want the father to interfere with the upbringing, which Carlos later says he regretted. He does contribute financially."

In 2015 the Minister of Justice agreed with the request of Carlos Klynstra to be known with his father's surnames and title.

De Volkskrant again:
"Carlos dient daarop een bezwaarschrift in. Aan The Post Online laat hij eind 2015 weten: 'Ik heb vernomen dat Hugo Klynstra een dergelijk verzoek heeft ingediend. Dat verzoek is op mijn initiatief nu onderwerp van een procedure. Het gaat om een persoonlijke aangelegenheid met een voor mij verdrietige achtergrond."

Translation:
"Carlos submits a notice of objection. At The Post Online, he announced at the end of 2015: "I have been informed that Hugo Klynstra has submitted such a request. That request is now the subject of a procedure on my initiative. It is a personal affair with a -for me- sad background. "

De Volkskrant again:
"Carlos' dynastieke bezwaar dat de naamswijziging niet past binnen de regels van het Huis Bourbon-Parma, vindt de rechter een particuliere aangelegenheid die niet onder Nederlands recht valt."

Translation:
"Carlos' dynastic objection that the name change does not fit within the rules of the House of Bourbon-Parma, is seen by the Judge as a particulier case without jurisdiction under Dutch law".

Brigitte ("Gitte") Klynstra, a stepdaughter of the Count van Rechteren-Limpurg, died in 2010 at the age of 51. I am intrugued by the sentences "the baby turns out to be a wish of Gitte" and "it was Brigitte's own independent decision to become a mother". The two agreed not to have any forrmal relationship, Brigitte did not want any involvement of the father with Hugo (but Carlos had to pay anyway). The Duke regretted that he was excluded from his son. All by all a sad history with dynastic complications, as the Duke himself of course is the head of the House and applied the rules as he would have done to another dynasts with extra-marital children.

It is for 99% sure that Hugo will receive the title and surname prins de Bourbon de Parme which is part of the Dutch nobility and on which the Dutch legislation concerning names and titulature applies. Most likely the Duke only wanted to make clear he has done his "duty" as Head of the House , that he has done "his dynastic obligations", while knowing on beforehand that Hugo will "win" the case anyway.

[JR76]

In a way what we see here is the birth of a new House of Bourbon-Parma and a new branch on the old family tree of The Capetingians. Is there any other "recognised" illegitimate noble houses of that descent besides The Braganzas and the Bourbon-Busset?

[Somebody]

I believe the Duke has said as much. He objects in all possible ways to do whatever he can as head of the house to prevent it from happening but, according to the new Dutch law on nobility, children born after August 1, 1994 may apply for their noble title and become a noble because of it (and if the father is not willing may apply for it on or after their 18th birthday) as Hugo did.

He doesn't have a relationship with his father as far as is known but apparently is interested in his title. I don't think he would have asked to be granted his father's surname had he not been a prince.

However, for dynastic reasons within the house prince Carlos is the dynast and Hugo is considered irrelevant.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by JR76

In a way what we see here is the birth of a new House of Bourbon-Parma and a new branch on the old family tree of The Capetingians. Is there any other "recognised" illegitimate noble houses of that descent besides The Braganzas and the Bourbon-Busset?

There is not really a new tree. The young man and his descendants will be prins (prinses) de Bourbon de Parme in the Dutch nobility. For the House de Bourbon de Parme he is no "dynast" for the headship. Maybe Hugo will claim it. Maybe he will not. Apparently the young man, which was shielded away from the Duke by his mother, wants to be known with his father's surname.

This happens frequently, that children from broken families request a name change when they reach the age of consent. This time it is a "special" child so to say and then it comes in the news.

In the newspaper AD is written that the young man grew up on the estate next to that of his step-grandfather, Adolf graaf van Rechteren-Limpurg. The newspaper describes that Hugo was a popular young man but the villagers remember that his mother, Brigitte, was extremely careful that there were no cameras. So Hugo was always very shielded away.

Sadly Enghuizen Castle was heavily damaged by (allied) bombings in Wirld War II.

Enghuizen in 1891

Enghuizen after the bombings in WWII

Since then the family still owns the estate but lives in the former Orangerie and other mansions (former stables, former coach-house, former farmhouses) on the estate. The castle was never rebuilt.

[Somebody]

I don't know many people requesting a name change and especially not one in which they request the name of someone they are not nor had in the past a close relationship with. More common examples are children requesting their stepfather's surname instead if that was the father figure in their lives or of their mothers surname if they are carrying the surname of a father they never or hardly had a relationship with... Hugo, however, is going in the opposite direction.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

It remains unclear what exactly happened back in time.

The Volkskrant:
"Carlos en Gitte zijn weliswaar jeugdvrienden, maar ze zijn niet getrouwd en wonen niet samen. De baby blijkt een wens van Gitte. De geboorte wordt stilgehouden, maar lekt na bijna twee maanden uit via De Telegraaf. Carlos laat in een verklaring weten dat het 'een eigen, zelfstandige beslissing van Brigitte was om moeder te worden', een beslissing die hij zei 'volledig' te respecteren. Hij betwist niet dat hij de vader is, maar erkent het kind niet. Hij verklaarde ook dat het 'uitgesloten' was dat er 'een familierechtelijke betrekking' tussen hem en het kind zou komen."

Translation:
"Carlos and Gitte are indeed childhood friends, but they are not married and do not live together. The baby turns out to be a wish of Gitte. The birth is kept private, but after almost two months the news leaked via De Telegraaf. Carlos states in a statement that it was 'Brigitte's own independent decision to become a mother', a decision he said to 'fully' respect. He does not dispute that he is the father, but does not recognize the child. He also stated that it was 'excluded' that there would be 'a family relationship' between him and the child."

And De Volkskrant again:
"Op verzoek van de moeder legt de rechtbank het vaderschap na twee jaar vast. Gitte wil niet dat de vader zich nog met de opvoeding bemoeit, waarover Carlos later zegt dit te hebben betreurd. Hij draagt wel financieel bij."

Translation:
"At the request of the mother, the Court of Justice establishes paternity after two years. Gitte does not want the father to interfere with the upbringing, which Carlos later says he regretted. He does contribute financially."

In 2015 the Minister of Justice agreed with the request of Carlos Klynstra to be known with his father's surnames and title.

De Volkskrant again:
"Carlos dient daarop een bezwaarschrift in. Aan The Post Online laat hij eind 2015 weten: 'Ik heb vernomen dat Hugo Klynstra een dergelijk verzoek heeft ingediend. Dat verzoek is op mijn initiatief nu onderwerp van een procedure. Het gaat om een persoonlijke aangelegenheid met een voor mij verdrietige achtergrond."

Translation:
"Carlos submits a notice of objection. At The Post Online, he announced at the end of 2015: "I have been informed that Hugo Klynstra has submitted such a request. That request is now the subject of a procedure on my initiative. It is a personal affair with a -for me- sad background. "

De Volkskrant again:
"Carlos' dynastieke bezwaar dat de naamswijziging niet past binnen de regels van het Huis Bourbon-Parma, vindt de rechter een particuliere aangelegenheid die niet onder Nederlands recht valt."

Translation:
"Carlos' dynastic objection that the name change does not fit within the rules of the House of Bourbon-Parma, is seen by the Judge as a particulier case without jurisdiction under Dutch law".

Brigitte ("Gitte") Klynstra, a stepdaughter of the Count van Rechteren-Limpurg, died in 2010 at the age of 51. I am intrugued by the sentences "the baby turns out to be a wish of Gitte" and "it was Brigitte's own independent decision to become a mother". The two agreed not to have any forrmal relationship, Brigitte did not want any involvement of the father with Hugo (but Carlos had to pay anyway). The Duke regretted that he was excluded from his son. All by all a sad history with dynastic complications, as the Duke himself of course is the head of the House and applied the rules as he would have done to another dynasts with extra-marital children.

It is for 99% sure that Hugo will receive the title and surname prins de Bourbon de Parme which is part of the Dutch nobility and on which the Dutch legislation concerning names and titulature applies. Most likely the Duke only wanted to make clear he has done his "duty" as Head of the House , that he has done "his dynastic obligations", while knowing on beforehand that Hugo will "win" the case anyway.

This is incorrect. De Volkskrant has rectified this:
Nederland krijgt misschien wel een nieuwe prins - en hij is al 21 jaar oud (at the end of the article).

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by Somebody

I don't know many people requesting a name change and especially not one in which they request the name of someone they are not nor had in the past a close relationship with. More common examples are children requesting their stepfather's surname instead if that was the father figure in their lives or of their mothers surname if they are carrying the surname of a father they never or hardly had a relationship with... Hugo, however, is going in the opposite direction.

It is indeed an odd move. The NOS is speculating that the reason is that he will get a prestigious name and doors will open to him.

[HereditaryPrincess]

Originally Posted by Marengo

It is indeed an odd move. The NOS is speculating that the reason is that he will get a prestigious name and doors will open to him.

I agree, it does seem odd but at the same time I’m not surprised because I remember reading previous debates about the issue of Hugo Klynstra and a potential princely title.

I also agree with your reasoning for the title. It seems strange that he’s only been made a Prince now.

[Skippy]

I think it's more of a principal thing for him. The lineage is also his, leaving the relationship -in whatever form- between his parents out of the arena, so he goes after his birth right.

In about six weeks we'll know how things are going to be in the future where his name and title are concerned.

[Katrianna]

It was mentioned that Gitte died in 2010 and at the Nobiliana Forum it has been written that this info is incorrect. I've included the link and the info pertaining to her not dying starts at Netty's post this past Sat. at 3 am. It's a long page so the post is past the half way point.





http://www.nobiliana.de/index.php?/t...comment-181198

[Katrianna]

Sorry, the link doesn't work. Netty wrote that she was contacted by another Nobiliana member that she had seen Gitte many times since 2010 and is another Royal photographer. Another member confirmed she was, indeed alive and the news first reported was incorrect.

[eya]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal...legitimate-son

Prince Carlo's son wins legal fight against family for title

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by eya

https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal...legitimate-son

Prince Carlo's son wins legal fight against family for title

Prince Carlos' son has not won the legal fight yet. The Raad van State (Council of State) still has to give a verdict on the appeal by the Duke, which will last a couple of weeks.

[rominet09]

I'd love to see a pic of the son to see if he looks like his father

[Cory]

To be recognized as a member of the Dutch nobility does not imply dynastic rights in the House of Bourbon-Parma.