Duke Carlos Javier and the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma 1: August 2010- 2022


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It's interesting that the little princesses have been given new titles. It was nice that Princess Luisa visited the new town of her title, I wonder if Cecilia will visited Bercato at some point too.
Luisa and Cecilia are beautiful little girls. They also bear quite a strong resemblance to their Dutch AAA cousins.

Nice to see Jaime and Viktoria there too.
 
We've really gotten some lovely Parma family photos this weekend ,I've just noticed that Prince Jaime , Count of Bardi and Princess Viktoria were there too.
 
Great family photos. The kids are beautiful :flowers:

Nice to see Jamie and his wife made the trip up from Rome for the occasion.
 
We've seen their sisters at these occasions quite frequently as well. Not surprised that Carolina (abd Albert) didn't come all the way from Hong Kong, but Margarita and Tjalling could have joint as well... Maybe next year again?
 
Princess Margarita was rather acid about these family meetings and photo shoots with her aunts when she was under influence of her former husband. During an interview that she gave at the time she said that they were all smiles for the camera but that there was a lot of disagreement between her father and his siblings.

Of course we are more than a decade further now, and Margarita moved on & was welcomed back in the family. But I am not sure how comfortable she is among her fathers relatives. And of course we do not know if wounds between her and her elder brother have healed. In one of the interviews she accused him of sexually molesting her during her childhood.

In any case, she may prefer to stay home in Wassenaar. The girls are at an age that they probably have things to go to during the weekend: field hockey or horse riding perhaps.
 
Princess Margarita was rather acid about these family meetings and photo shoots with her aunts when she was under influence of her former husband. During an interview that she gave at the time she said that they were all smiles for the camera but that there was a lot of disagreement between her father and his siblings.

Of course we are more than a decade further now, and Margarita moved on & was welcomed back in the family. But I am not sure how comfortable she is among her fathers relatives. And of course we do not know if wounds between her and her elder brother have healed. In one of the interviews she accused him of sexually molesting her during her childhood.

In any case, she may prefer to stay home in Wassenaar. The girls are at an age that they probably have things to go to during the weekend: field hockey or horse riding perhaps.

Given that Margarita has been attending these meetings quite regularly (Margarita and Carolina only skipped 2015) since Carlos took over as Duke of Parma, I don't think she still harbours these feelings. She also said really bad things about her aunt Queen Beatrix and nowadays happily invites her to her horse events (which she could easily not do if she didn't want to be in her presence, but instead they seem to have a good time together). Furthermore, she is the godmother of princess Cecilia, so, if she really had problems with her brother she shouldn't have accepted that honour. And being Cecilia's godmother would be all the more reason to be in Parma this weekend to share this special moment with her.

So, yes, there are lots of other activities that might be going on why Margarita decided not to join her brothers this time (her daughters are not expected as they aren't princesses of Bourbon-Parma; they only attended last year because of the baptism of their cousin), but I don't think that hard feelings to either her brother or to the one and only aunt who was present (Maria de las Nieves) is one of them.

(Getting a little frustrated as everything I typed was lost because I went to a different tab for a few seconds; not the first time it happens; would be helpful if it automatically saved)
 
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So much love and proudness for the younger children! The girls seemed to have a lot of fun with the ceremony. For my eyes, Luisa is her fathers look-a-like and Cecilia comes after her mom.
 
HRH Duke Carlos Javier (1970- ) and the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma: August 2010-

I find it weird that non-reigning families still give titles to family members.
It feels like claiming something that isn't theirs anymore.
 
"King" Carlos Javier published a statement on the website of the Carlists, in which he urges for a dialogue and non-violent solutions to solve the problems in Catalunya. He claims that he was criticized by Carlists for not speaking out earlier. He also expressed his solidarity with those who had suffered from violence.

LEGITIMISTA DIGITAL: el Carlismo contra la Globalización: COMUNICADO DE S.M. DON CARLOS JAVIER I DE BORBÓN PARMA SOBRE LA CRISIS POLÍTICA EN CATALUNYA Y EN EL RESTO DE LAS ESPAÑAS
 
He consistenly speaks about 'las Españas' and considers the Spaniards to consist of different nationalities - apparently based in the 'old kingdoms'. Therefore, he suggests federalism as the solution as a way to do justice to the various people within 'the Spains'. Furthermore, he calls for dialogue before it is too late (because of how it will shape the hearts of future generations).

He asks the Carlists, independent of their stance on the issue (so he acknowledges there might be supporters of both stances among them) to mediate between parties and not look for confrontation or polarisation. And all to think of 'we' not 'they'.

Interesting contribution (not that it will be taken seriously), and it is clear that he expects his message to be read by non-carkists as well, otherwise there would not have been a need for the personal introduction in the first paragraph.

Very different also from Felipe's message (and of course they are in very different positions). Carlos seems Harmony as the highest good and therefore violent repression is not acceptable to him, while Felipe elevates the law in order to justify going against his own people.
 
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:previous: Those are beautiful photos of the family, thank you for sharing iceflower. It's interesting because the children all resemble one of their AAA cousins: Luisa resembles Princess Alexia, Cecilia Princess Ariane and Carlos Princess Amalia. There are some very dominant genes in the DRF.
Little Carlos, on another note, has grown up so much! He's a very handsome little boy.
 
May we have a new Prince on Monday
"Hugo Klynstra he demands the surname and thus the noble titles and further heir claims of his father Carlos.
The Council of State will consider the question on Monday and there is a good chance that the answer will be affirmative. Hugo Klynstra won an earlier lawsuit from his father, prince Carlos - eldest son of princess Irene -, and is now expected to call his Royal Highness prince Carlos Hugo Roderik Sybren de Bourbon de Parma"

https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenlan...euwe-prins-en-hij-is-al-21-jaar-oud~a4556777/
 
Well... i can't say it's unexpected...
But the fact that the duke's second son is also called Carlos leads me to assume (imo ofcourse) that he considers his second son his *first* son and heir.
 
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It remains unclear what exactly happened back in time.

The Volkskrant:
"Carlos en Gitte zijn weliswaar jeugdvrienden, maar ze zijn niet getrouwd en wonen niet samen. De baby blijkt een wens van Gitte. De geboorte wordt stilgehouden, maar lekt na bijna twee maanden uit via De Telegraaf. Carlos laat in een verklaring weten dat het 'een eigen, zelfstandige beslissing van Brigitte was om moeder te worden', een beslissing die hij zei 'volledig' te respecteren. Hij betwist niet dat hij de vader is, maar erkent het kind niet. Hij verklaarde ook dat het 'uitgesloten' was dat er 'een familierechtelijke betrekking' tussen hem en het kind zou komen."


Translation:
"Carlos and Gitte are indeed childhood friends, but they are not married and do not live together. The baby turns out to be a wish of Gitte. The birth is kept private, but after almost two months the news leaked via De Telegraaf. Carlos states in a statement that it was 'Brigitte's own independent decision to become a mother', a decision he said to 'fully' respect. He does not dispute that he is the father, but does not recognize the child. He also stated that it was 'excluded' that there would be 'a family relationship' between him and the child."


And De Volkskrant again:
"Op verzoek van de moeder legt de rechtbank het vaderschap na twee jaar vast. Gitte wil niet dat de vader zich nog met de opvoeding bemoeit, waarover Carlos later zegt dit te hebben betreurd. Hij draagt wel financieel bij."

Translation:
"At the request of the mother, the Court of Justice establishes paternity after two years. Gitte does not want the father to interfere with the upbringing, which Carlos later says he regretted. He does contribute financially."


In 2015 the Minister of Justice agreed with the request of Carlos Klynstra to be known with his father's surnames and title.

De Volkskrant again:
"
Carlos dient daarop een bezwaarschrift in. Aan The Post Online laat hij eind 2015 weten: 'Ik heb vernomen dat Hugo Klynstra een dergelijk verzoek heeft ingediend. Dat verzoek is op mijn initiatief nu onderwerp van een procedure. Het gaat om een persoonlijke aangelegenheid met een voor mij verdrietige achtergrond."

Translation:
"Carlos submits a notice of objection. At The Post Online, he announced at the end of 2015: "I have been informed that Hugo Klynstra has submitted such a request. That request is now the subject of a procedure on my initiative. It is a personal affair with a -for me- sad background. "

De Volkskrant again:
"Carlos' dynastieke bezwaar dat de naamswijziging niet past binnen de regels van het Huis Bourbon-Parma, vindt de rechter een particuliere aangelegenheid die niet onder Nederlands recht valt."

Translation:
"Carlos' dynastic objection that the name change does not fit within the rules of the House of Bourbon-Parma, is seen by the Judge as a particulier case without jurisdiction under Dutch law".

Brigitte ("Gitte") Klynstra, a stepdaughter of the Count van Rechteren-Limpurg, died in 2010 at the age of 51. I am intrugued by the sentences "the baby turns out to be a wish of Gitte" and "it was Brigitte's own independent decision to become a mother". The two agreed not to have any forrmal relationship, Brigitte did not want any involvement of the father with Hugo (but Carlos had to pay anyway). The Duke regretted that he was excluded from his son. All by all a sad history with dynastic complications, as the Duke himself of course is the head of the House and applied the rules as he would have done to another dynasts with extra-marital children.

It is for 99% sure that Hugo will receive the title and surname prins de Bourbon de Parme which is part of the Dutch nobility and on which the Dutch legislation concerning names and titulature applies. Most likely the Duke only wanted to make clear he has done his "duty" as Head of the House , that he has done "his dynastic obligations", while knowing on beforehand that Hugo will "win" the case anyway.
 
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In a way what we see here is the birth of a new House of Bourbon-Parma and a new branch on the old family tree of The Capetingians. Is there any other "recognised" illegitimate noble houses of that descent besides The Braganzas and the Bourbon-Busset?
 
I believe the Duke has said as much. He objects in all possible ways to do whatever he can as head of the house to prevent it from happening but, according to the new Dutch law on nobility, children born after August 1, 1994 may apply for their noble title and become a noble because of it (and if the father is not willing may apply for it on or after their 18th birthday) as Hugo did.

He doesn't have a relationship with his father as far as is known but apparently is interested in his title. I don't think he would have asked to be granted his father's surname had he not been a prince.

However, for dynastic reasons within the house prince Carlos is the dynast and Hugo is considered irrelevant.
 
In a way what we see here is the birth of a new House of Bourbon-Parma and a new branch on the old family tree of The Capetingians. Is there any other "recognised" illegitimate noble houses of that descent besides The Braganzas and the Bourbon-Busset?

There is not really a new tree. The young man and his descendants will be prins (prinses) de Bourbon de Parme in the Dutch nobility. For the House de Bourbon de Parme he is no "dynast" for the headship. Maybe Hugo will claim it. Maybe he will not. Apparently the young man, which was shielded away from the Duke by his mother, wants to be known with his father's surname.

This happens frequently, that children from broken families request a name change when they reach the age of consent. This time it is a "special" child so to say and then it comes in the news.

In the newspaper AD is written that the young man grew up on the estate next to that of his step-grandfather, Adolf graaf van Rechteren-Limpurg. The newspaper describes that Hugo was a popular young man but the villagers remember that his mother, Brigitte, was extremely careful that there were no cameras. So Hugo was always very shielded away.

Sadly Enghuizen Castle was heavily damaged by (allied) bombings in Wirld War II.

Enghuizen in 1891

Enghuizen after the bombings in WWII

Since then the family still owns the estate but lives in the former Orangerie and other mansions (former stables, former coach-house, former farmhouses) on the estate. The castle was never rebuilt.
 
I don't know many people requesting a name change and especially not one in which they request the name of someone they are not nor had in the past a close relationship with. More common examples are children requesting their stepfather's surname instead if that was the father figure in their lives or of their mothers surname if they are carrying the surname of a father they never or hardly had a relationship with... Hugo, however, is going in the opposite direction.
 
It remains unclear what exactly happened back in time.

The Volkskrant:
"Carlos en Gitte zijn weliswaar jeugdvrienden, maar ze zijn niet getrouwd en wonen niet samen. De baby blijkt een wens van Gitte. De geboorte wordt stilgehouden, maar lekt na bijna twee maanden uit via De Telegraaf. Carlos laat in een verklaring weten dat het 'een eigen, zelfstandige beslissing van Brigitte was om moeder te worden', een beslissing die hij zei 'volledig' te respecteren. Hij betwist niet dat hij de vader is, maar erkent het kind niet. Hij verklaarde ook dat het 'uitgesloten' was dat er 'een familierechtelijke betrekking' tussen hem en het kind zou komen."


Translation:
"Carlos and Gitte are indeed childhood friends, but they are not married and do not live together. The baby turns out to be a wish of Gitte. The birth is kept private, but after almost two months the news leaked via De Telegraaf. Carlos states in a statement that it was 'Brigitte's own independent decision to become a mother', a decision he said to 'fully' respect. He does not dispute that he is the father, but does not recognize the child. He also stated that it was 'excluded' that there would be 'a family relationship' between him and the child."


And De Volkskrant again:
"Op verzoek van de moeder legt de rechtbank het vaderschap na twee jaar vast. Gitte wil niet dat de vader zich nog met de opvoeding bemoeit, waarover Carlos later zegt dit te hebben betreurd. Hij draagt wel financieel bij."

Translation:
"At the request of the mother, the Court of Justice establishes paternity after two years. Gitte does not want the father to interfere with the upbringing, which Carlos later says he regretted. He does contribute financially."


In 2015 the Minister of Justice agreed with the request of Carlos Klynstra to be known with his father's surnames and title.

De Volkskrant again:
"
Carlos dient daarop een bezwaarschrift in. Aan The Post Online laat hij eind 2015 weten: 'Ik heb vernomen dat Hugo Klynstra een dergelijk verzoek heeft ingediend. Dat verzoek is op mijn initiatief nu onderwerp van een procedure. Het gaat om een persoonlijke aangelegenheid met een voor mij verdrietige achtergrond."

Translation:
"Carlos submits a notice of objection. At The Post Online, he announced at the end of 2015: "I have been informed that Hugo Klynstra has submitted such a request. That request is now the subject of a procedure on my initiative. It is a personal affair with a -for me- sad background. "

De Volkskrant again:
"Carlos' dynastieke bezwaar dat de naamswijziging niet past binnen de regels van het Huis Bourbon-Parma, vindt de rechter een particuliere aangelegenheid die niet onder Nederlands recht valt."

Translation:
"Carlos' dynastic objection that the name change does not fit within the rules of the House of Bourbon-Parma, is seen by the Judge as a particulier case without jurisdiction under Dutch law".

Brigitte ("Gitte") Klynstra, a stepdaughter of the Count van Rechteren-Limpurg, died in 2010 at the age of 51. I am intrugued by the sentences "the baby turns out to be a wish of Gitte" and "it was Brigitte's own independent decision to become a mother". The two agreed not to have any forrmal relationship, Brigitte did not want any involvement of the father with Hugo (but Carlos had to pay anyway). The Duke regretted that he was excluded from his son. All by all a sad history with dynastic complications, as the Duke himself of course is the head of the House and applied the rules as he would have done to another dynasts with extra-marital children.

It is for 99% sure that Hugo will receive the title and surname prins de Bourbon de Parme which is part of the Dutch nobility and on which the Dutch legislation concerning names and titulature applies. Most likely the Duke only wanted to make clear he has done his "duty" as Head of the House , that he has done "his dynastic obligations", while knowing on beforehand that Hugo will "win" the case anyway.

This is incorrect. De Volkskrant has rectified this:
Nederland krijgt misschien wel een nieuwe prins - en hij is al 21 jaar oud (at the end of the article).
 
I don't know many people requesting a name change and especially not one in which they request the name of someone they are not nor had in the past a close relationship with. More common examples are children requesting their stepfather's surname instead if that was the father figure in their lives or of their mothers surname if they are carrying the surname of a father they never or hardly had a relationship with... Hugo, however, is going in the opposite direction.

It is indeed an odd move. The NOS is speculating that the reason is that he will get a prestigious name and doors will open to him.
 
It is indeed an odd move. The NOS is speculating that the reason is that he will get a prestigious name and doors will open to him.



I agree, it does seem odd but at the same time I’m not surprised because I remember reading previous debates about the issue of Hugo Klynstra and a potential princely title.

I also agree with your reasoning for the title. It seems strange that he’s only been made a Prince now.
 
I think it's more of a principal thing for him. The lineage is also his, leaving the relationship -in whatever form- between his parents out of the arena, so he goes after his birth right.

In about six weeks we'll know how things are going to be in the future where his name and title are concerned.
 
Sorry, the link doesn't work. Netty wrote that she was contacted by another Nobiliana member that she had seen Gitte many times since 2010 and is another Royal photographer. Another member confirmed she was, indeed alive and the news first reported was incorrect.
 
I'd love to see a pic of the son to see if he looks like his father
 
To be recognized as a member of the Dutch nobility does not imply dynastic rights in the House of Bourbon-Parma.
 
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