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  #401  
Old 06-02-2021, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Addapalla View Post
The block to Vittoria's succession is that there is no Savoy monarchy under which the rules of the monarchy can be changed for her to become Head of House.
Likewise, there is no Savoy monarchy under which the rules of the monarchy can stipulate that Amedeo, Aimone and Umberto should succeed as Head of House. Mbruno explained in the thread on succession and restoration that the senior Savoy line recognizes the reality that there is currently no monarchy, and they are claimants only to the headship of the house, not headship of the nonexistent monarchy. (I asked in that thread whether the same is true for the Savoy-Aostas.)
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  #402  
Old 06-02-2021, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
They are very distant branches of the family though. Aren't Aimone and Emanuele Filiberto fourth cousins ?
Genealogically, over the last 70 years or so Europe's Gotha families have generally become more “concentrated,” but the Habsburgs, Liechtensteins, Bourbons, Wittelsbachs, Hohenzollerns and others still have separate flourishing fully-dynastic lines where family members are less closely related than 4th cousin.
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  #403  
Old 06-02-2021, 06:34 AM
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The Aoste were alowed to return in Italy and the savoie were banned !
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  #404  
Old 06-02-2021, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
They are very distant branches of the family though. Aren't Aimone and Emanuele Filiberto fourth cousins ?

See Umberto di Savoia and Aimone di Savoia-Aosta side-a-side with King Vittorio Emanuele:


http://www.altezzareale.com/wp-conte...berto-II-2.jpg


5. Emanuele Filiberto di Savoia x Clotilde Courau
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4. Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia, Duke of Savoy x Marina Doria
|
3. Umberto II di Savoia, King of Italy x Princess Marie-José of Belgium
|
2. Vittorio Emanuele III di Savoia, King of Italy x Princess Helena of Montenegro
|
1. Umberto I di Savoia, King of Italy x Princess Margareta di Savoia
|
Vittorio Emanuele II di Savoia, King of Italy x Adélaïde von Habsburg-Lothringen, Archduchess of Austria


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Vittorio Emanuele II di Savoia, King of Italy x Adélaïde von Habsburg-Lothringen, Archduchess of Austria
|
1. Amedeo di Savoia, 1st Duke of Aosta x Donna Maria dal Pozzo dei principi della Cisterna
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2. Emanuele Filiberto di Savoia, 2nd Duke of Aosta x Hélène d'Orléans, Princess of France
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3. Aimone di Savoia, 4th Duke of Aosta x Princess Irene of Greece and Denmark
|
4. Amedeo di Savoia, 5th Duke of Aosta x Claude d'Orléans, Princess of France
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5. Aimone di Savoia, 6th Duke of Aosta x Princess Olga of Greece
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  #405  
Old 06-02-2021, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
The Aoste were alowed to return in Italy and the savoie were banned !
Yes - as though the authors of the ban had been able to see into the senior line's future!
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  #406  
Old 06-02-2021, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Likewise, there is no Savoy monarchy under which the rules of the monarchy can stipulate that Amedeo, Aimone and Umberto should succeed as Head of House.
True! Though Savoy monarchichal tradition heavily favors the Aosta after the revelations of 2006, which is precisely why there was, in short order, an exodus of die-hard Italian monarchists from VE to the Duke of Aosta (albeit a very mini-exodus since Italian monarchists are rare!).
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  #407  
Old 06-02-2021, 06:55 AM
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Duc Amedeo such as his Father Duc Aymone was a Women Lover.
He had a Son Don Pietro della Rochetta born on November 30 th 1967 never recognsed and his own Son Aymone the Actual Duke of Aosta is born on 13/7/1967.

He recognised Ginevra (2006)


Claude de France and Amedeo divorced on 1982 and the annulment of their Wedding by the Holy See was granted in 1987. reason : Immature Wedding

Duke Amedeo sold his lands to Ferragamo. He and his Mother in the Past had always money Problem.


May he rest in Piece.
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  #408  
Old 06-02-2021, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Addapalla View Post
Yes - as though the authors of the ban had been able to see into the senior line's future!

But then when the Law was made that only the descendants of the Kings where banned from Italy Duke Amedeo was third in line of succession back then.
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  #409  
Old 06-02-2021, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
They are very distant branches of the family though. Aren't Aimone and Emanuele Filiberto fourth cousins ?


Still, you are correct in the sense that, using the patrilineal naming convention, they are members of the same family. The tricky issue is that, using the same convention, Vittoria di Savoia's children will belong to a different family.


If Aimone and Vittoria were both claiming the (defunct) throne of Italy , I guess that would not be a major issue. Indeed, in countries that have had cognatic sucession for centuries, including England and later the UK, the Crown passed from one family to another multiple times and it is reasonable that Emanuele Filiberto would rather have his daughter succeed him than his fourth cousin.


The problem is, however, that the question here is not succession to the throne of Italy, which unfortunately was irrevocably abolished by the republlican constitution of 1947. Instead, the dispute between the two branches is about the succession to the position of head of the family and grand master of the Savoy orders and, in this case, it is somewhat odd that Vittoria di Savoia's descendants should become heads of a family to which they do not belong.


As pointed out by other posters, merit of course is not a prerequisite for hereditary succession, which is inherently non-meritocratic. But, if merit is to be discussed, especially if we were discussing who would be best fit to be King of Italy (something that is now constitutionally impossible under the Republic), I am afraid that neither branch scores high marks.


Marengo mentioned Emanuele Filiberto's claims in the French TV documentary Royals at War that his grandfather was somehow forced to cooperate with Mussolini, or else he would have been deposed and replaced with the Aostas, who were "notorious fascists". That is not a new claim and is part of the revisionist narrative that the main branch of the House of Savoy has been trying to push for quite some time. Unfortunately, that is not true, or, to give the Savoys the benefit of the doubt, at least it is not entirely true. In other forums, I mentioned multiple occasions when Vittorio Emanuele III could have removed Mussolini and would have been backed by the Italian establishment and the military, but chose not to do it.

Of course, Vittoria di Savoia, a 17-year-old teenager raised in France, is not guilty of the sins of her ancestors and it is not fair that she should be punished for that or, indeed, for the questionable personal life of other more recent members of her family.
It is true that Vittorio Emanuele and the late Amedeo are distantly related but the Aostas have never been far away in the constitutional line of succession: the 4th Duke of Aosta was the Number Three when the monarchy was exiled. The 5th Duke of Aosta was the Number Two until recently, when Vittorio Emanuele thought he should change the succession.
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  #410  
Old 06-02-2021, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But then when the Law was made that only the descendants of the Kings where banned from Italy Duke Amedeo was third in line of succession back then.
Other countries' post-monarchy royal bans were more inclusive/extensive, but unlike VE III and his family, the Duke at the time (Aimone) emerged relatively untainted by the Fascist past, though I would be the last to portray him as an innocent. His efforts to reach out to the enemy in pursuit of peace in the Autumn of 1942 may have impacted the decision to restrict the ban to only the senior line instead of all Savoy male dynasts. But remember Duke Aimone did depart Italy following the stablishment of a republic and he died in voluntary exile.
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  #411  
Old 06-02-2021, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Adappalla View Post
Few of the remaining Italian monarchists support the senior branch since the revelations of 2006, so even among Italy's committed “pretend-monarchy” crowd they have been virtually abandoned in favor of the generally better-behaved Aosta branch.
The few remaining monarchists in European republics will often be ultra-conservative and thus support the most conservative option available. That is why a high percentage of French monarchists are now supporting the curious claim of the future duke of Franco. The same goes for Brazil, where the junior branch seems to be hellbent on making itself extinct.

If King Umberto II had won the referendum and Italy had remained a monarchy it would be logical that his heir would be better prepared for the job and behaved accordingly. It would not be likely that the prince of Venice would be living in Hollywood or be participating in 'Dancing with the stars'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adappalla
Other countries' post-monarchy royal bans were more inclusive/extensive, but unlike VE III and his family, the Duke at the time (Aimone) emerged relatively untainted by the Fascist past, though I would be the last to portray him as an innocent. His efforts to reach out to the enemy in pursuit of peace in the Autumn of 1942 may have impacted the decision to limit the ban to the senior line instead of all Savoy male dynasts. But remember Duke Aimone did depart Italy following the stablishment of a republic and he died in voluntary exile.
Interesting. I suppose the prince of Venice must have been referring to the 2nd duke (also named Emanuele Filiberto), who was proposed as an alternative king by Mussolini in the case VEIII wanted to depose him. The duke was promoted to Marshall of Italy by Mussolini in 1926.

---
On a different note: do we know how the main branch now regards the line of succession? Do the Aosta's follow the daughters of the Prince of Venice? Or are the offspring of the various daughters of Umberto II and Vittorio Emanuele III placed ahead of them?
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  #412  
Old 06-02-2021, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
On a different note: do we know how the main branch now regards the line of succession? Will the Aosta's follow the daughters of the Prince of Venice? Or are the offspring of the various daughters of Umberto II and Vittorio Emanuele III placed ahead of them?
The main branch limits the line of succession to the descendants of the present Vittorio Emanuele. See the document here: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2404283
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  #413  
Old 06-02-2021, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
Nicolae al Romaniei/Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth-Mills at his Facebook
"I learned with special sadness about the passing into eternity of His Royal Highness Prince Amedeo of Savoy, Duke of Aosta.
Son of Duke Aimone of Aosta and Princess Irina of Greece and Denmark, he was the first cousin of my grandfather, King Mihai I. Prince Amedeo was a special man, whom I often visited as a child in Italy.
He was always close to Queen Elena, Queen Anne and Princesses Elena, Irina, Sofia and Maria. He also visited our country several times, the last time being present with his daughter, Princess Mafalda, at the burial ceremony of Queen Mother Elena, in October 2019.
I extend my condolences to the family, along with my good thoughts. Rest in peace!
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid...48566806632267
Nice message from Nicholas.
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  #414  
Old 06-02-2021, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
That is a nice tribute by Nicholas.
Leaving out Margarita as the only of the 5 sisters to whom he was close according to Nicholas doesn't seem a nice tribute to me. He could easily have written "He was always close to (...) and my mother (princess Elena) and her sisters" but chose to specifically exclude one of his aunts who is the current head of the family.
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  #415  
Old 06-02-2021, 02:20 PM
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Leaving out Margarita as the only of the 5 sisters to whom he was close according to Nicholas doesn't seem a nice tribute to me. He could easily have written "He was always close to (...) and my mother (princess Elena) and her sisters" but chose to specifically exclude one of his aunts who is the current head of the family.
It is remarkable indeed while his aunt and the late Duke were alike siblings and the two have been unbreakable:


Communiqué from the Royal House of Romania:


THE DUKE OF AOSTA - IN MEMORIAM


It is with unspeakable sadness that Her Majesty The Custodian of the Crown and His Royal Highness Prince Radu learned about the passing into eternity of His Royal Highness Prince Amedeo, the Duke of Aosta.

Amedeo di Savoia-Aosta, 5th Duke of Aosta, was born on the 27th of September 1943 in Florence as the son of Aimone di Savoia-Aosta, 4th Duke of Aosta of and Princess Irene of Greece and Denmark.

As a first cousin to King Michael, the Duke of Aosta was a constant presence in the life of the Romanian royal family. Prince Amedeo was like a brother to Princess Margareta, the Custodian of the Crown, whom he met from the first day of her life and with whom he remained uninterruptedly close.

The Duke and Princess Margareta maintained a deep friendship in childhood, adolescence, adulthood as well in professional life. The Duke of Aosta has also always been with Queen Helena, King Michael, Queen Anne and with the princesses Helena, Irina, Sofia and Maria.

Prince Amedeo visited Romania several times, as a guest of the royal family. His last stay, in Bucharest and at Curtea de Argeș, with his daughter Princess Mafalda, was in October 2019, at the burial ceremony of Queen Helena.

The Custodian of the Crown and Their Royal Highnesses all conveyed their heartfelt condoleances and full symapthy to the grieving family.


https://www.romaniaregala.ro/jurnal/...a-in-memoriam/
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  #416  
Old 06-02-2021, 02:33 PM
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Marlene Koening wrote in Royal Musings a great Article about Duke Amadeo passing away.
She added warm private pictures she took herself of the Custudian and the Duke.
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  #417  
Old 06-02-2021, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Communiqué from the Royal House of Romania:


THE DUKE OF AOSTA - IN MEMORIAM


It is with unspeakable sadness that Her Majesty The Custodian of the Crown and His Royal Highness Prince Radu learned about the passing into eternity of His Royal Highness Prince Amedeo, the Duke of Aosta.

Amedeo di Savoia-Aosta, 5th Duke of Aosta, was born on the 27th of September 1943 in Florence as the son of Aimone di Savoia-Aosta, 4th Duke of Aosta of and Princess Irina of Greece and Denmark.

As a first cousin to King Michael, the Duke of Aosta was a constant presence in the life of the Romanian royal family. Prince Amedeo was like a brother to Princess Margareta, the Custodian of the Crown, whom he met from the first day of her life and with whom he remained uninterruptedly close.

The Duke and Princess Margareta maintained a deep friendship in childhood, adolescence, adulthood as well in professional life. The Duke of Aosta has also always been with Queen Helena, King Michael, Queen Anne and with the princesses Helena, Irina, Sofia and Maria.

Prince Amedeo visited Romania several times, as a guest of the royal family. His last stay, in Bucharest and at Curtea de Argeș, with his daughter Princess Mafalda, was in October 2019, at the burial ceremony of Queen Helena.

The Custodian of the Crown and Their Royal Highnesses all conveyed their heartfelt condoleances and full symapthy to the grieving family.

https://www.romaniaregala.ro/jurnal/...a-in-memoriam/
Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Marlene Koening wrote in Royal Musings a great Article about Duke Amadeo passing away.
She added warm private pictures she took herself of the Custudian and the Duke.


A nice article indeed, with an error: the wife of Aimone di Savoia, the new Duke of Aosta, is not Alexandra but Princess Olga of Greece.

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  #418  
Old 06-02-2021, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is remarkable indeed while his aunt and the late Duke were alike siblings and the two have been unbreakable:


Communiqué from the Royal House of Romania:


THE DUKE OF AOSTA - IN MEMORIAM


It is with unspeakable sadness that Her Majesty The Custodian of the Crown and His Royal Highness Prince Radu learned about the passing into eternity of His Royal Highness Prince Amedeo, the Duke of Aosta.

Amedeo di Savoia-Aosta, 5th Duke of Aosta, was born on the 27th of September 1943 in Florence as the son of Aimone di Savoia-Aosta, 4th Duke of Aosta of and Princess Irene of Greece and Denmark.

As a first cousin to King Michael, the Duke of Aosta was a constant presence in the life of the Romanian royal family. Prince Amedeo was like a brother to Princess Margareta, the Custodian of the Crown, whom he met from the first day of her life and with whom he remained uninterruptedly close.

The Duke and Princess Margareta maintained a deep friendship in childhood, adolescence, adulthood as well in professional life. The Duke of Aosta has also always been with Queen Helena, King Michael, Queen Anne and with the princesses Helena, Irina, Sofia and Maria.

Prince Amedeo visited Romania several times, as a guest of the royal family. His last stay, in Bucharest and at Curtea de Argeș, with his daughter Princess Mafalda, was in October 2019, at the burial ceremony of Queen Helena.

The Custodian of the Crown and Their Royal Highnesses all conveyed their heartfelt condoleances and full symapthy to the grieving family.


https://www.romaniaregala.ro/jurnal/...a-in-memoriam/
Hmm... Seems like Nicholas made an adaptation of the official communique but didn't pay sufficient attention and because of that left out his aunt (who of course did not need to put her own name in the list of family members after already describing how she had a close relationship with him).
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  #419  
Old 06-02-2021, 04:16 PM
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Hmm... Seems like Nicholas made an adaptation of the official communique but didn't pay sufficient attention and because of that left out his aunt (who of course did not need to put her own name in the list of family members after already describing how she had a close relationship with him).
Yes that was my idea too, Nicholas copied the communiqué of the Royal House but forgot it was written on behalf of Princess Margareta, whom named her sisters Elena, Irina, Sofia and Maria. By the copying Nicholas possibly overlooked that his aunt Margareta, possibly the closest of all to the late Duke, was not included in "his" text.
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  #420  
Old 06-03-2021, 05:20 AM
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If it was a mistake He could correct it later ! or publish new communiqué .
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