Duke Carlos Javier and the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma 1: August 2010- 2022

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by Cory

He won't be a member of the House of Bourbon Parma either.

According to the director of the Foundation for Dutch Nobility (see Dutch newspaper article), he now officially is a member of the princely house 'de Bourbon de Parme' in the Netherlands. He even stated that Prince Hugo will become the 'head' of the Dutch branch upon his father's passing.

However, the family will not recognize him as head as they will most likely follow the current's head lead and recognize his younger son by princess Annemarie as the future house's head.

So, internationally prince Carlos (Enrique) will be the head of the Bourbon Parma family, in the Netherlands prince (Carlos) Hugo will be the head according to the Dutch nobility rules.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Katrianna

Isn't the son born legitimately to Carlos Javier named Carlos also. This is going to be confusing to the public who aren't as informed as Royal and Noble watchers.

The soon-to-be-Prince (it requires a Royal Decree signed by the Duke's cousin, The King) goes by the name Hugo.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Somebody

According to the director of the Foundation for Dutch Nobility (see Dutch newspaper article), he now officially is a member of the princely house 'de Bourbon de Parme' in the Netherlands. He even stated that Prince Hugo will become the 'head' of the Dutch branch upon his father's passing.

However, the family will not recognize him as head as they will most likely follow the current's head lead and recognize his younger son by princess Annemarie as the future house's head.

So, internationally prince Carlos (Enrique) will be the head of the Bourbon Parma family, in the Netherlands prince (Carlos) Hugo will be the head according to the Dutch nobility rules.

In my opinion the Netherlands does not know "heads" of a noble House: all noblemen are equal.
In Belgium this is still visible in using the word The without firstname:

De Graaf van Limburg Stirum (eldest)
Graaf Eric van Limburg Stirum (brother)
Graaf Pierre van Limburg Stirum (brother)

In the Netherlands however these three brothers are styled the same:

Marcel graaf van Limburg Stirum
Eric graaf van Limburg Stirum
Pierre graaf van Limburg Stirum

In the Dutch nobility system Carlos and his sons are also not styled differently.
It is not visible who is the head:

Carlos prins de Bourbon de Parme (father)
Hugo prins de Bourbon de Parme (extramarital son)
Carlos prins de Bourbon de Parme (marital son)

[Marengo]

Agreed, the styling usually is not very different. The titles 'Duke of Parma' and all the other Italian and Spanish titles are not recognised by law. But there are 'heads' of noble families in the Netherlands. They usually do not have a special distinction indeed, though in some families the chef has a higher title than the other members of his family. Example: the van Zuylen van Nijevelts of Duinrell amusement park. The head of the family is Count Hugo while his son & heir is Baron Philip (married to the grand mistress of the Court btw).

Despite there not being a clear destinction, it is clear that for example Frederik, Graaf van Lynden van Sandenburg is the head of his family, and Arent, Baron van Wassenaer is the head of Holland's oldest surviving & most prestigeous noble family. The main branch of the Limburg-Stirums has been living in Finland for some generations.

Note that in the interview with the Volkskrant, the director of the counsel of the nobility explicitely mentions that there will be two heads of the Bourbon-Parma's. It seems that for the Dutch counsel of nobility the new prince Hugo will be the eventual head of the Dutch noble family de Bourbon de Parma, while for the family itself prince Carlos Henrique will become the head of the Royal house of Parma. Note that as a side snipe he also -wrongly- mentions that the family is not entitled to call themselves royal.

Anyway, what a mess. Fortunately the new prince and his mother have never appeared in interviews or on television, let's hope that this will not change.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Agreed, the styling usually is not very different. The titles 'Duke of Parma' and all the other Italian and Spanish titles are not recognised by law. But there are 'heads' of noble families in the Netherlands. They usually do not have a special distinction indeed, though in some families the chef has a higher title than the other members of his family. For examples; the van Zuylen van Nijevelts of Duinrell amusement park. The head of the family is Count Hugo while his son is Baron Philip (married to the grand mistress of the Court btw).

Despite there not being a clear destinction, it is clear that for example Frederik, Graaf van Lynden van Sandenburg is the head of his family, and Arent, Baron van Wassenaer is the head of Holland's oldest surviving & most prestigeous noble family. The main branch of the Limburg-Stirums has been living in Finland for some generations.

Note that in the interview with the Volkskrant, the director of the counsel of the nobility explicitely mentions that there will be two heads of the Bourbon-Parma's. It seems that for the Dutch counsel of nobility the eldest son will be the eventual head of the Dutch noble family de Bourbon de Parma, while for the family itself prince Carlos Henrique will become the head of the Royal house of Parma. Note that as a side snipe he also -wrongly- mentions that the family is not entitled to call themselves royal.

The snipe is about "The Royal House of Bourbon-Parma" which indeed does not exist. There was never a King of Parma indeed. It is the Royal House of Bourbon (that is where they derive their HRH from) and the Ducal House of Parma.

Empress Zita is reported to have said that she is "Zita de Bourbon, Princess of Parma". That looks more correct to me.

Carlos de Bourbon, Hertog van Parma
Hugo de Bourbon, prins van Parma
Luisa de Bourbon, prinses van Parma
Cecilia de Bourbon, prinses van Parma
Carlos jr. de Bourbon, prins van Parma
Margarita de Bourbon, prinses van Parma
Jaime de Bourbon, prins van Parma
Zita de Bourbon, prinses van Parma
Gloria de Bourbon, prinses van Parma
Carolina de Bourbon, prinses van Parma

[maria-olivia]

I wonder why the Bourbon Parme wanted to be member of the Dutch Nobility?.
Now you have in the Netherlands a second Branch of Bourbon Parme with the same name Carlos but not with the same privileges, what confusing !.
Do you think Prince Jaime could have been Ambassador of the Holy See if he was not Dutch ?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

I wonder why the Bourbon Parme wanted to be member of the Dutch Nobility?.
Now you have in the Netherlands a second Branch of Bourbon Parme with the same name Carlos but not with the same privileges, what confusing !.
Do you think Prince Jaime could have been Ambassador of the Holy See if he was not Dutch ?

The Netherlands have a legally recognized (and protected) system of nobility. In France, in Italy and in Spain they were "nothing". In Spain the husband of Princess Irene was just "Don Carlos Hugo de Borbón-Parma y Borbón-Busset". No any title. No any prefix. Nothing.

Compare it with Prince Lorenz in Belgium. In Austria he is just "Lorenz Habsburg". Not even Von. In Belgium he is legally Aartshertog van Oostenrijk-Este / Archiduc d'Autriche-Este, protected by Belgian law.

The only requirement for Jaime to become an Ambassador is to have the Dutch citizenship. Being part of the nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands has nothing to do with this.

Originally Posted by maria-olivia

[...]
Now you have in the Netherlands a second Branch of Bourbon Parme with the same name Carlos but not with the same privileges, what confusing !.
[...]

There is only one family De Bourbon de Parme in the Nobility of the Netherlands. There are no two branches. In the Netherlands having nobility does not come woth any privilege. In that aspect there is no difference between Hugo and his halfbrother Carlos.

A branch within the same family is recognizeable by the name:

Van Lawick
Van Lawick van Pabst

Smits van Oyen
Smits van Eckart

De Wijkerslooth
De Wijkerslooth de Weerdesteyn

Von Quadt zu Wykradt und Isny
Von Quadt-Hüchtenbruck

Etc.

[iceflower]

.

Princess Tania of Bourbon-Parma attended the Gala d'Enfance Majuscule in Paris yesterday, March 26:


** Pic **

[maria-olivia]

Absolutely no news , no pictures from Princess Irene youngest daughter Princeee Carolina.

[Marengo]

The Brenninkmeijer family is notorious for guarding their privacy. The princess and her family are also living in Hong Kong, which will prevent them from attending most family events in the Netherlands or Parma.

[Duc_et_Pair]

The wealthiest and at the same time the most secretive family in the Netherlands. (The Brenninkmeijers). When you see gossip shows like Boulevard, you never see the real money. The same in Belgium: the family De Spoelberch is very secretive as well.

[maria-olivia]

Thank you Marengo for your quick answer.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

The wealthiest and at the same time the most secretive family in the Netherlands. (The Brenninkmeijers). When you see gossip shows like Boulevard, you never see the real money. The same in Belgium: the family De Spoelberch is very secretive as well.

The extremely wealthy Swedish family of Wallenberg have as their motto "To act without being seen" which I'd say goes for both the Swedish aristocracy and for the Industrialist bourgeoisie that came after them.
The same goes for the influential and wealthy family of Douglas - Billionaire Counts, owners of several castles, heirs to the House of Vasa, counting Duchesses of Marlborough and Bavaria amongst themselves they're completely unknown to the Swedish public.

[eya]

Prince Michel of Bourbon Parma dies 7 July in Neuilly-sur-Seine France at the age of 92.

Her Majesty Margareta of Romania send her condolences :
"Her Majesty Margareta, along with the entire Royal Family of Romania, was sadly aware of the passing of his Royal Highness Prince Michel of Bourbon-Parma, Queen Anne's brother of Romania."

Principele Michel de Bourbon-Parma, In Memoriam | Familia Regală a României / Royal Family of Romania

He was married at a second Wedding to Princess Maria Pia of Savoy.

[MAfan]

An obituary of Prince Michel from Royal Musings:
Royal Musings: Prince Michel of Bourbon-Parma

[An Ard Ri]

I wonder if any of the Romanian RF will attend the funeral?

[MAfan]

That will be interesting to see. At least this time there has been some sort of "reaction", with the announcement published by Margareta to the website of the Royal House; IIRC when Prince André (Queen Anne and Prince Michel's younger brother) died in 2011 there was no reaction at all (although it happened in the midst of the celebrations for King Michael's 90th birthday).

[Marengo]

I thought that the prince and his wife were living in Florida, but apparently not.

May he rest in peace.

[Biri]

May he rest in peace.

List of his descendants:

6.5.3.Prince Michel of Bourbon-Parma (1926-2018), m.1st 1951 (div) 1999) Princess Yolande de Broglie-Revel (1928-2014), m.2nd 2003 Princess Maria Pia of Savoy (*1934)
6.5.3.1.Princess Inès of Bourbon-Parma (1952-1981)
6.5.3.1.1.[by ............] Mélodie de Bourbon de Parme (*1977)
6.5.3.2.Prince Eric of Bourbon-Parma (*1953), m.1980 (div 2000) Countess Lydia Holstein (*1955)
6.5.3.2.1.Princess Antoinette of Bourbon-Parma (*1981), m.2010 Martin Krusbæk (*1982)
6.5.3.2.1.1.Inès Krusbæk (*2011)
6.5.3.2.1.2.Maximilian Krusbæk (*2012)
6.5.3.2.1.3.Alix Krusbæk (*2016)
6.5.3.2.2.Princess Marie Gabrielle of Bourbon-Parma (*1982)
6.5.3.2.2.1.[by ............] Mark de Bourbon de Parme (*1999)
6.5.3.2.3.Princess Alexia of Bourbon-Parma (*1985), m.2007 Fabian Davis (*1984)
6.5.3.2.3.1.Rebecca Davis (*2004)
6.5.3.2.3.2.Bianca Davis (*2008)
6.5.3.2.4.Prince Michel of Bourbon-Parma (*1989)
6.5.3.2.5.Prince Henri of Bourbon-Parma (*1991), engaged 2017 to Archduchess Gabriella of Austria (*1994)
6.5.3.2.5.1.[by Archduchess Gabriella of Austria (*1994)] Victoria ............ (*2017)
6.5.3.3.Princess Sybille of Bourbon-Parma (*1954), m.1997 Craig Richards (*1962)
6.5.3.4.Princess Victoire of Bourbon-Parma (1957-2001), m.1st 1974 (div 1988) Baron Ernst von Gecmen-Waldek (*1943), m.2nd 1993 Carlos Ernesto Rodriguez (*1956)
6.5.3.4.1.Baroness Tatiana von Gecmen-Waldek (*1974), m.1995 Michael Berger-Sandhofer (*1962)
6.5.3.4.1.1.Alexander Berger-Sandhofer (*1995)
6.5.3.4.1.2.Balthazar Berger-Sandhofer (*1997)
6.5.3.4.2.Baron Vincent-Nicholas von Gecmen-Waldek (*1981)
6.5.3.5.Prince Charles Emanuel of Bourbon-Parma (*1961), m.1991 Baroness Constance de Ravinel (*1970)
6.5.3.5.1.Prince Amaury of Bourbon-Parma (*1991)
6.5.3.5.2.Princess Charlotte of Bourbon-Parma (*1993)
6.5.3.5.3.Princess Elisabeth of Bourbon-Parma (*1996)
6.5.3.5.4.Princess Zita of Bourbon-Parma (*1999)
6.5.3.6.[by Laure Le Bourgeois (*1950)] Amélie Le Bourgeois, became Amélie de Bourbon de Parme in 1997 (*1977), m.2009 Igor Ostasenko-Bogdanoff (*1949)
6.5.3.6.1.Alexandre Ostasenko-Bogdanoff (*2011)
6.5.3.6.2.Constantin Ostasenko-Bogdanoff (*2014)

Source: Hein Bruins Page.

Wasn't he reportedly a biological father of his wife's younger twins?

[maria-olivia]

A few years ago , Prince Michel de Bourbon Parma gave to Coutau Begarie letters of Marie de Guise , Princess Valdemar of Denmark. The Catalogue was printed and his Children via their lawyer cancelled the Auction of all Princess Marie's private letters.