Who is the Head of the Imperial Family?

[genegirl99]

Umm, wasn't Cyril dead when Vladimir married Leonida?

[BeatrixFan]

You're quite right, he was, my mistake. However, that actually makes the case even stronger because when Cyril died and Vladimir became Head of the House (let's remember that actually connotates Tsar of all the Russias) he could have ripped every dynastic law in the book and been quite entitled to do so. If Leonida wasn't equal, he could even have made her so before their marriage. Monarchs often change things to suit the time or their own ends. Look at George V and the surname swap during the First World War.

[genegirl99]

Actually there were a few posts that I noticed saying that.

I thought as one of the conditions for marrying Maria, GD Vladimir had to renounce the rights of any children he had with her, but retained his rights to the throne...

Or maybe I'm trying to stir up trouble? LOL

[BeatrixFan]

I assume you mean Leonida? I doubt very much Vladimir would have agreed to that. Besides, the royal house of Bagration had been recognised by Russia in 1783 with the Treaty of Georgievsk and that was never repealed, so Leonida was equal to Vladimir and the question of their children having succession rights was really not an issue.

[branchg]

The Gruzinsky line of the Bagrids was the reigning branch over Georgia, not the Moukhransky, which was a cadet line. The Treaty only recognized the royal status of the reigning King and his heir, not the other branches. In 1800, Paul revoked the Treaty and annexed Georgia.

Vladimir recognized Prince George of Moukhrani in 1946 as being of royal rank in a published decree. At that time, there was doubt whether there were surviving descendants of the Gruzinsky still alive in Georgia, especially in light of Stalin's reign of terror. He recognized the Moukhrani branch as the surviving branch of the Georgian royal house, which was his right as de-jure Tsar.

Vladimir was already the Head of the Imperial House at the time of his marriage to Leonida and declared her of equal rank.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by genegirl99

Actually there were a few posts that I noticed saying that.

I thought as one of the conditions for marrying Maria, GD Vladimir had to renounce the rights of any children he had with her, but retained his rights to the throne...

Or maybe I'm trying to stir up trouble? LOL

Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich did not renounce his rights to the throne with his marriage to Marie. Nor was he the only Grand Duke who married a royal princess that retained her faith. These requirements were only for the monarch and heir to the throne.

And his father, Alexander II, married morganatically after the death of Empress Marie. His mother, Princess Marie of Hesse-Darmstadt, was illegitimate, but recognized by Louis II as his own child.

[BeatrixFan]

Originally Posted by branchg

The Gruzinsky line of the Bagrids was the reigning branch over Georgia, not the Moukhransky, which was a cadet line. The Treaty only recognized the royal status of the reigning King and his heir, not the other branches. In 1800, Paul revoked the Treaty and annexed Georgia.

Vladimir recognized Prince George of Moukhrani in 1946 as being of royal rank in a published decree. At that time, there was doubt whether there were surviving descendants of the Gruzinsky still alive in Georgia, especially in light of Stalin's reign of terror. He recognized the Moukhrani branch as the surviving branch of the Georgian royal house, which was his right as de-jure Tsar.

Vladimir was already the Head of the Imperial House at the time of his marriage to Leonida and declared her of equal rank.

Thanks for this branchg! So yep, Leonida was equal because Vladimir made her so, thus Maria is of equal birth.

[Warren]

Posts discussing Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna's role have been moved to her thread as they don't relate to the topic of 'Who is the Head of the Imperial Family?'

° ° °

The moderators have noted that this thread is one of the most repetitive and circular discussions we have in the Forums. Time after time the same questions are asked, the same facts are stated, the same arguments for and against are put forward, and then the process starts all over again from scratch with exactly the same questions, facts and arguments restated.

Until there is something new to report and discuss on this issue, the thread will remain closed.

Warren
Non-Reigning Houses moderator

[BrazilianEmpire]

I think she inherited the Headship of the Imperial House at the death of her father.

She would be the Curatrix only if one of the other Romanov Dynasts had outlived her father, because none of them (except her father) have had Dynastic issue. But Grand Duke Vladimir Cyrillovich was the last male Dynast (with the exception of Grand Duke George) to die, so, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna bacame the Head of the Imperial House and Empress de jure.

Grand Duke George will ascend to the Headship of the Imperial House only after his mother dies or renounces her rights to the Throne.

[NGalitzine]

Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire

I think she inherited the Headship of the Imperial House at the death of her father.

She would be the Curatrix only if one of the other Romanov Dynasts had outlived her father, because none of them (except her father) have had Dynastic issue. But Grand Duke Vladimir Cyrillovich was the last male Dynast (with the exception of Grand Duke George) to die, so, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna bacame the Head of the Imperial House and Empress de jure.

Grand Duke George will ascend to the Headship of the Imperial House only after his mother dies or renounces her rights to the Throne.

Many would argue that under the Pauline Laws her father did not make an equal marriage so Maria herself would be considered non-dynastic. During the Empire marriage to a Bagration was not considered equal as Princess Tatiana found out and had to formally give up her remote place in the line of succession. Leonida herself came from the non-reigning branch of the former Georgian royal family that was incorporated into the Russian nobility. Marias father basically married a member of the Russian nobility, as had many other Romanovs in exile although they lost their succession rights because of it.

[BrazilianEmpire]

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

Many would argue that under the Pauline Laws her father did not make an equal marriage so Maria herself would be considered non-dynastic. During the Empire marriage to a Bagration was not considered equal as Princess Tatiana found out and had to formally give up her remote place in the line of succession. Leonida herself came from the non-reigning branch of the former Georgian royal family that was incorporated into the Russian nobility. Marias father basically married a member of the Russian nobility, as had many other Romanovs in exile although they lost their succession rights because of it.

On the website of the Imperial House, they consider the Bragations as equals, and they have pretty good arguments.

Dynastic Succession

Personally, I think Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna has the strongest claim, and her position as Empress de jure is undisputabl.

[NGalitzine]

I would hardly expect Maria to argue that her parents marriage was not dynastic which would not be in her best interests, I was merely pointing out that during the reign of the last Tsar the prescedent would suggest a Bagration was not considered equal for marriage to a Romanoff dynast under the families Pauline Laws. Such a marriage required the dynast to give up their succession rights before marrying.

Personally I think Maria stands on pretty shaky grounds where ever she turns. Her own position as "Head" is not universally recognized and if Georgi (aka Prince George of Prussia per his father) marries a non-Orthodox, non-Russian commoner then all of her arguements just fly out the window since she insists the family consists of only herself and her son and the family becomes extinct. At the end of the day though none of it really matters since the Romanoffs lost the throne nearly 100 yrs ago and no one is begging to get them back. Georgi can do what ever he wants when it comes to picking a bride and Msria will just have to live with the consequences. I just hope some one has the smelling salts at hand when he comes home and announces his engagement to Rebecca.

[Ish]

I don't think it's that simple.

According to Maria her father was the last dynast and therefore she is the heir - if there are no other male dynasts then the succession goes to the last male dynasty's closest female relation born through the right dynastic relations.

I have heard it said that Vladimir's marriage itself wasn't dynastic, and that therefore Maria doesn't qualify as that female heir, but I've not read enough about it to really comment on that matter.

According to other Romanovs, however, regardless of what the succession may have been 100 years ago, the head of the house is not Maria but rather Nicholas Romanovich Romanov. It is significant that within the house itself, the only people who recognize Maria as the head are Maria and her son. The argument in defence of Nicholas, despite his parent's (alleged) non-dynastic marriage is that when the marriage happened no one asked them to renounce their rights or the rights of their children, therefore as no rights have been renounced Nicholas and others are still eligible to inherit.

With that said, I think when it comes to a non-ruling house - especially one that's as divided as the Romanovs - it's hard for any one person to try to put themselves as the head when they are in any way different from what the succession detailed - either because of their gender, their dynasticness, or what have you. Without a government to support them in making changes to the succession, or to support them in officially recognizing them as the head/monarch, really it's just a huge family struggle.

[BrazilianEmpire]

An interesting article about this matter.

THE RUSSIAN SUCCESSION

[Andolini]

Originally Posted by Ish

I don't think it's that simple.

According to Maria her father was the last dynast and therefore she is the heir - if there are no other male dynasts then the succession goes to the last male dynasty's closest female relation born through the right dynastic relations.

I have heard it said that Vladimir's marriage itself wasn't dynastic, and that therefore Maria doesn't qualify as that female heir, but I've not read enough about it to really comment on that matter.

According to other Romanovs, however, regardless of what the succession may have been 100 years ago, the head of the house is not Maria but rather Nicholas Romanovich Romanov. It is significant that within the house itself, the only people who recognize Maria as the head are Maria and her son. The argument in defence of Nicholas, despite his parent's (alleged) non-dynastic marriage is that when the marriage happened no one asked them to renounce their rights or the rights of their children, therefore as no rights have been renounced Nicholas and others are still eligible to inherit.

With that said, I think when it comes to a non-ruling house - especially one that's as divided as the Romanovs - it's hard for any one person to try to put themselves as the head when they are in any way different from what the succession detailed - either because of their gender, their dynasticness, or what have you. Without a government to support them in making changes to the succession, or to support them in officially recognizing them as the head/monarch, really it's just a huge family struggle.

I am absolutely no expert in the least so I have a question: If she does not have a very valid claim then why does the church recognize her?

[Ish]

Originally Posted by BrazilianEmpire

Personally, I think Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna has the strongest claim, and her position as Empress de jure is undisputabl.

See, personally I think Maria's claim is shakier than the other claims owing to the fact that within the family, hers is supported only by her and her son, while Nicholas is supported by the bulk of everyone else.

While Maria may have more apparent support from foreign royals or people like Putin, I think that's just because she's managed to put herself forward more. She circulates in those circles, therefore she's garnered that support. However, if the Russians decided to restore their throne and they named someone other than Maria as the monarch, Maria would most definitely lose whatever recognition she has today from any reigning monarch or foreign government.

[NGalitzine]

Well its not like Maria shows up on too many reigning royal family guest lists. She got an invite to the Monaco wedding but in Copenhagen it was Prince Dimitri Romanoff, the brother of Prince Nicholas, who was the guest. Most reigning royal families ignore the Romanoffs entirely. They have simply been gone from the scene too long and of course their internal disputes do them no good either.

[Ish]

Originally Posted by Andolini

I am absolutely no expert in the least so I have a question: If she does not have a very valid claim then why does the church recognize her?

It's my opinion that this support is more owing to the fact that Maria is the better connected claimant, not the most valid one.

Someone high up in the church had an opinion on the matter and chose to support Maria, as simple as that. Perhaps money exchanged hands, not that I would suggest such a thing.

If a referendum happened tomorrow and the Russian people chose to restore the monarchy and named Nicholas as the tsar you'd bet that the church would be changing who they support.

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

Well its not like Maria shows up on too many reigning royal family guest lists. She got an invite to the Monaco wedding but in Copenhagen it was Prince Dimitri Romanoff, the brother of Prince Nicholas, who was the guest. Most reigning royal families ignore the Romanoffs entirely. They have simply been gone from the scene too long and of course their internal disputes do them no good either.

This is a very good point.

[Andolini]

Originally Posted by Ish

It's my opinion that this support is more owing to the fact that Maria is the better connected claimant, not the most valid one.

Someone high up in the church had an opinion on the matter and chose to support Maria, as simple as that. Perhaps money exchanged hands, not that I would suggest such a thing.

If a referendum happened tomorrow and the Russian people chose to restore the monarchy and named Nicholas as the tsar you'd bet that the church would be changing who they support.



This is a very good point.

Thank you very much for your expertise

[AristoCat]

I think ti's a bad idea for the church to get involved in a spat like this; as for Rebecca, Maria will have a coronary, unless she has some sort of change of heart and changes the succession ideas and therefore undermines her credibility.

This is going to get interesting.