Who is the Head of the Imperial Family? - Page 16

XeniaCasaraghi · #**301** 08-04-2011, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genegirl99

So pulling the guards protecting the Empress and her sick children and wearing red isn't a betrayal?

Despite the known feelings For the Empress, but leaving sick kids unprotected, that's a hanging offense in my book...

It definitely fits into the text book definition of betrayal. I don't know if I would say it is a hanging offense, but it is pretty damn close. I mean that alone disqualifies him and his descendants, a part from the unequal marriage which is just icing on the cake. It's just infuriating that someone who did such a thing would even remotely think he can claim to be the head of the IF after the real head was murdered.

Cory · #**302** 08-04-2011, 07:22 PM

In 1924 Grand Duke Kirill was recognized by the dynast members of the Imperial Family as Head and "de iure Tsar" .They would have never recognized a "traitor" as their Head I suppose.

AristoCat · #**303** 08-04-2011, 07:51 PM

Well, I read in the Greg King biography of Alexandra, is that Cyril was never granted retroactive permission, which left a taint on his lineal claim to the Imperial throne.

branchg · #**304** 08-04-2011, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory

In 1924 Grand Duke Kirill was recognized by the dynast members of the Imperial Family as Head and "de iure Tsar" .They would have never recognized a "traitor" as their Head I suppose.

Grand Duke Nicholas and Grand Duke Peter both refused to recognize Cyril's claim for his actions in St. Petersburg. But they were the only surviving dynasts who withheld recognition of his assumption of the imperial title in-exile. The rest of the family publicly did.

Vasillisos Markos · #**305** 08-04-2011, 10:02 PM

Cyril's ostensible purpose in going over to the Duma early in the revolution was to "protect" the Imperial House and the Tsar but in reality, he had hoped to be made Regent and perhaps eventually named Tsar. When the monarchists in the Duma repudiated him, and the rest of the Duma was not interested in Cyril but Misha as a possible Regent, Cyril exploded in anger in a letter he wrote to Grand Duke Paul.

Cyril may have had a legal claim to be head of the Imperial House but his actions betrayed him; he was unscrupulous and traitorous and morally could not claim to lead the Romanovs.

AristoCat · #**306** 08-04-2011, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Cyril may have had a legal claim to be head of the Imperial House but his actions betrayed him; he was unscrupulous and traitorous and morally could not claim to lead the Romanovs.

To think, he also did that to his own family; ambition aside, he should have done something to save his family. He owed them that much, surely. Even when there was a hope that one of the Imperial familiy might have survived, it is unfathomable that he was so quick to claim headship, right over the cold body of the Dowager Empress.

XeniaCasaraghi · #**307** 08-04-2011, 11:04 PM

I remember Massie saying that Cyril claimed to be the head before Maria was dead and while she was still refusing to accept that her son and family were dead.
I don't think Cyril did anything to hurt or get the IF killed, he was just too stupid and ambitious and wanted to make it in good with the new regime, before the old regime was gone. I'm pretty sure that is a traitorous act in a lot of countries.

genegirl99 · #**308** 08-04-2011, 11:14 PM

I wonder if Miechen would have done something for the children despite her differences with the Empress....

You think a stunt like Edward VI of England would have crossed a Romanov's mind. Let woman pass their claim to their sons. Too bad Tsar Paul was too blinded by Mommy Hatred to even think of that... It might have put a different spin on this debate...

AristoCat · #**309** 08-04-2011, 11:23 PM

Quote:

I wonder if Miechen would have done something for the children despite her differences with the Empress....

No doubt; the kids would have been surrounded by their family and given all the love and support they needed. No doubt Cyril would have had to be restrained from marrying Olga off to his son Boris. The Romanovs would not have let them fend for themselves.

Cory · #**310** 08-05-2011, 05:47 AM

I suppose we have a thread dedicated to Grand Duke Kirill.Here we speak about the head of the Imperial House.

genegirl99 · #**311** 08-05-2011, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory

I suppose we have a thread dedicated to Grand Duke Kirill.Here we speak about the head of the Imperial House.

Sometimes the children pay for the sins of their parents. So yah, what Kyril did can be considered relevant to the debate.

vorky · #**312** 08-05-2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by genegirl99

Sometimes the children pay for the sins of their parents. So yah, what Kyril did can be considered relevant to the debate.

yes, but it has nothing to do with legal point of view. It is political/social matter.

Cory · #**313** 08-05-2011, 10:20 AM

The crown of Russia is inherited automatically respecting the laws of the imperial House.To have this title nowhere is written you should be declared saint first.

AristoCat · #**314** 08-05-2011, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Too bad Tsar Paul was too blinded by Mommy Hatred to even think of that... It might have put a different spin on this debate...

I don't blame him entirely; his mother treated him like he was insignificant and really, really failed to treat him with the respect he deserved as Heir. Anyway, it's too bad that Maria is on the outs instead of 'part of the team.' She would make an impressive asset and an intimidating foe to any family enemies if she were united with them.

Cory · #**315** 08-05-2011, 05:27 PM

There are many aristocrats of russian origin not only the group giuded by prince Nicholas Romanov(sky).Why should the Grand Duchess listen to a group that makes a lot of problems about her rights?

XeniaCasaraghi · #**316** 08-05-2011, 07:45 PM

I do blame Paul, so Catherine wasn't a good mother, cry me a river and get over it. What he did was spiteful and screwed Russia. He didn't think of anything except his own personal vendetta against a dead woman. And considering the kind of Tsar Paul turned out to be, Catherine had the right frame of mind preferring Alexander to him. That's my rant against crazy Tsar Paul.

AristoCat · #**317** 08-07-2011, 11:54 PM

I think this has plagued social and genealogical experts since the Revolution, no? I bet this would take a full team of forensic legal experts and genealogists to figure out. Then it would take a genuis of a diplomat to get everyone to agree.

NotAPretender · #**318** 08-08-2011, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cory

There are many aristocrats of russian origin not only the group giuded by prince Nicholas Romanov(sky).Why should the Grand Duchess listen to a group that makes a lot of problems about her rights?

So - she should only listen to those who agree with her? She should pretend to be an autocrat as she pretends to everything else?

Yes, that fits.

NotAPretender · #**319** 08-08-2011, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AristoCat

I think this has plagued social and genealogical experts since the Revolution, no? I bet this would take a full team of forensic legal experts and genealogists to figure out. Then it would take a genuis of a diplomat to get everyone to agree.

I doubt even then, AristoCat.

AristoCat · #**320** 08-08-2011, 10:37 PM

I wonder, would it be possible that if Maria were to step down from her 'rights,' that Georgi might be an acceptable Head of Romanov if he were to be more independent from his mother? Maybe they have the problem with Maria, not Georgi? He oculd then marry someone from the Prince Nicholas camp and then the warring branches would be unified and then things between the two could finally settle.