Tsar Paul I (1754-1801) and wives Natalia Alexeievna and Maria Feodorovna

[Vasillisos Markos]

My dear friend Russo gave me the idea for starting this thread.

But first, I wonder why is he known as Paul I when there has never been Paul II?

In confirmation to Russo's comment in the thread on Dmitri Pavlovich, Paul's second marriage was very happy and it appears that his relationship with the children was warm while his wife was cold and formal with her offspring. Of course, she might have been upset because of the sons' involvement with their father's death

Any comments about Catherine the Great's son? Such as who his father really was?

 

[EmpressRouge]

I think the style of the monarch differs by country? I mean, in Britain, there's only one John and he's only known as "John." Juan Carlos is the first and so far, only "Juan Carlos" but he's known as "Juan Carlos I" frequently.

Paul was certainly and interesting character. I definitely think the weird family dynamic during the reigns of Empress Elizabeth and his mother would have been miserable for anyone growing up in that milieu. Paul was said to have been particularly close to his daughters, especially the elder ones. His assassination came just a week after the death of his eldest daughter Alexandra, Archduchess of Austria in childbirth.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Of course, that makes sense! Why didn't I think of that? Thank you, Empress.

From what I've read, another daughter, Anna, married the King of the Netherlands and is still pretty much loved and admired in that country.
.

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

There is a book, Vasillisos, that I just completed called "The Grand Duchesses - Daughters and Granddaughters of Russia's Tsars" by Artuto E. Beeche.
It has lots of info on Paul's daughters.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

There is a book, Vasillisos, that I just completed called "The Grand Duchesses - Daughters and Granddaughters of Russia's Tsars" by Artuto E. Beeche.
It has lots of info on Paul's daughters.

Thank you for the book title. Is it a fairly new book?

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Thank you for the book title. Is it a fairly new book?

You are most welcome, I am not sure as to how new it is.... it's also one similarly titled about all the Grand Dukes.
It's new to me.... as, well, my "habit" is fairly expensive so I have to only get 3 or 4 books a quarter to me busy... Hahaha.
I can't remember where I got this one from - but I think it was Eurohistory.com

 

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi,

You can order a copy of "The Grand Duchesses" from Arturo Beeche at Eurohistory.
The book is several years old but still available - as he advertises it in his magazine.

"The Grand Dukes" book form Eurohistory is coming out from Eurohistory soon - promised this year!!

There is an even older one on "The Grand Dukes" by Prince David Chavchavedze, but I don't know if it's still available.
Try googling it or try Amazon...

Larry

 

[Russophile]

Prince David's book is in quite a few libraries. That is where I found it. A couple years ago My Peter was in negotiations on behalf of Prince David's heirs about the reissuing of the book. I wonder what happened.

Paul had a bit of a pug nose. I had read that one of Catherine's lovers had one as well, Serge Saltykov.

 

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Paul had a bit of a pug nose. I had read that one of Catherine's lovers had one as well, Serge Saltykov.

Enough said.......

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Thanks to all for the book suggestions and where to find them. I have seen the portrait of Paul and he is not very good looking IMO but that is just MO. However, I don't think he is ugly as one comment I read described him as the "ugliest" of the Romanov Tsars or something to that effect.

And yes, Russo dear, you vixen, Saltykov is rumored to be the proud papa of Paul

 

[Al_bina]

I would like to add my cents about Paul I. I read "The Favourite: The chronicles of Catherine II's reign" by Valentin Pikul. The book mostly focuses on Catherine II's relationship with Count Grigory Orlov. Of course, there are other people mentioned.
Count Sergi Saltykov was mentioned as the first favourite of Grand Duchess Ekaterina Alekseyevna. Rumours abounded as to whether or not Count Saltykov was Paul I's biological father. Naturally most of the court gossips was spread by people close to Peter III and his mistresses to get rid of the undesirable wife. Pikul stated that Grand Duchess Ekaterina Alekseyevna was called to the carpet by Elizaveta Petrovna to explain the situation. She had a private serious conversation with Empress in the presence of then Chancellor Bestuzhev. Grand Duchess Ekaterina Alekseevna was said to leave quietly with red from tears eyes. Pikul pointed out that it was impossible to clearly determine Paul I's father and offered two scenarios: (1) Peter III was in fact Paul I's father; and (2) knowing what was at the stake (i.e., life and freedom), Catherine II did a superb job of convincingly lying to Elizaveta Petrovna and, thus, actually saving Paul I's life. Given the history lessons, I have to note that Paul I was held hostage to the above ambiguous situation.

 

[Russophile]

I read somewhere, and here is where Russo's early set of Alzheimer's kicks in--was it Carolly Erickson???--where Empress Elizabeth was PUSHING courtiers on Catherine II to have a child as she knew Peter's limitations.

 

[Al_bina]

Pikul did not mention Elizaveta Petrovna as a facilitator of affairs. He pointed out that Elizaveta Petrovna was worried about the heir situation and threatened to lock the couple in a bedroom until the duty was fulfilled as well as expressed her sympathy to Grand Duchess Ekaterina Alekseyevna because of Peter's strange behaviour and multiple affairs. Chancellor Bestuzhev was said to have concerns about the fact that none of Peter's mistresses bore any illegitimate children.
I would say that any assumption about Paul I's biological father might be correct and only a DNA test might clear the situation one way or the other.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

From accounts I have read, Elizabeth wanted an heir from Paul and was said to be complicit in providing lovers for the young Tsarevna.

 

[Al_bina]

You mean from Peter III.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

You mean from Peter III.

Yes, you are correct. Mixing up my tsareviches and tsarevnas here!

 

[Russophile]

Yes, you are correct. Mixing up my tsareviches and tsarevnas here!

I HATE when that happens!

Does anybody think Russia will actually perform a DNA on Paul? Wouldn't THAT be interesting!

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

The Russian government may authorize it because it could show that the Romanov line ended centuries ago but I doubt Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna would agree to any DNA testing.

 

[Russophile]

The Russian government may authorize it because it could show that the Romanov line ended centuries ago but I doubt Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna would agree to any DNA testing.

They might due to the historical implecations, however, Maria is Maria. That won't change. I hardly think it matters what's in the blood anymore.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

They might due to the historical implecations, however, Maria is Maria. That won't change. I hardly think it matters what's in the blood anymore.

Russo dear,

It might not matter what's in the blood anymore but Romanov blood is what brought them to the throne. I don't have a genealogical chart handy but wouldn't Maria have to be descended from Paul? And if so, if he was not a Romanov, then neither is she. So, we need to test Paul's DNA with the DNA of an earlier Romanov for comparison. Let's get on the case!

 

[Russophile]

Russo dear,

It might not matter what's in the blood anymore but Romanov blood is what brought them to the throne. I don't have a genealogical chart handy but wouldn't Maria have to be descended from Paul? And if so, if he was not a Romanov, then neither is she. So, we need to test Paul's DNA with the DNA of an earlier Romanov for comparison. Let's get on the case!

What do you propose we do Holmes?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

What do you propose we do Holmes?

Elementary, my dear Watson. First, we must gain access to the St. Peter and St. Paul Cathedral in order to obtain bone scrapings from Paul and one of his revered ancestors, most likely Peter the Great. We will assume the identities of historians with a focus on royalist Russia. You, with your stunning good looks, will work your mojo on President Medyedev and gain our access to the tombs in the cathedral. After that, it will be a cakewalk.

Seriously, don't you think Maria will be opposed to taking DNA samples? She will probably mount some opposition, claiming that procedures to obtain DNA samples will disturb the peace of her revered ancestors.

 

[EmpressRouge]

Wasn't Elizaveta the last Romanov anyway? Peter actually belonged to the House of Holstein-Gottorps and just kept the Romanov name. I heard the Almanac de Gotha refused have listed them as the house of Romanov, but my memory might be playing tricks on me.

 

[Al_bina]

You are quite right. The Bolshevicks reminded to common people about this fact regularly.
On a different note, I do not see Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna allowing the DNA test as it may adversely affect her not-so-solid claims to the Russian Imperial throne.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Wasn't Elizaveta the last Romanov anyway? Peter actually belonged to the House of Holstein-Gottorps and just kept the Romanov name. I heard the Almanac de Gotha refused have listed them as the house of Romanov, but my memory might be playing tricks on me.

Rats! Then we have to collect the DNA from Peter to compare with Paul's because Peter at least was related to Elizabeth and if she was the last Romanov . . .

What say you, Russo dear.

 

[Russophile]

Rats! Then we have to collect the DNA from Peter to compare with Paul's because Peter at least was related to Elizabeth and if she was the last Romanov . . .

What say you, Russo dear.

I say we rob Peter to confirm Paul.

 

[AGRBear]

No one knows, accept of course Catherine II, who the father was of Paul I, and, she never told.

If she did, it would still be in doubt.

The DNA used to prove DNA for the 4 offsprings of Nicholas II and Alexandra was the use of DNA from the two remains believed to be Nicholas II and Alexandra found in the graves near Ekaterinburg. To go back any farther, we can only follow the female lineage. Daughter to mother to grandmother to great grandmother back to the Seven Eves discovered and written about by Skye.

To prove Nicholas II's DNA, one had to find a link to his mother's female line. In this case, his brother George's remains was used, also.

I don't believe Catherine II had any daughters by Peter III. I don't recall at the moment, did she have any daughters outside of her marriage to Peter III who survived to adulthood who had daughters who had daughters..... so we could trace Catherine II's DNA lineage?

AGRBear

 

[Dralcoffin]

Intriguingly, according to the Russian version of Wikipedia Catherine did have an illegitimate daughter who had children of her own:

Elizaveta Grigor'yevna Tyomkina (whose father was Grigory Orlov), who married General Ivan Khristoforovich Kalageorgi, and had four sons and six daughters! Sadly, the article doesn't go into any more detail about these grandchildren.

The Russian article on Elizaveta: Тёмкина, Елизавета Григорьевна — Википедия (The URL is like that because of the Cyrillic title)

Her husband: Калагеорги, Иван Христофорович — Википедия

A picture of Elizaveta

 

[Dralcoffin]

Also, for kicks:

Grigory Orlov

Paul I

Peter III

 

[Al_bina]

Speaking of Catherine II's illegitimate children, we should not forget Count Aleksey Bobrinsky.
Bobrinsky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia