The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #161  
Old 08-08-2018, 06:04 AM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 5,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarlita View Post

But i do not know where an Archduchess ranks. Just below a Grandduchess i think.
For some the rankings are very important. Heirachy is very important among some royals certainly those from Dagmars generation.

I would msay an Archduchess and a Grand Dcuhess have the same reank. Both whee mebers iof imperial Families and as difference all female members of the austrian imperial Family where Archduchesses whereas in Russia it where in Russia it was limited.
__________________

__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #162  
Old 08-22-2019, 03:00 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Queen Victoria disagreed with that one insisting that the Crown Princess aka HRH The Princess of Wales took precedence ahead of the Grand Duchess Marie who was only married to the second son. Victoria was adamant that the wife of the heir to the throne took precedence over all the Grand Duchesses.

From Hansard 25 March 1881 it is interesting that the British parliamentary motion of condolence on the death of her father was entitled to:

HRIH The Duchess of Edinburgh

& not HIRH The Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna. Duchess of Edinburgh
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #163  
Old 08-22-2019, 04:15 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
From Hansard 25 March 1881 it is interesting that the British parliamentary motion of condolence on the death of her father was entitled to:

HRIH The Duchess of Edinburgh

& not HIRH The Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna. Duchess of Edinburgh
Being addressed with her husband's title is as expected in the European context, but the choice of HRIH as opposed to HIRH is interesting. I wonder which was normally used in marriages like these.
Reply With Quote
  #164  
Old 08-22-2019, 05:22 PM
lucien's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 7,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Being addressed with her husband's title is as expected in the European context, but the choice of HRIH as opposed to HIRH is interesting. I wonder which was normally used in marriages like these.
Being addressed like this by her husbands title is what Brits do,no other European house except the non-Reigning perhaps.All other Houses name one by their name.

And,the HR came before the IH due to her marriage to a HRH.
Reply With Quote
  #165  
Old 08-22-2019, 05:24 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,704
But Imperial wasn't used in the context of British Royal stylings was it, except in the context of Queen Victoria as Empress of India, where she signed documents Victoria RI? Perhaps, as with the precedence row with the Prss of Wales, Queen Victoria had insisted that Marie's British styling should come first in the CC and therefore Hansard followed.
Reply With Quote
  #166  
Old 08-22-2019, 05:31 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Being addressed with her husband's title is as expected in the European context, but the choice of HRIH as opposed to HIRH is interesting. I wonder which was normally used in marriages like these.
I suspect in other examples of imperial Russian princesses marrying into royal houses the title would be HIRH to denote the I outranking the R.

British royalty of course is very different. It was always the Queen-Empress / King-Emperor, not the other way round, when British monarchs were emperors of India.

The title of emperor has always sounded a bit suspect to British ways of thinking. Emperor was felt to be a foreign, un-british title, more suited to upstarts like Napoleon or associated with despotic rulers like Russian Tsars or Chinese Emperors.

Victoria was mocked for accepting the new outlandish title Empress of India & her own grandfather King George III had flat out refused to accept the title Emperor of the British Isles.
Reply With Quote
  #167  
Old 08-22-2019, 06:34 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucien View Post
Being addressed like this by her husbands title is what Brits do,no other European house except the non-Reigning perhaps.All other Houses name one by their name.
Actually, several of the reigning European houses continue to address a princess whose husband uses a royal title with her husband's title:

Princess Caroline of Monaco is addressed as the Princess of Hanover.
Princesses Marie-Astrid and Margaretha of Luxembourg are addressed as Archduchess Marie-Astrid of Austria and Princess Margaretha of Liechtenstein.
Princess Barbara of Liechtenstein is addressed as Princess Barbara of Yugoslavia.

By way of contrast:

Princess Astrid of Belgium is addressed with her own title and not as Archduchess Astrid of Austria-Este.
Princess Benedikte of Denmark is addressed with her own title and not as Princess Benedikte of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg.
Princess Birgitta of Sweden is addressed with her own title and not as Princess Birgitta of Hohenzollern.

However, things have changed over the last century and a half. The Belgian, Danish, and Swedish princesses of the 19th century who married foreign princes were addressed with their husbands' titles.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
I suspect in other examples of imperial Russian princesses marrying into royal houses the title would be HIRH to denote the I outranking the R.

British royalty of course is very different. It was always the Queen-Empress / King-Emperor, not the other way round, when British monarchs were emperors of India.

The title of emperor has always sounded a bit suspect to British ways of thinking. Emperor was felt to be a foreign, un-british title, more suited to upstarts like Napoleon or associated with despotic rulers like Russian Tsars or Chinese Emperors.

Victoria was mocked for accepting the new outlandish title Empress of India & her own grandfather King George III had flat out refused to accept the title Emperor of the British Isles.
Interesting. I wonder what they thought of the popular use of the term "British empire".
Reply With Quote
  #168  
Old 08-22-2019, 06:55 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Interesting. I wonder what they thought of the popular use of the term "British empire".
Me too. Sounds a bit demeaning towards the indian title. Like: An english Queen is so much more, than an indian Empress...
Reply With Quote
  #169  
Old 08-22-2019, 07:21 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,704
I have read that Queen Victoria was anxious that she should not be eventually outranked by her own daughter Vicky and son in law Fritz after Wilhelm I became German Emperor in 1871. She certainly took a great interest in the passage of the Royal Titles Act.

Another viewpoint on the title Empress of India. Victoria had already adopted it!

https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._India_1837-61
Reply With Quote
  #170  
Old 08-22-2019, 07:32 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
Me too. Sounds a bit demeaning towards the indian title. Like: An english Queen is so much more, than an indian Empress...
I think the point of those who lampooned Victoria's new title - there's a famous Punch magazine cartoon called new crowns for old - was that the title king/queen was more than good enough for Victoria. The Conservative prime minster Disraeli was an avowed imperialist who wanted to flatter Victoria. His great liberal rival Gladstone wouldn't have touched that title with a barge pole.

No British monarch, whatever the size of their empire, needed another title particularly one that sounded so alien & foreign to British ears.

As I said the word emperor (caesar, tsar, kaiser etc) has a lot of negative connotations in Britain that maybe it just doesn't have elsewhere in Europe.

Victoria's grandfather George III wanted to stick with the historical title of king because he felt it was a noble title of great lineage & in no way a lesser title to that of any emperor.

Victoria's concern about her status vis a vis Vicky seems odd considering that the British monarch was already recognised in law as rex in regno suo est imperator (an emperor in his own land).
Reply With Quote
  #171  
Old 08-22-2019, 10:13 PM
CyrilVladisla's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Conneaut, United States
Posts: 6,228
It was interesting to learn that King George III had been presented with the possibility of using the title of Emperor of the British Isles.
Reply With Quote
  #172  
Old 08-22-2019, 11:25 PM
Tarlita's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Near Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 2,138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Queen Victoria disagreed with that one insisting that the Crown Princess aka HRH The Princess of Wales took precedence ahead of the Grand Duchess Marie who was only married to the second son. Victoria was adamant that the wife of the heir to the throne took precedence over all the Grand Duchesses.

Yes I remember reading about Grand Duchess Marie insisting on outranking the Princess of Wales. The arguments with Queen Victoria must have been interesting at the time.
Reply With Quote
  #173  
Old 08-23-2019, 12:04 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,704
In my biography of Prince Alfred by John Van Der Kiste there are references to the debates about Marie's styling and precedence. He writes 'the Tsar wished his daughter to be styled Imperial not Royal, 'as in all civilised countries' to which the not yet Imperial Queen indignantly retorted that she did not mind whether her daughter in law was called Imperial or not, so long as Royal came first..'

Then there were debates as to which of Marie's titles should come first. 'Should she be Grand Duchess of Russia or Duchess of Edinburgh? The Queen felt out of her depth and referred it to her Private Secretary Ponsonby. He was amused by the fuss and quoted Dr Johnson to his wife. 'Who comes first, a louse or a flea?'
Reply With Quote
  #174  
Old 08-23-2019, 03:17 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
It was interesting to learn that King George III had been presented with the possibility of using the title of Emperor of the British Isles.
Poor old George never got a good press.

On this though he was absolutely right. There was no way British people would have wanted their monarch to have the same title as Bonaparte or the "Autocrat of All the Russias".

Emperors were despots.

Ironically off course poor old George has gone down in US history as the tyrant
Reply With Quote
  #175  
Old 08-23-2019, 03:25 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
In my biography of Prince Alfred by John Van Der Kiste there are references to the debates about Marie's styling and precedence. He writes 'the Tsar wished his daughter to be styled Imperial not Royal, 'as in all civilised countries' to which the not yet Imperial Queen indignantly retorted that she did not mind whether her daughter in law was called Imperial or not, so long as Royal came first..'

Then there were debates as to which of Marie's titles should come first. 'Should she be Grand Duchess of Russia or Duchess of Edinburgh. The Queen felt out of her depth and referred it to her Private Secretary Ponsonby. He was amused by the fuss and quoted Dr Johnson to his wife. 'Who comes first, a louse or a flea?'
What a wonderful quote.

I sometimes wonder from what I know of Marie whether she was secretly obsessed with status because in her heart of hearts she felt inadequate. After all her mother in law's empire was three times the size of her father's.
Reply With Quote
  #176  
Old 08-23-2019, 04:55 PM
lucien's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 7,055
This thread is about Tsar Alexander III,Sasha,not "a show of look what I know" that has nothing,not in the least,to do with Alexander III.Spasibo.
Reply With Quote
  #177  
Old 08-23-2019, 05:12 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Northamptonshire, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucien View Post
This thread is about Tsar Alexander III,Sasha,not "a show of look what I know" that has nothing,not in the least,to do with Alexander III.Spasibo.
I'm sorry that you were unable to phrase this in a rather more courteous manner however I take your point & will not post here again.
Reply With Quote
  #178  
Old 10-15-2019, 02:38 PM
duchessrachel's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Birmingham, United States
Posts: 1,036
I want to read the book "Tsar Alexander III: His Life and Reign" by Margarita Nelipa, but I can only find one copy and it is $74.95, and used. Does anyone know where I can get this book cheaper? I have looked at abebooks.com and thriftbooks.com and they don't have it. Why is it so expensive?
Reply With Quote
  #179  
Old 10-15-2019, 03:25 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 544
Quote:
Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
I want to read the book "Tsar Alexander III: His Life and Reign" by Margarita Nelipa"..."Why is it so expensive?

Hi Duchess Rachel!

I have looked for it and the problem seems to be, that there is no e-book of it. And nothing in Libraries... I found nothing!

This here is expensive too, albeit a bit cheaper:
Nelipa, Margarita - Alexander III; his life and reign, van Hoogstraten Online Shop
Reply With Quote
  #180  
Old 10-15-2019, 03:51 PM
duchessrachel's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Birmingham, United States
Posts: 1,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
Hi Duchess Rachel!

I have looked for it and the problem seems to be, that there is no e-book of it. And nothing in Libraries... I found nothing!

This here is expensive too, albeit a bit cheaper:
Nelipa, Margarita - Alexander III; his life and reign, van Hoogstraten Online Shop
Thank you so much!
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
alexander iii, dagmar, empress marie feodorovna, tsar alexander iii


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Emperor Napoleon I (1769-1821) and Wives (Empress Josephine and Empress Marie-Louise) Toledo The Imperial House of Bonaparte 74 10-16-2020 04:12 AM
Tsar Alexander II (1818-1881) and Empress Maria Alexandrovna (1824-1880) TOMMIX The Imperial Family of Russia 53 11-07-2018 07:51 PM
Tsarevitch Nicholas (Nixa) (1843-1865), the first fiancé of Marie Feodorovna ysbel The Imperial Family of Russia 28 11-02-2018 02:03 PM
Tsar Alexander I (1777-1825) and Empress Elisaveta Alexeievna (1779-1826) Marengo The Imperial Family of Russia 24 09-24-2018 01:56 PM
Reburial of Empress Marie Feodorovna: 23-28 September 2006 Dennism The Imperial Family of Russia 220 10-02-2011 12:40 AM




Popular Tags
#royalrelatives #royalgenes abu dhabi american history anastasia 2020 armstrong-jones baby names british royal family buckingham palace canada carolin cht coronavirus cpr duchess of sussex duke of cambridge duke of sussex earl of snowdon elizabeth ii emperor family tree general news thread george vi gradenigo haakon vii hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume history hochberg hypothetical monarchs interesting introduction jewellery jewelry jumma kids movie list of rulers maxima mountbatten names nepal nepalese royal family pless prince harry princess alexia (2005 -) princess chulabhorn princess dita princess elizabeth princess eugenie princess laurentien princess of orange queen louise queen maud resusci anne royal balls royal events royal family royal jewels royal spouse royalty royalty of taiwan royal wedding russian court dress settings spain stuart thailand thai royal family videos von hofmannsthal wedding gown


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:40 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×