Suitors and possible matches for the daughters of Nicholas II

[CyrilVladisla]

Russian grand duchesses and princesses had been allowed to marry into both the Leuchtenberg, Yusupov and Bagration families before so a marriage to a Battenberg can't be completely discarded. Especially not with Louis who was very closely related to the imperial family.
The main reason for the imperial couple to refuse a marriage between Maria and Louis would have been that they where first cousins and as such not allowed to marry by the Orthodox Church.


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The romance between Grand Duchess Marie and Louis Mountbatten

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I doubt that a Mountbatten match would ever happen, except only in Louis Mountbatten’s dreams. All of Nicholas II male family members who were exiled and not given chances to have their marriages recognised would point out his hypocrisy for allowing the marriage. If only they didn’t try to keep their daughters close to home too much, the girls would have survived. I’m sure some of the Protestant German houses and the Serbian maybe Montenegrin royals would have been considered, or worst case scenario (which would be good IMO) would be the girls marrying well respected Russian aristocrat with the wealth to match.

 

[Curryong]

Lord Louis and a Tsar’s daughte? I think not, however well bred he was on his mother’s side of the family. But after 1914 German Royal Houses would have been out as Russia and Germany were at war. In a way it’s a pity that GD Olga and CP Carol of Romania didn’t take a fancy to each other when they met, as, even though he was a nasty piece of work, Olga’s sisters could have reached sanctuary with the Romanian royals and survived the war.

I agree a wealthy Russian aristocrat with a bit of Romanov blood would have been ideal, but would they have been able to leave Russia with their wealth intact before the Revolution? Doubtful imo, unless they had settled in the South of France or similar before the war.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Lord Louis and a Tsar’s daughte? I think not, however well bred he was on his mother’s side of the family. But after 1914 German Royal Houses would have been out as Russia and Germany were at war. In a way it’s a pity that GD Olga and CP Carol of Romania didn’t take a fancy to each other when they met, as, even though he was a nasty piece of work, Olga’s sisters could have reached sanctuary with the Romanian royals and survived the war.

I agree a wealthy Russian aristocrat with a bit of Romanov blood would have been ideal, but would they have been able to leave Russia with their wealth intact before the Revolution? Doubtful imo, unless they had settled in the South of France or similar before the war.

Don’t forget that his ancestress, Julia Hauke was no aristocrat, but the daughter of a secratry so middle class. Plus they followed the Germanic style of equal marriages for the most part. The Yusupovs and a few other smart Russian aristocrats did leave for France and had homes there and took whatever valuables they could.

 

[Curryong]

Yes, but Julia’s father was a distinguished Polish General who later became a Count under Tsar Nicholas I.
I do think that Nicholas II’s family were extremely close and none of the daughters really wished to leave Russia, so Aristocrats would have been ideal. One suitor from that class who wished to marry Olga had been disapproved of by the Tsarina as being debauched though, so perhaps a Serbian Prince? Were any suitable Balkan Princes besides Carol of the right age, though? And after the war broke out the older daughters just seemed to wish to stay in Russia together and assist in hospitals etc.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Yes, but Julia’s father was a distinguished Polish General who later became a Count under Tsar Nicholas I.
I do think that Nicholas II’s family were extremely close and none of the daughters really wished to leave Russia, so Aristocrats would have been ideal. One suitor from that class who wished to marry Olga had been disapproved of by the Tsarina as being debauched though, so perhaps a Serbian Prince? Were any suitable Balkan Princes besides Carol of the right age, though? And after the war broke out the older daughters just seemed to wish to stay in Russia together and assist in hospitals etc.

Yes, but they weren’t noble until after 1800, which was too recent for nobility. There were Serbian Princes and they could have just married Russian aristocrats or junior Princes from other ruling houses

 

[Granada]

Lets not forget too that Nicholas's own Grandmother Tsarina Marie, born a Princess of Hesse, is actually believed NOT to have been the daughter of Grand Duke of Hesse, but instead of The Stable Master. But The Grand Duke legally and publicly recognized her as his own.

Alexander ll, then Tsarevitch WAS well aware of the (loud) whispers about her true parentage, but decided She was the one upon meeting her during travels and married her when she was 16 (!) .

So I have always thought it funny how The Romanov Family of Alexander ll's descendants were so concerned about "imperial or royal" bloodlines, when most likely their OWN immediate ancestor was a Stable Master.

 

[Alison H]

The story goes that Lord Mountbatten kept her picture for the rest of his life. He was a great-grandson of Queen Victoria, but I suppose the Battenbergs might not have been considered suitable for a Grand Duchess. And the marriage between first cousins wouldn't have been allowed anyway. Maria's uncle, Grand Duke Michael, supposedly had a romance with Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh/Saxe-Coburg, who was definitely high enough ranked, but it was no go because they were first cousins.

 

[Prinsara]

Lets not forget too that Nicholas's own Grandmother Tsarina Marie, born a Princess of Hesse, is actually believed NOT to have been the daughter of Grand Duke of Hesse, but instead of The Stable Master. But The Grand Duke legally and publicly recognized her as his own.

Alexander ll, then Tsarevitch WAS well aware of the (loud) whispers about her true parentage, but decided She was the one upon meeting her during travels and married her when she was 16 (!) .

So I have always thought it funny how The Romanov Family of Alexander ll's descendants were so concerned about "imperial or royal" bloodlines, when most likely their OWN immediate ancestor was a Stable Master.

Yes, the court chamberlain (I think he was) was also the Battenberg ancestor due to Marie's brother. I think Dickie Mountbatten preferred overlooking this as well.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

Princess Victoria Melita married her first cousin Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich of Russia. Did they marry outside of the church because they were first cousins?

 

[Prinsara]

Princess Victoria Melita married her first cousin Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich of Russia. Did they marry outside of the church because they were first cousins?

Her mother had to twist someone's arm to find someone who would marry them, but I forget whether it was an Orthodox priest or a Protestant official.

They definitely married without the head of the Church's (Nicholas) permission, so they were persona non grata everywhere until he relented.

 

[Stefan]

Lord Louis and a Tsar’s daughte? I think not, however well bred he was on his mother’s side of the family. But after 1914 German Royal Houses would have been out as Russia and Germany were at war. In a way it’s a pity that GD Olga and CP Carol of Romania didn’t take a fancy to each other when they met, as, even though he was a nasty piece of work, Olga’s sisters could have reached sanctuary with the Romanian royals and survived the war.

Let's not forgot that Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaievna, the oldest daughter of Tsar Nikolaus I. married the duke of Leuchtenberg

 

[Granada]

I honestly would have been amazed if OTMA would have been actually allowed to marry ANY of The British, German, Greek, Scandinavian or Romanian Heirs, had WW l not happened.

They were ALL aware of Alexandra's son, and her sister Irene's two sons being afflicted. They also were well aware of poor Queen Victoria Ena in Spain, two of her sons, the Heir and younger son both had it.

I honestly don't think the girls would have gotten ANYWHERE near a Throne.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Lets not forget too that Nicholas's own Grandmother Tsarina Marie, born a Princess of Hesse, is actually believed NOT to have been the daughter of Grand Duke of Hesse, but instead of The Stable Master. But The Grand Duke legally and publicly recognized her as his own.

Alexander ll, then Tsarevitch WAS well aware of the (loud) whispers about her true parentage, but decided She was the one upon meeting her during travels and married her when she was 16 (!) .

So I have always thought it funny how The Romanov Family of Alexander ll's descendants were so concerned about "imperial or royal" bloodlines, when most likely their OWN immediate ancestor was a Stable Master.

But honestly it’s disputed, no one really knows if the children were the product of an affair or were in wedlock. Anything is possible

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Let's not forgot that Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaievna, the oldest daughter of Tsar Nikolaus I. married the duke of Leuchtenberg

But the Leuchtenbergs were from the nobility and made good marriages and the match was possible because of Napoleon’s influence

 

[Alison H]

I honestly would have been amazed if OTMA would have been actually allowed to marry ANY of The British, German, Greek, Scandinavian or Romanian Heirs, had WW l not happened.

They were ALL aware of Alexandra's son, and her sister Irene's two sons being afflicted. They also were well aware of poor Queen Victoria Ena in Spain, two of her sons, the Heir and younger son both had it.

I honestly don't think the girls would have gotten ANYWHERE near a Throne.

It's quite surprising that Ena was allowed to marry a king, given that two of her brothers had haemophilia. They must surely have realised by then that it was something that ran in the family. I think I've read that the subject was raised and that the courtiers in Spain would have preferred Princess Patricia of Connaught, or preferably a princess who'd been raised Catholic, but the marriage went ahead.

 

[Granada]

Alison H, great point !
Fom what I have read Alfonso was warned, but he brushed aside all questions. Would not be deterred. I'm sure that he would have been, by then, aware of Tsarevitch Alexis hemophilia condition. AND as well as you mention, Ena's OWN family history.

Tsarevitch Alexis was born in August 1904, Ena and Alfonso married in May 1906. Her cousin's Irene of Hesse's son, Prince Henry, died from a minor fall from a chair in 1904.

One of my favorite books is "Born To Rule" about Queen Victoria's Granddaughter's who reigned as Consorts. Alexandra in Russia, Sophie in Greece, Ena in Spain, Maude in Norway and of course..... drum roll.....Marie in Romania. ( a fav of mine) . Highly recommend !

Poor Ena, in a very hostile Court in Spain. A bully and blaming jerk husband , who flaunted affairs. Unending worries about with two sons with hemophilia, another son, Jaime unbelievably became deaf, I think after a botched operation.

All that glitters is not gold indeed.....

 

[Stefan]

But the Leuchtenbergs were from the nobility and made good marriages and the match was possible because of Napoleon’s influence

When the Leuchtenberg marriage took place Napoleon was long gone. And the Battenberg's has also made good matches by the time of WWI.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

When the Leuchtenberg marriage took place Napoleon was long gone. And the Battenberg's has also made good matches by the time of WWI.

My point was that they were well integrated in Russia because of their association with Napoleon and after he was gone, they continued to marry well. Apart from Louise Battenberg to the King of Sweden, Queen Ena to King Alfonso. Also, some royals questioned the marital alliances before the matches took place.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

My point was that they were well integrated in Russia because of their association with Napoleon and after he was gone, they continued to marry well. Apart from Louise Battenberg to the King of Sweden, Queen Ena to King Alfonso. Also, some royals questioned the marital alliances before the matches took place.

During Napoleon's reign as Emperor of the French, the future Leuchtenbergs were not only associated with him, but formal members of the French imperial family (the future first Duke of Leuchtenberg was the emperor's adoptive son and the house laws recognized him as a prince of the French imperial family).

In any case, your original point was that Prince Louis of Battenberg would never have been allowed to marry a Russian grand duchess. Stefan's counterexample strongly suggests the opposite.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

During Napoleon's reign as Emperor of the French, the future Leuchtenbergs were not only associated with him, but formal members of the French imperial family (the future first Duke of Leuchtenberg was the emperor's adoptive son and the house laws recognized him as a prince of the French imperial family).

In any case, your original point was that Prince Louis of Battenberg would never have been allowed to marry a Russian grand duchess. Stefan's counterexample strongly suggests the opposite.

The Leutchenbergs were nobles long before being associated with Napoleon. The Russians accepted the Leutchenbergs because at one point they were allied to Napoleon, under typical circumstances, a better match to a sovereign German Protestant House would be the usual route.

Adopting the Leutchenbergs was just a way of using them to integrate and influence. Also, the Battenbergs were the product of a morganatic union and were impoverished.

Nicholas II would be a hypocrite to accept this hypothetical match when he exiled and castigated other male members for marrying those deemed as socially unsuitable for marriage.
Who and what one Royal House deems as socially acceptable for marriage is down to the respective royal houses, one house can deem a particular royal spouse as unsuitable, others may deem that person as suitable. Also there might be a particular reason/circumstance (rare) for a particular royal head to accept a spouse traditionally as not a good match, but accept them.

I think most people would agree that the Leutchenbergs would be a better match socially than the Battenbergs whose first member was the daughter of a general whose ancestors were middle class.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

During Napoleon's reign as Emperor of the French, the future Leuchtenbergs were not only associated with him, but formal members of the French imperial family (the future first Duke of Leuchtenberg was the emperor's adoptive son and the house laws recognized him as a prince of the French imperial family).

The Leutchenbergs were nobles long before being associated with Napoleon. The Russians accepted the Leutchenbergs because at one point they were allied to Napoleon, under typical circumstances, a better match to a sovereign German Protestant House would be the usual route.

That does not alter my point that the future Leuchtenbergs were members of the French imperial family and members of Napoleon's immediate family, not merely "associated" and "allied" with him.

Adopting the Leutchenbergs was just a way of using them to integrate and influence. Also, the Battenbergs were the product of a morganatic union and were impoverished.

But once more, your argument was about Prince Louis of Battenberg versus Prince Maximilian of Leuchtenberg. So, are you stating that Louis was uninfluential and impoverished compared to Maximilian?

Who and what one Royal House deems as socially acceptable for marriage is down to the respective royal houses, one house can deem a particular royal spouse as unsuitable, others may deem that person as suitable.

I fully agree. In many debates, including parts of the current one, you have appeared to be arguing the opposite, so it is nice if you have reconsidered.

 

[Daniel Corston]

The Russian born and raised Duke Georg of Mecklenburg (1899-1963) (born Count of Carlow), who was a member of the Russian branch of Mecklenburg's and so close to the Imperial Family, talks about his childhood romantic feelings for Grand Duchess Anastasia in his memoir about his early life in Russia, Meine Erinnerungen an Rußland 1899 - 1917.

Extracts below (machine translated into English from German)

I paid a lot of attention to the youngest daughter of the imperial couple, the Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolajevna. She was not very pretty, but had a colossally lively and expressive face and her eyes were extremely mobile with a very humorous and mischievous expression. You could see that she understood everything very quickly and saw it from the humorous side. This feeling grew within me in a very short time into a really serious one and had a far-reaching influence on my entire development. I imagined that one could get engaged at such a young age, as I had read in a biography of Henry IV of France that he was engaged to Marguerite de Valois when he was 8 or 10 years old. I heard a lot of talk about how the Emperor and Empress often talked about how difficult it would be for them to marry their daughters abroad and to be separated from them. At the beginning of 1914, one of the emperor's nieces, the daughter of his sister, the Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna and the Grand Duke Alexander Michailovic, was to marry Prince Yusupov. In terms of age, I was only two years older than the little Grand Duchess. I said to myself, I was 14 years old, why shouldn't such an engagement be possible when Henry IV was already engaged when he was 8 or 10? And now something began that might seem crazy at first glance, but in reality became the beginning of my prayer life. I prayed intensively for this fantastic engagement to come about, systematically with almost physical effort.
………………
I usually left Petersburg by train around three o'clock and was in Carskoye after half an hour. A cozy tea awaited me and sometimes Ssandik there until it was finally time to go to the Imperial Cathedral for the evening service. There we stood in the low choirs, in a kind of box. In the middle of the church stood the Cossacks of the escort and the soldiers. Next to us stood various personalities of the entourage, such as Generals Komarov and Vojeykov, who was the palace commander at the time. The emperor arrived almost unnoticed from a side door and positioned himself to the right (from the epistle side) of the central gate of the iconostasis. The Empress stood more to the right and could not be seen. During the service, the little Grand Duchess turned around very often, which from time to time provoked comments from her older sisters.
…………………
At the end of the service the emperor came out from his place in the middle to kiss the cross. He was followed by the Empress and then her daughters. When it was Anastasia Nikolajevna's turn, she looked at me very quickly, so one of her sisters pushed her so that she could get to the cross more quickly. Then they all got into a car and drove straight to the train station.

 

[Countessmeout]

That does not alter my point that the future Leuchtenbergs were members of the French imperial family and members of Napoleon's immediate family, not merely "associated" and "allied" with him.



But once more, your argument was about Prince Louis of Battenberg versus Prince Maximilian of Leuchtenberg. So, are you stating that Louis was uninfluential and impoverished compared to Maximilian?



I fully agree. In many debates, including parts of the current one, you have appeared to be arguing the opposite, so it is nice if you have reconsidered.

Not sure why Maximillien is being brought into the debate. He is not related to the French connected Leuchtenbergs.

Maximillien yes was high born, the younger son of the Elector of Bavaria, and his mother was an Austrian Archduchess. But he died childless and his duchy was absorbed once again.

The Leuchtenberg line that married into the Swedish royal house etc is not connected to Maximillian. Yes they had noble blood but far more minor, and would have been considered a morgantic marriage without Napoleon. If his mother had not married the French emperor, Eugene would have simply been the son of a minor Viscount.

By any marriage that considers marriage to the nobility to be morgantic aka the Russians, neither the Battenbergs nor the Leuchtenbergs would have been acceptable on any front.

Louis' father certainly was. Louis' Aunt was the wife of Alexander II. But his marriage to Louis' mother made Louis and his siblings unacceptable for an equal marriage.No matter how much wealth or influence they could build up, they could not over ride their lack of royal status. Fortunately for Philip, the Brits did not have rules about morgantic marriages.

 

[Gawin]

Not sure why Maximillien is being brought into the debate. He is not related to the French connected Leuchtenbergs.

Maximillien yes was high born, the younger son of the Elector of Bavaria, and his mother was an Austrian Archduchess. But he died childless and his duchy was absorbed once again.

The Leuchtenberg line that married into the Swedish royal house etc is not connected to Maximillian. Yes they had noble blood but far more minor, and would have been considered a morgantic marriage without Napoleon. If his mother had not married the French emperor, Eugene would have simply been the son of a minor Viscount.

By any marriage that considers marriage to the nobility to be morgantic aka the Russians, neither the Battenbergs nor the Leuchtenbergs would have been acceptable on any front.

Louis' father certainly was. Louis' Aunt was the wife of Alexander II. But his marriage to Louis' mother made Louis and his siblings unacceptable for an equal marriage.No matter how much wealth or influence they could build up, they could not over ride their lack of royal status. Fortunately for Philip, the Brits did not have rules about morgantic marriages.

The Maximilien of Leuchtenberg under discussion was Maximilien 3rd Duke of Leuchtenberg (1817-1852) who was the son of Eugene de Beauharnais 1st Duke of Leuchtenberg and the grandson of Napoleon Bonaparte's first wife Josephine. In 1839 he married Grand Duchess Maria of Russia, the daughter of Emperor Nicholas I.

The Maximilian of Leuchtenberg I believe you are referring to was Maximilian of Bavaria Duke of Leuchtenberg (1638-1705), the son of Elector Maximilian I of Bavaria and wife Maria Anna of Austria.

The two Maximilians were distantly related, through the younger Maximilian's maternal grandfather (and namesake) King Maximilian I of Bavaria.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Not sure why Maximillien is being brought into the debate.

If you read the lengthy debate from the beginning it will be probably become clearer to see how first "the Leuchtenbergs" and then Maximilian personally were brought into it. The discussion begins here:

Did Prince Louis of Battenburg have the correct qualifications to marry an Imperial Grand Duchess of Russia?

Maximilian was first mentioned here:

Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaievna, oldest daughter of Emperor Nicholas I. married Maximilian, Duke of Leuchtenberg.

He is not related to the French connected Leuchtenbergs.

Maximillien yes was high born, the younger son of the Elector of Bavaria, and his mother was an Austrian Archduchess. But he died childless and his duchy was absorbed once again.

The Leuchtenberg line that married into the Swedish royal house etc is not connected to Maximillian.

Perhaps you are thinking of another Maximilian. Duke Maximilian of Leuchtenberg was the son of the former Prince Eugène Napoléon of the French and his wife Princess Auguste of Bavaria. Maximilian married the Russian Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaievna, and they had a number of children together. His sister Josephine married the future King Oscar I of Sweden and Norway.

Yes they had noble blood but far more minor, and would have been considered a morgantic marriage without Napoleon. If his mother had not married the French emperor, Eugene would have simply been the son of a minor Viscount.

By any marriage that considers marriage to the nobility to be morgantic aka the Russians, neither the Battenbergs nor the Leuchtenbergs would have been acceptable on any front.

Nevertheless, Eugène's mother did marry the French emperor, who did adopt him and create him an imperial prince. And Duke Maximilian of Leuchtenberg's marriage to Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaievna was accepted as dynastic by Emperor Nikolai I, who created Maximilian and his children Imperial Highnesses.