Russian Imperial and Other Titles

[ysbel]

Thanks Al_bina. I've updated the list above.

If anyone has the Russian terms for any of the other Russian titles, just post them here and I will update the list.

The Russian language can be quite confusing to the rest of us.

[Madame Royale]

Grand Duke - Великий Князь

Grand Duchess - Великая Княгиня or Великая Княжна

[ysbel]

Thanks Madame Royale. I will update the list. Do you have the Western alphabet spelling of the Russian words? If you don't, I think I may have a Russian-English dictionary that maps the Russian and Western alphabets together.

[Madame Royale]

Великий Князь - Velikiy Knyaz - Grand Duke

Великая Княгиня - Velikaia Kniaginia

Великая Княжна - Velikaia Knazhna

The daughters and male line granddaughters of the Tsar, and the wife of a Russian Grand Duke.

Usually translated into English and French as Grand Duchess, though the literal definition being Grand Princess.

You're welcome, ysbel.

[ysbel]

Thanks again Madame Royale! The list is getting complete. I think the term Grand Prince is a more literal translation of the Russian term Velikiy Knyaz, is that correct?

[Anna was Franziska]

On the AP, the statuses are Russian titles, and you get a higher Russian title the more posts you get.

[Madame Royale]

Originally Posted by ysbel

Thanks again Madame Royale! The list is getting complete. I think the term Grand Prince is a more literal translation of the Russian term Velikiy Knyaz, is that correct?

That's correct, ysbel.

Sorry I forgot to mention that one...

[Picmajik]

Originally Posted by sofajr

why do you call Alexandra Fedorovna Tzarina? the correct name is Tzaritsa!
and I have to say that Picul is not a reliable sourse as well Radzinsky, they have a lot of fiction in novels.

When I first started reading about the Romanovs in the 70's all translations from Russian to English said Tsar and Tsarina/Czarina. I didn't know it had been revised to be Tsaritsa until recently reading again after finding the Royal Forums and Wikipedia. I don't think that most speakers of English would know the difference unless they were interested in the topic.
I always wanted to learn Russian but that wasn't available in my high school or college in the 70s, it is becoming more common now after the opening of the former Soviet Union.

In Russian was it always Tsaritsa instead of Tsarina? I wouldn't know and I'm wondering how it was mistranslated at first. You would think the British Royal Family would know the difference and insist on correct styling/translation if it were incorrect.

[Al_bina]

In my opinion, the word "Tsaritsa" is not a translation exactly, but rather direct transliteration of the Russian word. This word has been altered to Tsarina/Csarina/Tzarina in the English language.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by Picmajik

When I first started reading about the Romanovs in the 70's all translations from Russian to English said Tsar and Tsarina/Czarina.

The books used to spell it "Czar" most of the time. It took me a long time to take to "Tsar".

I always wanted to learn Russian but that wasn't available in my high school or college in the 70s, it is becoming more common now after the opening of the former Soviet Union.

The year I was moving up from Jr. High to High school, (1976) the high school got a Russian class. My English teacher, who knew I was obsessed with the Romanovs, recommended me for it and told me I'd love it. I took it as an elective, but after school was out I started getting intimidated by the cyrillic alphabet, and like a dummy, walked up to the school and dropped it for- choke- home ec. Yes, I have regretted this over and over, and even more today than then.

Ironically, about 10 of the fifteen people who did take the class that year ended up being very dear friends of mine later- though we didn't know each other at the time! I guess it was destiny that we ended up finding each other anyway, but still it would have been so much fun in there with them, had I only known.

*kicks self for the 1,000th time*

[lexi4]

So how did we get from Czar to Tsar?

[Jikus]

I'd like to make one correction: she was Tsaritsa, but not Tsarina.

[Picmajik]

Originally Posted by Jikus

I'd like to make one correction: she was Tsaritsa, but not Tsarina.

Until recently Tsarina/Czarina has been the traditional translation of her title in English. I had never seen "tsaritsa" until starting reading the Forums last year.
Not sure why it was different but that was the standard.

[Picmajik]

Originally Posted by lexi4

So how did we get from Czar to Tsar?

Since the pronunciation is "zar" I guess it depends on which way to spell it phonetically. At one time one editor may have preferred Czar, another preferred Tsar. I'm not sure which would be closer to the transliteration from the Russian as that is only one character instead of two. I think a similar analogy would be Wade-Giles vs Pinyin transliterations of Chinese but not that drastic.
I know that styles shift in print journalism from time to time as to standardized spellings, cigaret vs cigarette. AP stylebooks (reference guide for print journalists) and dictionaries are upgraded on a regular basis so tomorrow we may end up with yet another spelling for Czar.

Still wish I'd been able to study Russian back when. I can find continuing education classes here in Atlanta (the other Georgia) now but I can't seem to coordinate the time and funds.

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by Jikus

I'd like to make one correction: she was Tsaritsa, but not Tsarina.

Tsarina is commonly used in English.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Jikus

I'd like to make one correction: she was Tsaritsa, but not Tsarina.

Jikus, please don't take this wrong but why does it matter? We all know who and what we're talking about here.

[Al_bina]

Given the debates around the highest female title in Russia, I have contacted my linguistics teacher, who told me the following. Tzaritza or tsaritsa or czaritza should be viewed as a direct transliteration of the Russian word, whereas tzarina or tsarina, or czarina is an alteration of the Russian word most likely influenced by the Latin word “regina”, which means queen. Such situation can be attributed to the complexities of Anglo-Russian language contact (communication filtered through other languages, mainly Latin, German, and French). There can be other reasons as well. For instance “Cosmonaut”is a borrowing of Russian “Kosmonavt”. No one seems to mind about it.

[lexi4]

Thank you Al-bina. I had planned to check it out too. I'm glad you did. Tsarina is commonly used in most books in the U.S. Empress is also used.

[AGRBear]

Now, I'm going to toss into this discussion a different kind of question.

Back in the 1940s, I called Nicholas II neither Tsar or Emperor, but Kaiser. This was because my family, who had migrated to the USA, were German-Russians. So they used the term Kaiser which means Emperor. Although Nicholas II was a Tsar, this title was not used since it was a lesser title than Emperor or Kaiser.

Here in the USA and most of Europe, the Russian Emperors were called Tsars, probably, to make it simpler for newspaper reporters to distinquist between the royals of Europe and Russia.

Myth or Truth: To add to this, Tsar was never spelled "Czar" back before the fall of the Romanovs. It was spelled "Tsar" or "Tzar", only. Those who did use the "C" were Europeans and Americans. This came about because the "Reds", the early revolutionaries, wanted to use the word "tsar" derogatorily so they changed the "t" to "c". Lenin always called Nicholas II "the Czar". Since I don't read Russian, I'm no sure if this is actually true. However, years ago, I read in a book (the name I no longer can recall) which stated this same thing which I'd been told as a child. Perhaps someone in the know can tell us which it is: myth? or "truth".

AGRBear

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

Given the debates around the highest female title in Russia, I have contacted my linguistics teacher, who told me the following. Tzaritza or tsaritsa or czaritza should be viewed as a direct transliteration of the Russian word, whereas tzarina or tsarina, or czarina is an alteration of the Russian word most likely influenced by the Latin word “regina”, which means queen. Such situation can be attributed to the complexities of Anglo-Russian language contact (communication filtered through other languages, mainly Latin, German, and French). There can be other reasons as well. For instance “Cosmonaut”is a borrowing of Russian “Kosmonavt”. No one seems to mind about it.

I like that. Thanks. Even though I think, as Shakespere did it's much ado about nothing!