Russian Imperial and Other Titles

[lexi4]

So how did we get from Czar to Tsar?

 

[Jikus]

I'd like to make one correction: she was Tsaritsa, but not Tsarina.

 

[Picmajik]

traditionally translated as Tsarina in English

I'd like to make one correction: she was Tsaritsa, but not Tsarina.

Until recently Tsarina/Czarina has been the traditional translation of her title in English. I had never seen "tsaritsa" until starting reading the Forums last year.
Not sure why it was different but that was the standard.

 

[Picmajik]

Stylebook changes

So how did we get from Czar to Tsar?

Since the pronunciation is "zar" I guess it depends on which way to spell it phonetically. At one time one editor may have preferred Czar, another preferred Tsar. I'm not sure which would be closer to the transliteration from the Russian as that is only one character instead of two. I think a similar analogy would be Wade-Giles vs Pinyin transliterations of Chinese but not that drastic.
I know that styles shift in print journalism from time to time as to standardized spellings, cigaret vs cigarette. AP stylebooks (reference guide for print journalists) and dictionaries are upgraded on a regular basis so tomorrow we may end up with yet another spelling for Czar.

Still wish I'd been able to study Russian back when. I can find continuing education classes here in Atlanta (the other Georgia) now but I can't seem to coordinate the time and funds.

 

[lexi4]

I'd like to make one correction: she was Tsaritsa, but not Tsarina.

Tsarina is commonly used in English.

 

[Russophile]

I'd like to make one correction: she was Tsaritsa, but not Tsarina.

Jikus, please don't take this wrong but why does it matter? We all know who and what we're talking about here.

 

[Al_bina]

I hope this messsage will put an end to the word controversy ...

Given the debates around the highest female title in Russia, I have contacted my linguistics teacher, who told me the following. Tzaritza or tsaritsa or czaritza should be viewed as a direct transliteration of the Russian word, whereas tzarina or tsarina, or czarina is an alteration of the Russian word most likely influenced by the Latin word “regina”, which means queen. Such situation can be attributed to the complexities of Anglo-Russian language contact (communication filtered through other languages, mainly Latin, German, and French). There can be other reasons as well. For instance “Cosmonaut”is a borrowing of Russian “Kosmonavt”. No one seems to mind about it.

 

[lexi4]

Thank you Al-bina. I had planned to check it out too. I'm glad you did. Tsarina is commonly used in most books in the U.S. Empress is also used.

 

[AGRBear]

Now, I'm going to toss into this discussion a different kind of question.

Back in the 1940s, I called Nicholas II neither Tsar or Emperor, but Kaiser. This was because my family, who had migrated to the USA, were German-Russians. So they used the term Kaiser which means Emperor. Although Nicholas II was a Tsar, this title was not used since it was a lesser title than Emperor or Kaiser.

Here in the USA and most of Europe, the Russian Emperors were called Tsars, probably, to make it simpler for newspaper reporters to distinquist between the royals of Europe and Russia.

Myth or Truth: To add to this, Tsar was never spelled "Czar" back before the fall of the Romanovs. It was spelled "Tsar" or "Tzar", only. Those who did use the "C" were Europeans and Americans. This came about because the "Reds", the early revolutionaries, wanted to use the word "tsar" derogatorily so they changed the "t" to "c". Lenin always called Nicholas II "the Czar". Since I don't read Russian, I'm no sure if this is actually true. However, years ago, I read in a book (the name I no longer can recall) which stated this same thing which I'd been told as a child. Perhaps someone in the know can tell us which it is: myth? or "truth".

AGRBear

 

[Russophile]

Given the debates around the highest female title in Russia, I have contacted my linguistics teacher, who told me the following. Tzaritza or tsaritsa or czaritza should be viewed as a direct transliteration of the Russian word, whereas tzarina or tsarina, or czarina is an alteration of the Russian word most likely influenced by the Latin word “regina”, which means queen. Such situation can be attributed to the complexities of Anglo-Russian language contact (communication filtered through other languages, mainly Latin, German, and French). There can be other reasons as well. For instance “Cosmonaut”is a borrowing of Russian “Kosmonavt”. No one seems to mind about it.

I like that. Thanks. Even though I think, as Shakespere did it's much ado about nothing!

 

[ysbel]

Au contraire! As a foreign language and linguistic major, I think this is fascinating stuff! You're never going to get a linguist to admit that the proper and correct term for something doesn't matter.

Its arcane areas of knowledge such as these that make royalty lovers such an interesting bunch.

We sweat the small stuff, like titles and terms and precedence and we sincerely enjoy the debate about it.

 

[lexi4]

I like that. Thanks. Even though I think, as Shakespere did it's much ado about nothing!

You would Russo. But I agree with you.
Bear, do you remember where you read that about Lenin and Czar? I've always wondered how that happened. That is the first explanation I've heard that makes sense.
Lexi

 

[Russophile]

Au contraire! As a foreign language and linguistic major, I think this is fascinating stuff! You're never going to get a linguist to admit that the proper and correct term for something doesn't matter.

Its arcane areas of knowledge such as these that make royalty lovers such an interesting bunch.

We sweat the small stuff, like titles and terms and precedence and we sincerely enjoy the debate about it.

Well that makes sense. What I was belly aching about was knit-pickery on "It should be said THIS way" No, it should be THAT way. Etc.
But I do like to know where it came from, THAT is interesting!

(Hmmm. Me thinks you know me quite well Lexi! )

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

I think there Russian titles are easy to understand. But, Anastasia's is so hard to get for me. Her name in Russian is pronounced differently.

 

[Count Mospak]

Greetings, I am Count Andrew Mospak of Mangup. I am by far no expert but I hope I can assist you. There can only be one count and countess of an area at one time UNLESS for say a prince creates a count of say NJ and lets say the pope creates a count of NJ and each orthodox Patriarch or head of monastic cities... so now you would have many as there is no longer a czar to control this. To your point, if she marries the eldest son she is infact countess. All younger sons should be viscounts, barons... You simply cannot and donot have numerous counts in the same line at the same time. Warm regards.

 

[chancellor]

The Lastest News on HIH GD Maria of Russia, photo includes the Russian Ambassador and first Secretary accepting the Order of St Anna 2nd and 3rd class respectively, please note her titles in the documentation and wall remberance stonces if you are in doubt


http://russianwelfare.org.au/pdf/imperial.pdf


http://www.riuo.org/SUCCESSION_ENGLISH.pdf


RIUO

Russian Imperial Order Austraila

www.russianball.com.au

 

[Warren]

. All younger sons should be viscounts, barons...

I wasn't aware that the Russian aristocracy had 'viscounts' as this term is usually reserved for the heir of a British earl or marquess.

 

[Count Mospak]

That is a fair statement. we must also look to the points of knighting as well. I had pointed out the numerous ways that one could find a hand full stating that they are the count of a certain area. So, if you were to look up Holy Roman title you will find viscount. If you look into some Orthodox churches you will see some although few still create let alone knight... Please review viscount and this should give the links to explain in detail. Again, I am far from an expert. In the Russian court the son of a count would be known as say Noble Andrew, son of count... I hope I have helped and please, if any have to add I learn new things every day.

 

[Warren]

So, if you were to look up Holy Roman title you will find viscount.

No, you won't. You will find Erbgraf (Hereditary Count) in the same manner as Erbprinz (Hereditary Prince), Erbherzog (Hereditary Duke), etc.

 

[Count Mospak]

I have tried to find a site that would be fairly easy to follow and show titles as they would appear in Russian. I hope this link works and if it does not, simply type under google search russian noble ranks and whik. should list the article with grid box.Warm regards, A en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_and_noble_ranks

 

[GlitteringTiaras]

I did and I found nothing of the sort nor did I find Russian Viscounts. Am I missing something?

 

[Caphia]

A question a little offtopic, why Feodorovna???? I see that all the Tsaritsa's well some of them had that name...

Thanks in advance

 

[Marsel]

Not all of the Russian Empresses bore the patronymic "Feodorovna", only the foreign ones, and not all of them, to that: Catherine the Great, for example, became Catherine (Ekaterina) Alekseyevna upon her inclusion into the Russian Orthodox Church.

As to those who did become "Feodorovna", I believe it became a traditional patronymic for the foreign Princesses who married into the Imperial Family because of the Fyodor Icon of the Mother of God (the Patron and Guardian of the Romanov House - all Russian Monarchs were crowned for the Throne in front of this icon).

 

[Leslie2006]

Not all of the Russian Empresses bore the patronymic "Feodorovna", only the foreign ones, and not all of them, to that: Catherine the Great, for example, became Catherine (Ekaterina) Alekseyevna upon her inclusion into the Russian Orthodox Church.

As to those who did become "Feodorovna", I believe it became a traditional patronymic for the foreign Princesses who married into the Imperial Family because of the Fyodor Icon of the Mother of God (the Patron and Guardian of the Romanov House - all Russian Monarchs were crowned for the Throne in front of this icon).

Very true! Another one was Marie of Hesse, the first wife of Alexander II. She took the name Maria Aleksandrovna. Wilhelmine of Hesse (one of the wives of Paul I) took the name Natalia Alekseievna (his other wife was another Maria Feodorovna)....just to name a few.

 

[branchg]

The name "Feodorovna" was traditionally bestowed on foreign princesses who married a Grand Duke and converted to Orthodoxy prior to marriage (normally a requirement of marrying into the family). The other Grand Duchesses by marriage did not always convert and used their husband's patrionymic (Vladimirovna) as did some Tsarinas.

 

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Is there no formal title to separate a Grand Duchess who is the daughter of a Tsar and a Grand Duchess who is a niece or a cousin?

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

Is there no formal title to separate a Grand Duchess who is the daughter of a Tsar and a Grand Duchess who is a niece or a cousin?

My dear XeniaCasarghi,

I may be wrong, but the only difference is in the style: a Grand Duchess who is the daughter of a Tsar is addressed as Her Imperial Royal Highness Grand Duchess Olga as opposed to Her Royal Highness Grand Duchess Marie, for example. I must confess that I don't know if the Grand Duchess loses her Imperial status upon the passing of the Tsar or not.

 

[MAfan]

As far as I know, all Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses are styled Imperial Highnesses. The only members of the Imperial Family who are differently styled are the Princes of Russia, styled Highnesses.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I stand corrected. Thank you, my dear MAfan.

 

[AristoCat]

An interesting facet of the Russian Nobility, is that they are very lowkey and they do not use their titles as a matter of course in introducing themselves and they also already know who each other are. They don't hang out in Hollywood, they don't live the jet set (to my knowledge) life and they don't use their titles to get jobs or really publicly talk about their family. They are the most secretive family on earth.