Romanovs and the Revolution: What Happened and How Did the Survivors Manage?

[Chubb Fuddler]

The Soviet government officially announced the execution of Emperor Nicholas II about three days after it took place. The New York Times stated that:

There seemingly is no question that yesterday's dispatch is authentic. It comes in the form of a Russian wireless dispatch, and as the wireless plants of Russia are under the control of the Bolsheviki, it appears that it is an official version of the death of the former Emperor.​

Six years later, when it was pretty obvious that neither the Tsesarevich or Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich had survived, Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich assumed the position of Head of the Imperial House. Not exactly a rushed decision. It is irrelevant what other members of the Imperial House thought about Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich. He was right; his cousins were dead and he had succeeded as Head of the Imperial House.

 

[COUNTESS]

There are those in the family that stated that his conduct and marrying Ducky, put him out of the running. I do not care, as it is a fight for nothing. He can be King of the Hill.

 

[Chubb Fuddler]

Succession was governed by the law, and it was according to the law that Grand Duke Kiril Vladimirovich succeeded his cousin. A case can be made that his marriage knocked him out of line of succession. But Emperor Nicholas II recognised the marriage in 1908, and Kilril Vladimirovich was considered third in line to the throne. His public support of the Provincial Government in 1917 may have been in poor taste, but that was not enough to legally exclude him from the line of succession (which, theoretically at least, had some possible purpose until Russia became a republic on 14 September 1917.)

It is hard to find anything particularly admirable about Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich. His actions were often self-serving and ill timed, and he made himself look foolish by assuming the title of Emperor in 1924. But, according to the laws and traditions of the Russian Empire, he was the next in line. I don't know what sort of Emperor he would have made if things had gone differently in 1917/1918. It is hard to imagine a reign more disastrous than Nicholas II's, so maybe he might have been a change for the better. We'll never know.

 

[Baronessan]

Interesting detail - Anna Vyrubova

In her senior years in Finland Anna Vurubova was wearing this black bandeau, which, I just lately learned, was a sign of lady-in-waiting.

 

[Baronessan]

Succession was governed by the law, and it was according to the law that Grand Duke Kiril Vladimirovich succeeded his cousin. A case can be made that his marriage knocked him out of line of succession.

Well, Dagmar's son Nikolai abdicated by himself and behalf of his son when he was still alive. Nikolai was not anymore the Tsar. Nikolai's brother Mikhail refused the crown and was married to a commoner. The fourth in line was Cyril - and it was his status already during Nikolai's reign.
The case is very clear and it was'nt at all in Dagmar's hands or dependant on her likes or dislikes.

Kiril's marriage to Melita was equal - he did not marry a commoner. Well, it was not blessed and negotiated by the tsar, but he accepted it later. Melita's previous marriage with Alexandra's brother Ernst was not blessed by orthodox church thus the marriage could be considered nonvalid (concerning last paragraph I'm freely quoting book Romanovs - Tsarsläkten /Finnish edition page 134 - written by Staffan Scott)

 

[COUNTESS]

Well, Dagmar's son Nikolai abdicated by himself and behalf of his son when he was still alive. Nikolai was not anymore the Tsar. Nikolai's brother Mikhail refused the crown and was married to a commoner. The fourth in line was Cyril - and it was his status already during Nikolai's reign.
The case is very clear and it was'nt at all in Dagmar's hands or dependant on her likes or dislikes.

Of course, not. But Kyril wore and flew the Red Cockcade, putting him in dubious association. That is the family view. I have no objection to him and anyone else who wants to proclaim themselves Tsar of a throne that has been non-existent for close to 100 years.

 

[Baronessan]

Dear Countess,

In my comments it must have been obvious that it is not about the family view but of the Imperial Law.
I think we all are aware that we are discussing this interesting detail in the context of "Non-Reigning Houses".

Yours Sincerely
Baronessan

 

[COUNTESS]

Dear Countess,

In my comments it must have been obvious that it is not about the family view but of the Imperial Law.
I think we all are aware that we are discussing this interesting detail in the context of "Non-Reigning Houses".

Yours Sincerely
Baronessan

Dear Baronessan:

Imperial Law exists when there is an Empire. That has been gone, almost 100 years. I have no dog in this hunt. If it is the Grand Duke's family that should be in the heirs, I have no fight. It is fine with me. But, as I am aware that there are actual Romanovs that would argue this point.

Sincerely,
Countess

 

[Chubb Fuddler]

For someone with no dog in the hunt, there's a lot of barking going on

As Baronessan says, we are all aware that the laws of the Russian Empire ceased to have any legal standing in 1917. But, oddly enough, some people enjoy hypothetical discussions on the premise that such laws are still in place. It's a natural part of our curiosity to ask "what if...?" A forum on "Non Reigning Houses" seems an appropriate place to have such discussions. This has been pointed out to Countess many times, but she comes back time and again to state the bleedin' obvious, in a tone so dismissive that it dampens the enjoyment of other contributors. I don't understand what motivates such wet blanket comments. Comments that also suggest anything but indifference.

 

[Baronessan]

Why Elena Wladirovna was not popular in the Brittish royal family?

I' ve now learned to know that Elena Wladimirovna was not too popular in George V's England, but for example Xenia was. Of course Xenia was Dagmar' s daughter which made Alexandra to be her aunt, and xenia was also a cousin to George. Grand duchess Elena Wladimirovna was the duke of Kent's mother in law - so I would think her almost as family member.
Does somebody know why she was'nt that popular?

 

[Al_bina]

Reburual of Grand Duke Nikolas Nikolaevich and Grand Duchess Anastasia

The remains of Grand Duke Nicholas Romanov and his wife were brought Russia to be re-buried on April, 30. Grand Duke Nicholas was paid military honours in accordance with his rank.

 

[Al_bina]

The ceremony of the re-burial of Grand Duke Nicholas and his spouse // NTV.Ru

Reburial of Grand Duke Nicholas and his wife | Tengrinews.kz

Prince Dimitri Romanov, his wife, Mayor of Moscow, and The Patriarch of Moscow and all Rus Kirill I were among the attendees.

 

[Thumbahlina]

The remains have long since been tested, identified and distinguished to the best of scientific capabilities, according to what I've read and there were no surviving Romanov's to carry that hereditary forward. Besides, the Russian people didn't want royalty and much like the French, did away with the royalty that was around years ago. The Rurik Dynasty has been gone since the 1600's. There are no Russian royals or French royals no matter what might pop up about either. As I understand it, from what I have read. That is the way it is. Relation, if some illegitimate offspring somehow popped up, is not royal relation when it is illegitimate and there is no way anyone is going to have authentic dna relation to a dynasty long gone and that family long ago executed. Just that simple. If there were, they wouldn't be so ignorant as to make it public, given the history of dislike of Royals in Russia and even France, and there are not. Now, Rasputin, who was not royal anything, but of help to the then royals of his day, his family line could of gone on and could be large, even if only one remained, he tried to help the Romanov's and dare I say read about what happened to him. The Romanov's were plagued with blood disorders anyway, for example, hemophilia. The Rurik dynasty had wives and illegitimate out of wedlock offspring, which I doubt lasted longer than a few breaths, soon before that dynasty ended. What does that tell you. It's Russia we are speaking of, think about it. As far as palaces are concerned and historical real estate is concerned, try and buy it and you might just wind up in a cell or worse. But I don't know, nor do I have a need to find out. lol

 

[Iluvbertie]

There was ONE hemophiliac in the Romanov family - the heir Alexis. That was because his mother brought it with her from her mother - Princess Alice, daughter of Queen Victoria.


It was also in the Spanish Royal family due to Princess Beatrice's daughter - Eugenie who became Queen of Spain and was another carrier.


There are a number of claimants from the Romanov dynasty who survived - mainly through female lines but still Romanovs.


Even the current BRF are descendants of the Tsars through Prince Philip's grandmother - a Russian grand-duchess.

 

[Pranter]

Yep in fact they used blood from Prince Phillip to confirm/verify the remains of the Romanovs.


LaRae

 

[Ish]

Yep in fact they used blood from Prince Phillip to confirm/verify the remains of the Romanovs.


LaRae

The DoE's blood wasn't used because he was descended from the Romanovs though. The wife and children of Nicholas II were both matrilineal descendants of Queen Victoria, and the DoE was at the time one of only 2 living matrilineal descendants of Queen Victoria. The DoE's descent from the Romanovs isn't a straight paternal or maternal line - his paternal grandmother was Grand Duchess Olga Constantinovna of Russia.

 

[Iluvbertie]

There were more than two matrilineal descendants - Philip's own sisters had daughters who were still alive but...they used his and his sister's as they were the oldest and closest in terms of descent from Princess Alice. Their maternal grandmother was the Tsarina's sister.

 

[Ish]

As usual, you are correct Bertie. I misread my source.

 

[Lee-Z]

The remains have long since been tested, identified and distinguished to the best of scientific capabilities, according to what I've read and there were no surviving Romanov's to carry that hereditary forward. Besides, the Russian people didn't want royalty and much like the French, did away with the royalty that was around years ago. The Rurik Dynasty has been gone since the 1600's. There are no Russian royals or French royals no matter what might pop up about either. As I understand it, from what I have read. That is the way it is. Relation, if some illegitimate offspring somehow popped up, is not royal relation when it is illegitimate and there is no way anyone is going to have authentic dna relation to a dynasty long gone and that family long ago executed. Just that simple. If there were, they wouldn't be so ignorant as to make it public, given the history of dislike of Royals in Russia and even France, and there are not. Now, Rasputin, who was not royal anything, but of help to the then royals of his day, his family line could of gone on and could be large, even if only one remained, he tried to help the Romanov's and dare I say read about what happened to him. The Romanov's were plagued with blood disorders anyway, for example, hemophilia. The Rurik dynasty had wives and illegitimate out of wedlock offspring, which I doubt lasted longer than a few breaths, soon before that dynasty ended. What does that tell you. It's Russia we are speaking of, think about it. As far as palaces are concerned and historical real estate is concerned, try and buy it and you might just wind up in a cell or worse. But I don't know, nor do I have a need to find out. lol

So basically, you come to this thread to diss the entire Romanov family and Russia itself in the proces, without knowing or caring about getting the facts straight (not all Romanovs were killed during the revolution, only one with hemophilia etc)?

Well, okay, that's an opinion too

 

[Chubb Fuddler]

There are no Russian royals or French royals no matter what might pop up about either.

Try telling that to Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia, and the various members of the French Royal and Imperial Houses.

 

[Al_bina]

https://ru-royalty.livejournal.com/3165050.html

The above link contains photos of Mrs Thomas Mathews, nee Princess Olga Andreevna Romanova. She is Grand Duchess Xenia Alexandrovna's granddaughter.

 

[Curryong]

Thumbahlina, yes Tsar Nicholas and his wife and children were killed by the Bolsheviks, but the Romanov dynasty had many branches. No less than 35 members of the Romanov family escaped Russia after the Revolution.

In addition eight Romanovs were already living abroad in 1918. They included the Grand Duke Dimitri Pavlovich, who had been exiled on the Tsar's orders for being involved in the murder of Rasputin. These people went on to live in France, England, the U.S. and Greece.

The only Romanov known to be a haemophiliac was Alexei, Tsar Nicholas's only son. The family as a whole did not suffer from any blood disorder.

 

[Al_bina]

https://ru-royalty.livejournal.com/3247608.html#comments

The blogger marisols informs us that Pavel Eduardovich Kulikovsky will attend the annual charity ball organised by the Jewellers' Guild of Russia on 30 September, 2015.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

George Mikhailovich, Count Brasov was the son of Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich. George went to Harrow, a prominent public boarding school in England in 1920. He also attended the Sorbonne. He inherited a third of his grandmother, the Dowager Empress Marie's estate.

 

[JR76]

The only Romanov known to be a haemophiliac was Alexei, Tsar Nicholas's only son. The family as a whole did not suffer from any blood disorder.

It was said at the time that one or two (I unfortunately can't remember) of Alexei's sisters showed signs of having the rare variety of hemophilia that gives also the female carriers some of the symptoms of the disease. A sign of this is that at least one of his sisters bled more than what's considered normal after an operation.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

One of the two elder daughters-either Olga or Tatiana, suffered from such an abnormally heavy cycle every month that it debilitated her and confined her to bed.

I don't remember which book this information appears in, but Alexandra makes a brief reference to it in her letters to her husband at the Front during WWI.

Perhaps it is this same Grand Duchess who hemorrhaged after surgery.

 

[JR76]

One of the two elder daughters-either Olga or Tatiana, suffered from such an abnormally heavy cycle every month that it debilitated her and confined her to bed.

I don't remember which book this information appears in, but Alexandra makes a brief reference to it in her letters to her husband at the Front during WWI.

Perhaps it is this same Grand Duchess who hemorrhaged after surgery.

According to Wikipedia (yes, I take that source with a pinch of salt) it was Maria who hemorrhaged when she had her tonsils taken out and it was also she who suffered during her periods although W only talks about her mood being affected. W also mentions that the girls aunt Olga Alexandrovna believed that all of the four girls bled more than was considered normal.

 

[Curryong]

I have read (not in Wiki) that it was Maria who bled heavily during a dental operation in her early teens. The doctors were terrified and stopped but Alexandra, who was waiting in the next room went in and calmed them down and the operation resumed.

Heavy bleeding doesn't mean haemophilia of course (some people for instance suffer constant nose bleeds) but I wouldn't be surprised if Marie had proved to be a carrier had she lived to marry and produce children. I haven't read anything about her sisters bleeding easily, and of course Alexi was a full blown haemophiliac. I often wonder if Olga or Tatiana had been healthy boys and been away from their parents in 1917 whether history would have been changed.

 

[Gawin]

DNA tests on bone fragments from the four grand duchesses revealed that Anastasia was a carrier. Tests also showed that Alexis suffered from Type B haemophilia, a more severe form than Type A.

See N. Lannoy & C. Hermans. "The Royal disease– Haemophilia A or B? A Haematological Mystery is Finally Solved." Haemophilia, 2010, vol. 16, pp. 843-47.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Harald Scavenius, the Danish minister, arranged for George Brasov, the son of Grand Duke Michael, to be smuggled to Denmark. Here George resided with King Christian X until he could rejoin his mother.