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  #261  
Old 06-28-2018, 11:39 AM
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In the video I linked at above (#256), Helen Rappaport explains, the Danes even paid ransom for some Romanov Grand Dukes, which the Bolsheviks took... - just to murder the Grand Dukes afterward. Same would have happened with the Romanov nuclear family...


Edit: That is wrong! I did read it here in the royal forums yesterday...
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  #262  
Old 06-28-2018, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post



In the video I linked at above (#256), Helen Rappaport explains, the Danes even paid ransom for some Romanov Grand Dukes, which the Bolsheviks took... - just to murder the Grand Dukes afterward. Same would have happened with the Romanov nuclear family...


Edit: That is wrong! I did read it here in the royal forums yesterday...
I was not talking about a ransom, but rather the imperial family being rescued/ extracted by the British and taken to a third country such as Denmark. Would that have been possible ?
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  #263  
Old 06-28-2018, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I was not talking about a ransom, but rather the imperial family being rescued/ extracted by the British and taken to a third country such as Denmark. Would that have been possible ?
The risk of the Imperial family being rescued/extracted was exactly why they were executed when and where they were.

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  #264  
Old 06-29-2018, 05:37 AM
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Rescue Mission

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I was not talking about a ransom, but rather the imperial family being rescued/ extracted by the British and taken to a third country such as Denmark. Would that have been possible ?
Well, they (the Romanov nuclear family) were really far away from all borders - in Jekaterinburg, behind the Ural, on the border between Europe and Asia...

Plus: The british SAS, which would be certainly able to do such stuff, was founded in the Second World War, so much later...

I think, such an operation would have been too difficult back then.
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  #265  
Old 07-30-2018, 01:50 PM
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[QUOTE=victor1319;2127854]


In the video I linked at above (#256), Helen Rappaport explains, the Danes even paid ransom for some Romanov Grand Dukes, which the Bolsheviks took... - just to murder the Grand Dukes afterward.

The Bolsjeviks demanded the money,but at that time the Grand Dukes were already killed,misleading is an art,and the darn bolsjeviks knew how to play that card.

And as far as saving the Family,any of the Family.If it wasn't for the consistent pleading by Queen Alexandra,George V would not have moved his butt,at all,to save at least the Dowager Empress and her retinue and a handfull of family members.Nobody did anything worthwhile to rescue them...Except maybe Alfonso of Spain,he did a lot but to no avail which frustrated and saddened him immensly.

Any attempt to debunk the blame put on George V failed so far,contrary,it only just convinced me more of the exact opposite!One can blame Stanfordham for being such an Machiavelli playing Georgy's mind by showing him the worse snippits of daily "press",but he could have looked further then his Royal behind himself yet lacked the grey cells to even come up with that very idea.No,G V..nothing was debunked...Oh yes,lots of name-dropping,yes,well ...sorry,but that doesn't work for me.

Oh was he sorry later???Oh yes,very,until his dying day he was.His dying day,poor George,he was "assisted"to "go over" so the news would reach the Times in time....Poor man was a victim of his time and age,and wife.And Karma.
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  #266  
Old 07-30-2018, 02:50 PM
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For ANY Rescue attempt to have even a chance of success it would -

a] have needed to be launched within [at latest] a Month of the abdication.
b] have needed the Family to split up into smaller [less recognisable] units of 1/2 or 3.
c] Have involved numbers of highly trained, fluent Russian speakers, completely familiar with the layout of Tsarskoye Selo/Alexander Palace/Petrograd [its Railway systems and Port facilities].
d] have needed contacts within the Provisional Government, the Petrograd Soviet and Imperial Household structures.
e] have needed co-operation by the [ex] Tsar and Tsarina and willingness to appreciate the gravity of their situation, and accept ORDERS from others [likely] unknown to them personally.

Quite how ANY foreign power could have satisfied ALL these crucial conditions at the time of the most critical juncture of the worst War the World had ever seen I don't know.

In short, the entire idea was/is a hopelessly romantic and UTTERLY unrealistic 'pipe-dream'.
Casting blame on ANY foreign person or persons unable to prevent the murders is simply wrong.
The ONLY people responsible are the Russians themselves..
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  #267  
Old 07-30-2018, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
For ANY Rescue attempt to have even a chance of success it would -

a] have needed to be launched within [at latest] a Month of the abdication.
b] have needed the Family to split up into smaller [less recognisable] units of 1/2 or 3.
c] Have involved numbers of highly trained, fluent Russian speakers, completely familiar with the layout of Tsarskoye Selo/Alexander Palace/Petrograd [its Railway systems and Port facilities].
d] have needed contacts within the Provisional Government, the Petrograd Soviet and Imperial Household structures.
e] have needed co-operation by the [ex] Tsar and Tsarina and willingness to appreciate the gravity of their situation, and accept ORDERS from others [likely] unknown to them personally.

Quite how ANY foreign power could have satisfied ALL these crucial conditions at the time of the most critical juncture of the worst War the World had ever seen I don't know.

In short, the entire idea was/is a hopelessly romantic and UTTERLY unrealistic 'pipe-dream'.
Casting blame on ANY foreign person or persons unable to prevent the murders is simply wrong.
The ONLY people responsible are the Russians themselves..

No no no no,it is not as easy as just that.Not at all.There was something else as well.It was incompetence and a strong naivity that ruled in all camps involved.No-one had any idea as to what sort of people they were dealing with,the bolsjeviks were far more horrific in wheeling and dealing then anyone could have held possible at the time.

Let down when still in a possibility to make the escape to Sweden via Finland while still in the AP,there have been possibilities by many parties involved but when it came to the point..they all failed to help.
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  #268  
Old 07-30-2018, 10:09 PM
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They rescued many, including the Dowager Empress and both of her daughters and their children. In the beginning it would have been possible, but George V did not want to make his throne vulnerable and so, his assistance was retracted. Even the Kaiser offered to take them, but Alexandra hated him so much she wouldn't hear of it. That no one saw the horrific outcome is possible, not probable. Lucien is correct.
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  #269  
Old 07-30-2018, 10:18 PM
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Does anyone have info on a good book about this for I would like to learn more. I have a book called *King, Kaiser and Tsar* by a woman named Clay I believe which is very good in the details that lead up to WW1 and how the relationship with the 3 cousins was at the time.....this is very horrific time in Europe, one of the worst I think.........the attempted rescue I know almost nothing about so am interested in learning, Thank you
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  #270  
Old 07-30-2018, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by M. Payton View Post
Does anyone have info on a good book about this for I would like to learn more. I have a book called *King, Kaiser and Tsar* by a woman named Clay I believe which is very good in the details that lead up to WW1 and how the relationship with the 3 cousins was at the time.....this is very horrific time in Europe, one of the worst I think.........the attempted rescue I know almost nothing about so am interested in learning, Thank you
Helen Rappaport have written "The race to save the Romanovs" and Corryne Hall have written "To free the Romanovs" both published this year.
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  #271  
Old 07-30-2018, 10:51 PM
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Though I find it all upsetting, I'm looking forward to reading Hall, but in my own library I've always found 'The Fate of the Romanovs' by Greg King and Penny Wilson, very interesting.
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  #272  
Old 07-30-2018, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
They rescued many, including the Dowager Empress and both of her daughters and their children. In the beginning it would have been possible, but George V did not want to make his throne vulnerable and so, his assistance was retracted. Even the Kaiser offered to take them, but Alexandra hated him so much she wouldn't hear of it. That no one saw the horrific outcome is possible, not probable. Lucien is correct.
If Alexandra had put aside her dislike of Wilhelm II, could she and Nicholas II have been able to go to Germany?
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  #273  
Old 07-30-2018, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Helen Rappaport have written "The race to save the Romanovs" and Corryne Hall have written "To free the Romanovs" both published this year.

Thank you so much JR for the info, I put both books on my Book List here. If you ever get a chance that book by Clay called King Kaiser and Tsar is really good, it is in depth about the relationship between the 3 cousins. I found some sympathy for Kaiser in that book because of his deformities in his arm. He really had a hatred of the British because of that I think...
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  #274  
Old 07-31-2018, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I was not talking about a ransom, but rather the imperial family being rescued/ extracted by the British and taken to a third country such as Denmark. Would that have been possible ?
That would have been possible, but I think a European country would have been too close to Russia for the Communists not to feel threatened. There would IMO be no doubt of the Communists trying to assassinate them there.

I think they would have been safer, (and politically out of the way as well!) to relocate them to New Zealand or Canada. And considerably easier to protect them there. Without at the same time also antagonizing segments of the population. - Which was probably one of the reasons the British wouldn't have them anywhere in Britain.
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  #275  
Old 07-31-2018, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
needed co-operation by the [ex] Tsar and Tsarina and willingness to appreciate the gravity of their situation
As I wrote earlier, the 'principal person's' in the drama seemed absolutely blind to the danger threatening them [and the entire Romanov Family].
Yet they were there..
If they could not, how can others FAR distant from Revolutionary Petrograd be expected to have grasped the nature of the Chaos, and the violent, unpredictable change that blew up in the late Winter of 1917.
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  #276  
Old 07-31-2018, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Though I find it all upsetting, I'm looking forward to reading Hall, but in my own library I've always found 'The Fate of the Romanovs' by Greg King and Penny Wilson, very interesting.
Oh,but they're the least of interesting in my view,all hear say and "by credible sources"...sorry if I blew a bubble..But there are far better & real authors out there..
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  #277  
Old 07-31-2018, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
As I wrote earlier, the 'principal person's' in the drama seemed absolutely blind to the danger threatening them [and the entire Romanov Family].
Yet they were there..
If they could not, how can others FAR distant from Revolutionary Petrograd be expected to have grasped the nature of the Chaos, and the violent, unpredictable change that blew up in the late Winter of 1917.
Various Ambassadors in StP at the time saw it coming,and Willy hoped for it given he allowed Lenin to pass.But October 1917 was a totally unexpected success for Lenin and his croonies to seize power,and then there was no way back.Even when wealing and dealing was an art the Reds understood well,no deal ever included a member of the Family..No,instead various governement...among them the British...recognised the new regime..as all thought they wouldn't last that long...Naivity to the max & cowardice lice
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  #278  
Old 07-31-2018, 05:47 AM
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Long BEFORE the October Revolution the chance of escape had evaporated..
By then the Family were in the depths of Siberia [in Tobolsk].

Even before they were moved there Petrograd, whilst 'on paper' under the 'moderate' Provisional Govt was [in reality] under the control of the 'radical' Soviets [wholly opposed to letting the Family go].
The window of opportunity was incredibly limited..
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  #279  
Old 08-03-2018, 02:21 AM
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IIRC there was some kind of plan to bring them to England but the girls had measles and couldn't go.. Or Alix didn't want them to go then. But by the time they recovered, George V had reconsidered and wasn't keen to have them in Britain.

I don't think that the BRF really considered them to be in danger of execution, just of being imprisoned for some long time.. and so they didn't feel obliged to put their own thrones in danger to rescue them and give them a home...
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