Reburial of Empress Marie Feodorovna: 23-28 September 2006

[BeatrixFan]

Well, I don't agree with you, I believe she is Her Imperial Highness and a Grand Duchess and whats more, she's got a right to call herself Titular Empress if she so wishes because that's her rightful position.

 

[Benjamin]

She has no right to hold the rank of Imperial Highness or to be a Grand Duchess. She is simply Princess Maria Vladimirovna Romanovskaya, just like everyone else in the family, as a morganatic descendant of an imperial dynast.

Firstly, if you are going to use the morganatic argument against Maria then she wouldn't have any title. I'm not sure where you're getting that she would be a Princess Romanovskaya, as such a title has never been granted to Leonida as her marriage to Wladimir has been recognized as equal (not only by Wladimir himself) but also by practically all the Heads of European Royal Houses (to name a few, the King of Spain, the King of Romania, the King of Bulgaria, the King of Greece, the Crown Prince of Yugoslavia, the Prince of Prussia, the Count of Paris).

Secondly, the only reason that Natalia Cheremetevskya became H.S.H. Princess Romanovskaya-Brassova or that Mathilde Kchessinska became H.S.H. Princess Romanovskaya-Krassinskya or that Audrey Emery became H.S.H. Princess Romanovskaya-Ilyinsky or that Lady Mary Lygon became H.S.H. Princess Romanovsky-Pavlovsky or that Emilia de Gosztonyi became H.S.H. Princess Romanovsky or that Valli Knust became H.S.H. Princess Romanovsky-Knust or that Antonina Nesterovskaia became H.S.H. Princess Romanovskaya-Strelynskaya or that Princess Irina Kurakina became H.S.H. Princess Romanovsky or that Nadine McDougall became H.S.H. Princess Romanovsky or that Countess Marina Golenistcheva-Koutouzova became H.S.H. Princess Romanovskaya-Kutusova or that Princess Natalia Galitzine became H.S.H. Princess Romanovsky was because the aforementioned ladies' respective husbands (Mikhail Alexandrovich, Andrei Wladimirovich, Dimitri Pavlovich, Vsevolod Ivanovich, Gavril Constantinovich, Andrew Alexandrovitch, Dimitri Alexandrovich, & Vassili Alexandrovich) asked either Emperor Nicholas II, Grand Duke Kyrill, or Grand Duke Wladimir to grant their spouses a title so that their children would carry one. However certain other Romanov princes, namely Roman Petrovitch and Andrew Alexandrovich (in the instance of his first marriage) didn't ask the Grand Duke Kyrill to grant their morganatic wives titles and ipso facto their descendants are titleless. However that hasn't stopped their descendants (the most well known being Nikolai Romanovich) from firstly assuming the title of Princes/Princesses Romanov, which they have absolutely no right to, and then moving on (in Nikolai's case) to pronouncing themselves to be Princes/Princesses of Russia with the predicate of Highness, which is even more ridiculous and without grounds than the title that they claimed first.

Thirdly, I'm not sure how your insistence that Maria isn't an Imperial Grand Duchess is relevant to a topic discussing the reburial of Maria Feodorovna.

Sources for the first two paragraphs:

• The Grand Duchesses: Daughters and Granddaughters of Russia's Tsars
• Almanach de Gotha 2004 Volume One
• Paul Theroff's Online Gotha - Russia
• Guy Stair Sainty's Genealogy of the Imperial House

 

[branchg]

Grand Duke Vladimir was the rightful Head of the House and certainly could grant titles and dignities as he saw fit. And yes, he did declare his wife and daughter to be of imperial rank with the title of Grand Duchess of Russia.

But that doesn't mean it was correct. If his wife, as a Princess Bagration, was declared of equal rank to marry an imperial dynast, then so were other marriages to Russian noblewoman from families inscribed in the Books of Nobility during Imperial Russia. Given this point, there are other, more senior male lines of descent that would be valid after Vladimir's death.

Nicholas Romanov is not a Prince of Russia nor does he have the right to style himself HH. He has no title at all.

 

[BeatrixFan]

But surely it is correct because Grand Duke Vladimir had the total power to grant titles and if he made his daughter an HIH and a Grand Duchess then thats what she is.

 

[Benjamin]

But surely it is correct because Grand Duke Vladimir had the total power to grant titles and if he made his daughter an HIH and a Grand Duchess then thats what she is.

Completely agree. As Wladimir had absolute power over such things, as the Head of the Russian Imperial House does, then what he decided can't possibly be incorrect as it is the law.

 

[branchg]

But surely it is correct because Grand Duke Vladimir had the total power to grant titles and if he made his daughter an HIH and a Grand Duchess then thats what she is.

It's an open question because Vladimir did not clarify with the remaining dynasts (all of whom were of imperial rank before the Revolution and prior to his birth) why Leonida and Maria are HIH Grand Duchesses and Russian noble princesses of the Noblility who married imperial dynasts were not.

Most royal scholars agree the Bagration marriage could not possibly be equal under the Pauline Laws and Maria has the same status as other lines of descent.

 

[BeatrixFan]

But it isn't up to Royal Scholars. Its up to the Head of the Family who has just the same rights over the family as The Royal Martyr Nicholas had. So if Vladimir says they were HIH Grand Duchesses then he doesn't need to clarify it because what he says is what happens. As Benjamin said, it can't be incorrect because it's the law.

 

[Benjamin]

Most royal scholars agree the Bagration marriage could not possibly be equal under the Pauline Laws and Maria has the same status as other lines of descent.

What persons do you include in "most royal scholars"? I have never read the book of one person who has written about Maria Vladimirovna who has ever denied her her imperial title (or if they did they have corrected their mistake in recent editions).

Here are some links to discussions on some other boards about Maria Wladimirovna:
"Bagrations and Romanovs" on alt.talk.royalty
"Maria Vladimirovna" on alt.talk.royalty
"Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna" on alt.talk.royalty
"Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia" on alt.talk.royalty
"The Imperial House of Romanov" on Royals Portal Forum

You will find that the overwhelming majority of persons recognize Maria as a Grand Duchess with the predicate of Imperial Highness. Many of the persons who take part in the discussions are either royal authors, royal researchers, monarchists, or persons whose have deeply studied this subject.

 

[Benjamin]

And Maria's proper title, agreed by State and Church is Her Imperial Highness The Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna.

Just to reinforce the fact that Maria is recognized in her rightful role by the Russian Federation, here is a link to a page on the Russian Federation's Dutch Embassy that talks about the dynastic ties between the Oranges and Romanovs where Maria is referred to as "the present Head of the Russian Empire House (sic) Sovereign Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna" (7th paragraph).

Source: Relations between the dynasty Orange-Nassau and the House of Romanov

 

[BeatrixFan]

And that is saying something. If the Russian Federation and every other Royal House recognises her as a Grand Duchess and an HIH then that just adds to her role.

 

[queenofcelts]

I wonder can commoners visit ceremony or not?
I am seriously thinking about going to St.Petersburg this autumn, maybe even in September

 

[BeatrixFan]

You could probably stand along the route of the procession but I doubt you'd get into the Cathedral without a ticket unless you were very lucky.

 

[branchg]

And that is saying something. If the Russian Federation and every other Royal House recognises her as a Grand Duchess and an HIH then that just adds to her role.

As far as I know, only Juan Carlos grants Maria the courtesy of recognition as she is a long-time citizen of Spain. The rest of the major royal houses do not and hold the position the dynastic claim ended with Vladimir's death.

 

[queenofcelts]

Maybe I will be lucky...maybe be they will let commoners to say last "good-bye" and their respect and honor to Maria Feodorovna.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I should think there'll be a time for people to file past the casket. Thats the point of a State funeral so you may be lucky and I hope you are.

 

[Benjamin]

Grand Duke Vladimir was the rightful Head of the House and certainly could grant titles and dignities as he saw fit. And yes, he did declare his wife and daughter to be of imperial rank with the title of Grand Duchess of Russia.

If you say that Maria was declared to be an Imperial Grand Duchess by her father then why did you earlier post:

She has no right to hold the rank of Imperial Highness or to be a Grand Duchess. She is simply Princess Maria Vladimirovna Romanovskaya, just like everyone else in the family, as a morganatic descendant of an imperial dynast.

Isn't that a bit contradictory?

 

[Benjamin]

As far as I know, only Juan Carlos grants Maria the courtesy of recognition as she is a long-time citizen of Spain. The rest of the major royal houses do not and hold the position the dynastic claim ended with Vladimir's death.

See my earlier post:

I'm not sure where you're getting that she would be a Princess Romanovskaya, as such a title has never been granted to Leonida as her marriage to Wladimir has been recognized as equal (not only by Wladimir himself) but also by practically all the Heads of European Royal Houses (to name a few, the King of Spain, the King of Romania, the King of Bulgaria, the King of Greece, the Crown Prince of Yugoslavia, the Prince of Prussia, the Count of Paris).

 

[Benjamin]

Here is a quotation from The Grand Duchesses in Chapter 12, page 215:

In Russia, Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna is welcomed as the heiress to the imperial throne. She has visited the country dozens of times since 1992 and continues to participate in charitable endeavors within Russia. The Russian Orthodox Church has provided Maria Wladimirovna with its solid backing and support, while the government recognizes her historic position. In and around Europe, all other heads of house recognize Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna as the head of the imperial house of Russia. In Spain, for example, she is always invited to any official celebrations hosted by King Juan Carlos. Next door in France, Maria Wladimirovna can always count on the support of the Count of Paris, head of the royal house of France. Her Balkan cousins from Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria, and Greece recognize and accept her position. Her German cousins, particularly the Prussians, have no doubts as to the role she plays as head of her house.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I do remember an announcement on the Crown Prince of Serbia's site where he'd attended some event with "HIH Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, Head of the Imperial House of Russia".

 

[Mapple]

Let us keep a bit closer to the topic, shall we? There is a neighbour of a thread dedicated to Maria Vladimirovna and her claims.

Wonder whether I would be able to visit St Petersburg in these September days. I think that there will be some time allotted to the common people to see and to walk past the coffin in the Cathedral of St Peter and St Paul, even if the funeral ceremony itself is going to be closed to us. It is so in case of prominent Russian émigrés that have been reinterred in Moscow in recent years, e.g. Shmelev, Denikin...
http://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ladimirovna-current-claimant-throne-7321.html

 

[Lady Jennifer]

This might sound like a silly (& possibly morbid) question but will they be using the same casket or will they put the body into a new casket for the reburial?

Wonder whether I would be able to visit St Petersburg in these September days. I think that there will be some time allotted to the common people to see and to walk past the coffin in the Cathedral of St Peter and St Paul, even if the funeral ceremony itself is going to be closed to us. It is so in case of prominent Russian émigrés that have been reinterred in Moscow in recent years, e.g. Shmelev, Denikin...

 

[Vecchiolarry]

Alexander Nevsky Monastary

Hello All,

I heard from someone who is going to St. Petersburg in September that her coffin will lie-in-state at the Alexander Nevsky Monastary. This is at the east end of the Nevsky Prospect. It will be there from September 26th to 28th, when it will process west down the Nevsky Prospect and south down the English Embankment to St. Isaac Cathedral.
Then after a requiem mass it goes north up English and Palace Embankments and across the Neva to St. Peter and St. Paul Fortress.
There it will be interred next to Alexander III.

Larry

 

[Mapple]

This might sound like a silly (& possibly morbid) question but will they be using the same casket or will they put the body into a new casket for the reburial?

The latter, I think -- old coffins are quite erm... unsightly to behold.

 

[Lady Jennifer]

Thats what I was thinking as well.

The latter, I think -- old coffins are quite erm... unsightly to behold.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I think that Marie's coffin has been over ground since her death so they will probably use the one she's currently resting in. When Marie died in 1928, there were services in the Orthodox church in Copenhagen but her body was placed in the Roskilde Cathedral. Now, I believe that her coffin has been above ground in a small alcove in the Cathedral and so another coffin probably won't be used.

I'm currently converting to Orthodoxy and I asked my catechist about a reburial service. He said that it's most likely that the coffin will stay the same unless she was interred below ground. Then a new one will be used and it will probably be opened for people to view. Then, the coffin will probably remain open and Marie's remains will be blessed with Holy Water. Now, considering how long Marie has been dead and considering that she did have a kind of funeral service when she died, the prayer of absolution which usually follows probably won't be said because she has already been absolved from sin. Also, the family won't go forward to kiss the deceased but they may place flowers or written prayers in the coffin instead. Then, prayers will be said and there will be some kind of adapted funeral service before Marie is finally interred next to her husband.

 

[Lady Jennifer]

Here is an article I just found:

Russia, Denmark discuss transfer of Russian empress’ remains

09.08.2006, 21.48

ST. PETERSBURG, August 9 (Itar-Tass) -- Russia’s State King-of-Arms Georgy Vilinbakhov met with Dutch officials in Copenhagen has discussed the details of the first stage of a ceremony.....
Link

 

[BeatrixFan]

Thanks for that link Lady Jennifer. Interestingly, I found this photograph from the reburial of Grand Duchess Alexandra Pavlovna. Notice that in the article, it says that the coffin of Marie will remained closed but for Alexandra it was opened and Michael von Habsburg-Lothringen is shown attending to her body. It'll be interesting to see what form the reburial service takes.



Pic from Corbis.

 

[zarat]

The Danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs have made a web-page for those who want to follow the Reburial of Empress Marie Feodorovna, from 23.- 28. September, 2006, in Denmark and Russia.

http://www.reburial.um.dk/en - The English version (is very poor in links/material at the moment)
http://www.reburial.um.dk/da - The Danish version
http://www.reburial.um.dk/ru - The Russian version - or I'm assuming it is Russian, since I don't actually know it.

Yes, it's Russian version- in Cyrillic alphabet

 

[wymanda]

Has it been announced who will represent the British royal family? I would assume that it would be Prince & Princess Michael as he has direct descent from the Romanovs & from Christian IX of Denmark.

 

[zarat]

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page4056.asp?submitted=true&submit2=1&region=Non-UK
In Royal diary regarding september's engagements of british royal family there's no information about participation in funeral.