Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

[BeatrixFan]

Oh it was. Whilst the Imperial Family and their courtiers lived in extreme wealth, there was extreme poverty which affected the majority of the population. And that's probably the biggest factor in the fall of the Russian Monarchy which is why any restoration would have to have financial benefits.

[sirhon11234]

But would it be good for Russia to restore its monarchy again?

[BeatrixFan]

Well, if the Russians want it yes. But right now, Russia has more important things to worry about.

[BorisRom]

Originally Posted by sirhon11234

But wasn't Russia in poverty during the last decade of the Romanov's power over Russia.

ACHIEVEMENTS of Russia during the period of Nicholas's II reign
_____1. In Nicholas's II reign a Russian financial-currency system has been created. The rouble "restricted" franc and mark, overtook dollar and promptly came nearer to pound sterling. For the first time in a history of Russia the incomes exceeded charges: in 1908 this excess was 30 million gold roubles - in 1912 a proficiency was already 335 million. It is very important, that it occured without increase in tax burden.
_____2. The burden of direct taxes at Nicholas II in Russia was twice less, than in France and Germany, and in 8.5 times less, than in England. All this has led to blossoming of Russian industry and to an inflow of capitals from all advanced countries.
_____3. During the period with 1894 for 1913 the young Russian industry has increased the productivity twice. An extent of railways increased for 1574 kilometers one year (the best parameter of the USSR (by 1956) has made 995 kilometers.)
_____4. The agriculture of Russia promptly developed too. Within 1894-1914 a harvesting of bread was doubled. With 1907 for 1913 the crops of the basic cereal cultures in Russia on third were higher, than in the USA, Canada and Argentina taken together. Never in the future (in USSR) it repeated! Russia became the basic provision dealer to the Western Europe; 70% percent of world (global) export of oil and 50% of world (global) export of eggs made at Russia. On a change to bearded Russian merchants there came the industrialists and financiers having behind shoulders the Russian and foreign universities. On the rivers of the country the biggest in the world a river fleet was.
_____5. "Silver Age" in art, "Golden Age" in the literature and publishing, blossoming of journalism, a newspaper affair, occurrence of thousand of every possible magazines, hundreds new museums and fifty temples only in one Petersburg - all this has taken place in reign of Nikolay Aleksandrovich Romanov.
_____6. He gives to the country of a basis of parliamentary democracy and free elections, he watches closely these processes, perfectly understanding, that Russia is not absolutely ready to similar transformations.
_____7. Unprecedented earlier a program of national education is entered. Universities and higher educational institutions experience a blossoming, using freedom which they never had and will not have in the future. By 1913 the general(common) budget of national education achieves the enormous sum - half-billion gold roubles, and rate of its gain for twenty years - 628 %! Right at the beginning of Nicholas's II reign the elementary education in Russia becomes free-of-charge, and since 1908 - obligatory. Unprecedented earlier a development is experienced with Russian science.

Nicholas's II reign is an real RUSSIAN MIRACLE. The wide open space for creative and creative activity opened, it has grasped all Russian society. Russian intellect has received a powerful charge, probably, for the first time for one thousand years in full. The most interesting plans of new economic reforms and a financial policy were still ahead.
Certainly, would be silly to deny, that during Nicholas's reign in Russia there was not many problems, inevitable at so prompt movement from a feudal gloom to a civilization, at a jump from world outsiders - into world leaders.

In addition, under Nikolay's initiative right at the beginning of his reign the first in a history of a civilization an attempt to limit « race of arms » by the wide international contract has been undertaken. In 1898 his government, under his initiative has suggested to call the international conference for discussion of a question on disarmament. Conference has taken place in Hague in 1899 - I already mentioned it earlier.
I think, not everyone know, that the decisions and the charters of the Hague conferences were included then as a basis in the charter of League of the Nations and then in the basic authorized documents of the United Nations.

Boris

[BorisRom]

Originally Posted by sirhon11234

But wasn't Russia in poverty during the last decade of the Romanov's power over Russia.

I have found out recently, that the President the USA Taffetas (Taft?) in 1912 has told about Nicholas II:
"Russian emperor has created such perfect working legislation of what any democratic state till now cannot brag".
Really, the social status of workers in Russia those years was rather good. Nicholas conducted active social policy for improvement of position of city workers at factories. Whether you know, that till 1905 the police frequently acted on the side of workers in their conflicts against employers (during strikes)? It was Nicholas's internal policy.
Boris

[sirhon11234]

This is so interesting, in global history in my school we learned that Russia was in poverty and that Nicolas wasn't a good leader and thats what lead to the revolusion and his and his family's murder by the bolsheviks.

[AdmiralSteven]

Mods, if this isn't the proper place for this, or if there is another thread that this should go in, please move for me. I didn't see any thread about this so I thought I'd start a new one on this.

This is an interesting article I found about Russia and a possible shift to a monarchy. This article could be an editorial, but I thought it was interesing enough to pass along. In the title of the article is says that "...some suggest it should shift back to monarchy. I'm not sure who the Some are, but it does go along with an article I posted a while back about the number of monarchial groups growing in Russia. Here's the link:Interfax-Religion. I think this is interesting. I've always thought that since the Soviet Union fell, there could, at some point, be a gradual shift back to a monarchy. Although I never though I'd live to see it, and I still may never see it. However, the possibility of seeing it has gotten a little better. Just wanted to share.

[branchg]

The Russian Government isn't interested in restoring the monarchy and the Russian people are lukewarm, at best.

It's not going to happen.

[Duke of Thora]

The problem with reinstating the Tsar in Russia, is the question of just who? The Grand Duchess Maria seems to be disqualified under the family rule regarding the inequal marriage of her parents.Because of Salic law the descendents of Xenia Alexandrovitch can be ruled out. Do we then go to Nicholas of Russia grandson of Alexander II's brother Nicolas as successor? Would Russia want an 85 year old tsar? According to the article in Point de Vue after the reinterrment of the Empress Dagmar, the family relations are so cold, that there is no chance of concensus in any case? Any ideas as to who?

[BorisRom]

Originally Posted by Duke of Thora

<...>
...Any ideas as to who?

I wrote on May, 23 - and let me to repeat this once again now:

I think now it is very difficult to define a circleof the real pretenders. In 1613 dynasty of Ryurickovichs was replaced by Romanov's by dynasty at will of "Greatest Zemsky cathedral (Duma)" (elected by people; analogue of the constitutional assembly). In 1613 the Romanov's sort (stock) was not a favorite among applicants from the very beginning. It is impossible to exclude that in 2012-2014 a new dynasty will be chosen. Nevertheless, I think, that pretenders from Romanov's or\and Rurickovich's will have good chances.
Besides, now in Russia two-three personsname themselves as the son of tsarevitch Alexey who has been ostensibly rescued on July, 17, 1918.
The monk foreteller Avel (1757-1841) wrote, that the name of the new monarch will be the third name in a history of Russia. To this prophecy can correspond :
1. Nicholas III;
2. Michael III;
3. Alexey III, - cesarevitch Alexey was lost (whether was lost?) on July, 17, 1918 several minutes after violent death of Nicholas II.
If to consider Rurickovichs also, after prince Oleg and princess Olga:
4. Oleg III

Boris

[Al_bina]

Boris,
You have provided very interesting perspective on the matter under discussion. I have read many books by Valentin Pikul that portrayed different periods of the Russian history. I do understand that these novels might be viewed as inaccurate because they are somewhat biased interpretation of the historical events.
Based on reading various books related to the Russian history and learning the Russian history at secondary school and institute, it might be fair to say that Russians tend to be attracted to strong and charismatic leaders. I do factor in the degree of bias and inaccuracies in “serving” the course of history in the educational system. This implies that Russia may have a monarchy as soon as such person appears and seize power through coup d'etat.
Furthermore, Russia did show favourable developments at the macro-economical level. However these developments were not clearly manifested at the micro-economical level. This allowed the parties involved to seize the opportune moment and take power.
At the same time, I do not understand why and how Russians should repent the Romanovs’ assassination. Many leaders (royal and non-royal) were assassinated over the course of times. No one seems to call to repent similar actions in other countries (e.g., France). What can the collective repentance for the brutal assassination of the Imperial Family change at the state level?

[BorisRom]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

Boris,
...At the same time, I do not understand why and how Russians should repent the Romanovs’ assassination. Many leaders (royal and non-royal) were assassinated over the course of times. No one seems to call to repent similar actions in other countries (e.g., France). What can the collective repentance for the brutal assassination of the Imperial Family change at the state level?

Al bina,
ALL Russians have sworn on fidelity of a dynasty of Romanovs in 1613 "for ever", therefore - from the orthodox point of view - ALL people which have accepted citizenship of the USSR (and their descendants) have broken this oath, this oath - therefore EVERYONE should repent now.
If to distract from Orthodoxy, the fact will be, that the overwhelming majority of citizens of Russia today are descendants of bolsheviks and those who sympathized with them. (my ancestors were bolsheviks too). Thus, the majority of people in Russia should repent of those atrocities which were made by bolsheviks.
Unfortunately, the true repentance is impossible in Russia now - even because not less of 15-20% of Russians would like to return in days of the USSR.
USSR was empire of evil. Certainly, those people which disagree with it, they do not consider it necessary any repentance also.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Duke of Thora

The problem with reinstating the Tsar in Russia, is the question of just who? The Grand Duchess Maria seems to be disqualified under the family rule regarding the inequal marriage of her parents.Because of Salic law the descendents of Xenia Alexandrovitch can be ruled out. Do we then go to Nicholas of Russia grandson of Alexander II's brother Nicolas as successor? Would Russia want an 85 year old tsar? According to the article in Point de Vue after the reinterrment of the Empress Dagmar, the family relations are so cold, that there is no chance of concensus in any case? Any ideas as to who?

The Government and the Church both recognize Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna as the Head of the Imperial House. The rest of the family is clearly morganatic, although certainly they are descendants of Grand Dukes and Princes of the Blood Imperial, and they do not have the goodwill Maria has built-up over the years in Russia.

[Al_bina]

Boris,
I have been pleased to get your comments. It is really great that you are a person of faith. With all respect, I can not agree with your views.
Firstly, it is rather lopsided to define the USSR as the empire of evil. The USSR used carrot and stick to govern its subjects as well as the Romanovs’ did. The Romanovs’ reign might be not viewed as totally cloudless and progressive. Why do you hate your family so much? I assume your Bolshevik parents did their best in giving you means to succeed in this life.
Secondly, I believe that Nicholas II was not strong enough to quell disobedience among his subjects of all levels (elite and ordinary people) and fight for his throne. Furthermore, Russians should be allowed just to live a normal life without always repenting something. Russians and other ethnic groups suffered many hardships from both Monarchy and Bolsheviks.
Thirdly, I think that the Romanovs’ time is over. If there is restoration, any other noble family should take power (e.g., Golitsyns, Dolgorukovs, Yussupovs, or Sheremetevs).

[BorisRom]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

Boris,
... Why do you hate your family so much? I assume your Bolshevik parents did their best in giving you means to succeed in this life....

Al bina,
I think, you have not rather truly understood me. First, certainly I do not feel any hatred to my ancestors (to the late grandfathers and grandmothers). I'm deeply feeling their life and their tragedy. One my grandfather has been executed in 1937, other grandfather has died of famine in blockade of Leningrad. Both of them were simple fair people (not "commissars", not security officers (not NKVD) and not ministers) and both of them were victims of devil bolshevik "realm". They trusted in devil lie of communism («construction of paradise on the Earth - without God and against God »).
However, I trusted in this big lie till 1975-1980 too. Those years already the majority of people have started to laugh at a fairy tale on communism.
Unfortunately, it was not the harmless fairy tale. This big lie cost Russia up to hundred million innocent victims (civil war, famine in Ukraine, reprisals, WWII). By the way, I shall remind you, that USSR of beginnings WWII (in 1939) was the ally of nazi Germany. Bolshevism and nazism is two sides of one devil medal.
Besides, USSR cannot be anything other as Empire of evil for all believing people all over the world. USSR was the country of aggressive state total atheism down to 1985.
For example, a regular visiting of church could break any career in any official organization down to 1985.
Stalin used Russian orthodox church extremely in own purposes and he has spoiled her(it) for long years.
I feel to a history of my country of XX century not hatred, but grief and repentance.
I am the normal person in other relations

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by BorisRom

Al bina,
I think, you have not rather truly understood me. First, certainly I do not feel any hatred to my ancestors (to the late grandfathers and grandmothers). I'm deeply feeling their life and their tragedy. One my grandfather has been executed in 1937, other grandfather has died of famine in blockade of Leningrad. Both of them were simple fair people (not "commissars", not security officers (not NKVD) and not ministers) and both of them were victims of devil bolshevik "realm". They trusted in devil lie of communism («construction of paradise on the Earth - without God and against God »).
However, I trusted in this big lie till 1975-1980 too. Those years already the majority of people have started to laugh at a fairy tale on communism.
Unfortunately, it was not the harmless fairy tale. This big lie cost Russia up to hundred million innocent victims (civil war, famine in Ukraine, reprisals, WWII). By the way, I shall remind you, that USSR of beginnings WWII (in 1939) was the ally of nazi Germany. Bolshevism and nazism is two sides of one devil medal.
Besides, USSR cannot be anything other as Empire of evil for all believing people all over the world. USSR was the country of aggressive state total atheism down to 1985.
For example, a regular visiting of church could break any career in any official organization down to 1985.
Stalin used Russian orthodox church extremely in own purposes and he has spoiled her(it) for long years.
I feel to a history of my country of XX century not hatred, but grief and repentance.
I am the normal person in other relations

Boris,
We have got a few things in common. My Karachay great grandfather and two brothers (one of whom was a prokuror of the oblast) of my grandmother were executed in 1937-1938. My great grandmother along with two remaining children (i.e., my grandmother and her younger brother) was deported to Kazakhstan in 1940-1941 in spite of the fact that she had a son, who was a Hero of the Soviet Union. My grandmother was not allowed to get a higher education. Thus, I am aware of (1) the fact that the USSR did collaborate with Germany in 1939; and (2) reprisals for attending religious ceremonies and services. As any other regime (democracy, dictatorship, or monarchy), the USSR applied necessary methods to suppress discontent of people against the state.
Going back to repentance of the Russian for the brutal assassination of the Imperial Family, I believe that Russians and other nationalities of the Russian Federation have seen enough hardships to atone this horrible event. By the way, what about the French Royal Family? What way have the French people repented the public execution of the Royal Family and other aristocrats?
Finally, the restoration may entail returning the nationalized property (lands, plants, estates, restitutions of some kind, and etc.). I dare to assume that new rich elite is not eagerly anxious to stand down their newly acquired property in favour of previous owners.

[BorisRom]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

Boris,
We have got a few things in common. My Karachay great grandfather and two brothers (one of whom was a prokuror of the oblast) of my grandmother were executed in 1937-1938. My great grandmother along with two remaining children (i.e., my grandmother and her younger brother) was deported to Kazakhstan in 1940-1941 in spite of the fact that she had a son, who was a Hero of the Soviet Union. My grandmother was not allowed to get a higher education. <...>
Going back to repentance of the Russian for the brutal assassination of the Imperial Family, I believe that Russians and other nationalities of the Russian Federation have seen enough hardships to atone this horrible event. By the way, what about the French Royal Family? What way have the French people repented the public execution of the Royal Family and other aristocrats?
Finally, the restoration may entail returning the nationalized property (lands, plants, estates, restitutions of some kind, and etc.). I dare to assume that new rich elite is not eagerly anxious to stand down their newly acquired property in favour of previous owners.

Al bina,
First, I thank you for sharing with me the history of your family. I think, not less than 80 % of families (of the modern population of the countries of former USSR) have similar biographies of grandfathers and grandmothers in USSR. Simultaneously, more than 90 % of Russians in the USSR trusted in lie of bolsheviks (and then of communists) almost until this strong Empire of evil did not begin to rot in 1960th years and then to collapse in 1980th years.
Neither the Frenchmen, nor other European peoples had not in the history anything similar. We, Russians, count ourselves as Europeans and we should realize own responsibility for a bloody history of Russia of XX century (and of all peoples of USSR, and Karachays, Chechens, Kalmyks and others).
Winners of WWII have forced Germans to pass a way of de-nazification and it has rescued Germany and it has provided to Germany a worthy place in modern Europe. Russia in 1991-1994 had chance to pass a way of de-bolshevisation (a court above the CPSU, a lustration), but we have not made it up to the end. Now Russia again "creeps" down into a spiteful skin of the USSR. We have not now other chance for rescue, except of voluntary collective repentance… Perhaps, we have no any chances in general …
The main reference point of tragedy of Russia in XX century is brutal murder (more exactly – bloody massacre) of Imperial family (together with children and servitors) on July, 17, 1918. Majority of Russian people «has not frowned at all», having found out it … Certainly, moral falling of people began earlier, but on July, 17, 1918 there is the main reference point. A repentance should begin from it.
Boris

P.S. I hope, you are not confused by a definition of Russians as European people :) By the way, till now many Russian put all responsibility for all troubles of Russia (since 1917) on Jews. Alas, it only strengthens validity of comparison of the USSR with nazi Germany and Russians with Germans.
P.P.S. As to that «the restoration may entail returning the nationalized property (lands, plants, estates, restitutions of some kind, and etc.)» - all members of Romanov’s dynasty (modern Romanov's House) for a long time have refused these claims. However, bank contributions of Imperial family to English banks (made by Nicholas and Alexandra till 1917, for their children too) are estimated now in 100-400 billion dollars (and even up to 2000 billion, by some estimations) - I think, in case of the restoration of a monarchy with Romanov's dynasty it would be a fair "prize" for them.

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by BorisRom

P.P.S. As to that «the restoration may entail returning the nationalized property (lands, plants, estates, restitutions of some kind, and etc.)» - all members of Romanov’s dynasty (modern Romanov's House) for a long time have refused these claims. However, bank contributions of Imperial family to English banks (made by Nicholas and Alexandra till 1917, for their children too) are estimated now in 100-400 billion dollars (and even up to 2000 billion, by some estimations) - I think, in case of the restoration of a monarchy with Romanov's dynasty it would be a fair "prize" for them.

Well, the Romanovs seem to have financial means. What about the others (i.e., nobility or Russian entrepreneurs, who lost everything as well)? Can they claim the nationalized property?

[BorisRom]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

Well, the Romanovs seem to have financial means. What about the others (i.e., nobility or Russian entrepreneurs, who lost everything as well)? Can they claim the nationalized property?

Al bina,
The best palaces are in the state federal list of a cultural heritage and cannot be privatized by anybody and never - it is the most probable.
The destiny of several best palaces till now is not clear. For example, Alexandrosky Palace "is occupied" by naval department (Navy) and the government ostensibly has no money (till now!) for resettlement Navy and for the restoration of this palace.
However, there are thousands objects (former nobiliary and latifund manors and other historical buildings) which are in lists of the regional property of objects of a cultural heritage. Many of these buildings are in bad condition till now. Last two-three years the government of the Russian Federation develops the law on privatization of these objects (under condition of their restoration by new owners). I think, former owners of these objects would can participate in their privatization. In turn, Romanov's House would can finance for these purposes of former noble owners (long-term credits from the huge monetary contribution of Imperial family to English banks).
As to thousand industrial and agrarian objects (which are privatized in 1991-2007), former owners would can participate in their management in accordance with general practice (purchase of share holdings and to that similar market mechanisms).
It is possible to not doubt, that Romanov's House is interested in stability of Russia not less, than the present Russian government.
Boris
P.S. One of my great-grandmothers was noblewoman (she had a nobiliary family tree) and her family had the good house (but not a palace) in Saint Petersburg (on the Petrograd side). However, my mother any more did not know the exact address of this house She was afraid even to tell about her grandmother-noblewoman down to 1960th years … In any case, tens thousand such successors of former owners (similar I am) have no any chances to return the similar property and will not apply for it.

[Al_bina]

My paternal great grandmother belonged to a noble family. She had to marry my great grandfather in order to save her family from persecution. My family still has got a mansion not far from the resort Mineral’nye Vody. My father does not want “this headache” since the region is a war zone now.
Possible return of the nationalized property is an extremely complex and complicated issue. Current descendants of the Russian nobility are not quite Russian due to marriages and life abroad. I am almost sure that these descendants would like to get back what was taken illegally from their families, without participating in any privatization.
P.S. I truly enjoy our discussion.