Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

[branchg]

And not everyone agrees Maria is born of an equal marriage as her mother was not royal under the Pauline Laws. The Bagration-Moukhransky line of the Georgian Royal House was nobility in Imperial Russia and never considered to be equal to the Romanovs.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by branchg

And not everyone agrees Maria is born of an equal marriage as her mother was not royal under the Pauline Laws. The Bagration-Moukhransky line of the Georgian Royal House was nobility in Imperial Russia and never considered to be equal to the Romanovs.

Sure, the supporters regard her as dynastical and the non-supporters do not. But when you see her line of succession (Russia, Leiningen, Prussia) one can not deny it is all darkblue blood and that can not be said from the other line with "Prince Cory" born out of wedlock. In that sense Maria Vladimirovna's pretension is superior.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by AristoCat

She meets the requirements of being of a royal line, but bluntly put, they're all largely German and allegedly there's a residue of resentment because of WWII against Germans.



I admit I'm shocked at the fact that he had a child out of wedlock via a mistress; I was shocked when I heard about it and frankly it was a surprise to know that he ended upeven having a mistress in the first place.

There are two Romanovs considering themselves a successor with a child out of wedlock:
- Rostislav Rostislavovich Romanov (1985) has a son with a (former) girlfriend. His son Michael (2013) is therefore not in line of succession but dad himself considers him a Prince Romanov;
- Nicholas Nicholayevich Romanov (1968) has a son with a (former) girlfriend. His son Cory (1994) is therefore not in line of succession but also this dad himself considers him a Prince Romanov.



It is hollow when the rivalling branch dares to doubt the suitability of Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhranskaya, discussing if she was meeting the requirements exactly or not. I am okay with that but not while the "rivals" themselves all, one by one, have thrown all possible standards out of the window. Come on, where is the reciprocity in the blaming here? Do the rivals themselves have any stand to criticize the Ebenbürtigkeit of Princess Leonida?

[Warren]

Originally Posted by AristoCat

She meets the requirements of being of a royal line, but bluntly put, they're all largely German and allegedly there's a residue of resentment because of WWII against Germans.

Ah, an acknowledgement that the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna has the superior royal claim, but then you immediately attempt to discount it by moving the goalposts.

I'm sure there remains a great deal of resentment in Russia (and elsewhere) against what Germany/Germans inflicted upon the country and its people during WWII, but that has little relevance to who carries the mantle of Headship of the Romanov dynasty.

[Duc_et_Pair]

I can understand when the one branch says that for an example the marriage of Grand Duke Roman Petrovich Romanov with Countess Praskiova Sheremeteva or the marriage of Grand Duke Andrey Alexandrovich Romanov with Donna Elisabetta of the dukes Sasso Ruffo are 100% dynastic in case the marriage with Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhranskaya is seen as dynastic. D'accord... then the two blue-blooded marriages can have a catfight with the other blue-blooded marriage.

But how can the other branch ever dispute if Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhranskaya was yes or no exactly meeting the dynastic requirements when they themselved have married partners as Miss Kathleen Norris, Miss Zoetta Leisy, Miss Lizzy Flores, Miss Christina Ipsen, Miss Pamela Kuzinowski, etc.? I am really fine with that but there is absurdity in claiming that the other branch is "not meeting the requirements" (not deep blue-blooded enough) while the own branch has the one break after the other break of the dynastic marriage requirements. Allez....

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Sure, the supporters regard her as dynastical and the non-supporters do not. But when you see her line of succession (Russia, Leiningen, Prussia) one can not deny it is all darkblue blood and that can not be said from the other line with "Prince Cory" born out of wedlock. In that sense Maria Vladimirovna's pretension is superior.

I think the strength of Maria's claim lies more in the fact her father was unmarried when he became Head of the Imperial House. Since only the Tsar could determine whether any marriage was equal or not, obviously Vladimir declared his own marriage as dynastic.

Vladimir also was the last surviving male dynast when he died in 1992. Maria married equally and she is the senior male-line descendant of Alexander II.

[Benjamin]

Cory Romanov died at the age of 3 in 1998 in quite tragic circumstances.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

Cory Romanov died at the age of 3 in 1998 in quite tragic circumstances.

Ow I missed that in the Romanov genealogical tree, his death was not mentioned,. What happened to the young boy?

[DWC]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

But how can the other branch ever dispute if Princess Leonida Georgievna Bagration-Moukhranskaya was yes or no exactly meeting the dynastic requirements when they themselved have married partners as Miss Kathleen Norris, Miss Zoetta Leisy, Miss Lizzy Flores, Miss Christina Ipsen, Miss Pamela Kuzinowski, etc.? I am really fine with that but there is absurdity in claiming that the other branch is "not meeting the requirements" (not deep blue-blooded enough) while the own branch has the one break after the other break of the dynastic marriage requirements. Allez....

I think the worst that the older members of the rival branch have said is that Princess Leonida was no more equal than their own mothers who also came from the Russian nobility. The headship of the other line is based on their interpretation of the House Laws and an Imperial Ukase from 1911, believing that only Grand Duke’s have to marry equally and that Princes of Russia could marry people of “good standing” and transmit their rights to their children.

For this reason Prince Nicholas Romanovich assumed the headship of the Imperial House after Vladimir’s death instead of his cousin Prince Paul Romanovsky-Ilyinsky, who although senior by primogeniture because his father Dimitri was a Grand Duke and married unequally he could not transmit succession rights to his children.

So I believe Prince Nicholas Romanovich and the other Romanov’s, although they probably aren't very fond of her, regard their cousin Maria as a Princess of Russia as they only recognised her father by his birth title Prince of Russia. And as a Prince of Russia he married a woman of “good standing”.

[branchg]

Nicholas Romanovich's interpretation of the Pauline Laws is ridiculous. While it's true Nicholas II issued a Ukase allowing Princes and Princesses of the Imperial Blood to marry unequally (with the approval of the Emperor), he made it clear these individuals were required to relinquish their succession rights beforehand and their children would not be dynasts.

The Laws also required dynasts to seek and receive permission of the Emperor before marrying, something Nicholas Romanovich's father, Prince Roman, failed to do. That resulted in the automatic loss of succession rights.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Maybe, following the most rigid interpretation and without an Emperor to allow exceptions, we can say that all Russian dynasts have outmanoeuvred themselves with their marriages? Result: there are no dynasts anymore?



With accepting the union with Princess Leonida as dynastic, following the "Germanic" system that when not Ebenbürtig (= of equal rank) at least it should be Standesgemäß (= belonging to the same level in society) then also the unions with the Countess Praskiova Sheremeteva and with Donna Elisabetta of the dukes Sasso Ruffo were dynastic too. The descendants of the last two ladies however all married not Standesgemäß.

Then the line of Maria Vladimirovna and her son remains superior (and after them Leiningen and Prussia) because they are all Standesgemäß. It will collapse down when Grand Duke Georgy does not meet his mother's standards, which are the base for her pretension....

[branchg]

All of the current descendants are morganatic and there are no surviving dynasts under the Pauline Laws. Maria is more or less accepted as Head of the Imperial House on the basis of the fact her father alone had the right to accept any marriage as equal or not, she was raised Orthodox, her mother was born Orthodox, and she married equally.

The other descendants are not in compliance with the Laws on many counts, while Maria is only questionable in terms of whether her mother should be considered royal. It seems reasonable to say Leonida was of sufficient rank for Vladimir to declare her equal.

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Ow I missed that in the Romanov genealogical tree, his death was not mentioned,. What happened to the young boy?

He died at the hands of his mother's lover after the divorce of his parents.

Russia

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Benjamin

He died at the hands of his mother's lover after the divorce of his parents.

Russia

I found this: "Young Nick, who lives in San Diego, has been married and divorced twice. He had a son, Cory Christopher, born in 1994, by his first wife, Lisa. After their divorce, she moved with Cory and her boyfriend, Richard Tiarks, to Memphis, Tennessee. On January 5, 1998, Tiarks killed the little boy, and was sentenced to 15 years in prison."

[Lee-Z]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

I found this: "Young Nick, who lies in San Diego, has been married and divorced twice. He had a son, Cory Christopher, born in 1994, by his first wife, Lisa. After their divorce, she moved with Cory and her boyfriend, Richard Tiarks, to Memphis, Tennessee. On January 5, 1998, Tiarks killed the little boy, and was sentenced to 15 years in prison."

Oh...how incredibely horrible and sad....

[Benjamin]

Royal Russia News: Legitimist Addresses Succession Issues

[eya]

Kiribati mulls proposal to 'restore Russian monarchy' - BBC News

"Most Russians do not want monarchy to be restored in Russia. As many as 68 percent of respondents said that they were opposed to having a czar on the throne in Russia.Most Russians consider republic to be the most optimal form of government "

Most Russians opposed to monarchy - PravdaReport

[Blog Real]

Putin opposes restoring monarchy in Russia

Russian President Vladimir Putin is not in favor of a debate over the return of the monarchy, the Kremlin said on Wednesday, completing a century after the abdication of the last tsar, Nicholas II.


"In the last five years, (Putin) has been asked several times about this issue and has had to respond in one context or another. Putin is unthinkingly faced with similar ideas, "Kremlin spokesman Dmitri Peskov told reporters on the advisability of restoring the monarchy to Russia.

Shortly before, the head of the annexed Crimea, Sergei Axionov, assured that "Russia needs the monarchy".

"We do not need a democracy like the one promoted by the Western media. We have our traditional, orthodox values. Under the present conditions, in which we face an external enemy, democracy remains. I refer to this debauchery that many understand as democracy, "said the leader of the Crimea.

Peskov commented that Axionov's words reflect only his personal opinion and joked that "there can be no monarchy in a certain region of Russia."

One hundred years ago, the last monarch of the Romanov dynasty renounced the throne, after the February Revolution was able to bring together workers, bourgeois and soldiers on the same side, and demonstrators hoisted a red flag in the royal palace as they sang the Marseillaise and the word " republic".

From then on, the tsarism had its days numbered, but no one imagined that the events would end with the arrival to the power of the Bolsheviks in October of that same year and the firing of the royal family in 1918.

After the fall of the Soviet Union, the Russian Orthodox Church sanctified the royal family and both Boris Yeltsin, the first democratically elected president in Russian history, and Putin, were participants in the new creed.

However, there are few Russians who would support the restoration of the monarchy, and in fact a third of the population still values ​​positively the work of Soviet leaders such as Lenin, whose mausoleum still remains in Red Square, and Stalin.

Putin se opõe a restituir monarquia na Rússia | EXAME.com - Negócios, economia, tecnologia e carreira

[victor1319]

I wonder, what that means:"opposed to having a czar on the throne in Russia".

Are they against a Czar, an autocratic ruler?
Are they against a constitutional monarchy?

"Monarchy"...

As a German, I don't want an Emperor to rule alone and autocratic over Germany neither... but: Our Georg Friedrich of Prussia would be much better, than the federal Presidents we have here in Germany as ceremonial kings!

[AristoCat]

I think the Romanovs have to be the only dethroned family that is still arguing over succession issues. Rostislav is considered the Head of the House of Romanov by everyone but Maria and Georgi.