Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

[NGalitzine]

Presumably the party or government putting forward the idea of restoration would have a candidate selected to use as a symbol of the future monarchy before deciding to have a vote on restoration. It would make more sense than continually going back to the polls.

[Artemisia]

Alternatively, the polls could contain an additional question such as "Should the Romanov dynasty be restored"? If the answer is "yes", than presumably the Russian Government or the political party who came up with the referendum in the first place, will lend their support to one candidate from the House of Romanov. If the answer is "no", then Russians will get more headache than they had anticipated.

[kell]

Russian Monarchists launch own party, Romanovs protest — RT
Russian Monarchists launch own party, Romanovs protest

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Published: 19 July, 2012, 18:25




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TAGS:Russia, Politics, Law, History, Opposition


Russian Monarchists have registered their own political party seeking the revival of the Russian Empire, but the head of the Romanov Imperial House is opposed saying that it would add strife to the society.
Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna Romanov believes “a monarch must unite people” while the establishment of such a party only leads to disintegration, Romanovs’ attorney German Lukyanov was quoted as saying by Russian news portal Lifenews.
The time for a monarchist regime in the country has not come yet and a revival of the empire is currently impossible, he said.
“No parties can help in this full-time job since a monarch can come to the throne only by the will of one’s people and God,” Lukyanov stated.
However, the head of the party, former MP Anton Bakov, stated that the Duchess’ opinion will not stop the party in its desire to restore the Great Russian Empire.
If Maria Vladimirovna does not want the Romanov Dynasty to come back to power in Russia, there are other descendants and representatives of the Tsar’s family “who will surely” support us, he told Life News.
On Wednesday, the Russian Ministry of Justice reported on its website that the Monarchist party was officially registered on June 25 this year.
Its chairman, 46-year-old millionaire Bakov is known for having founded a virtual state – the Russian Empire – located on a coral atoll called Suvorov near the Cook Islands in the Pacific Ocean. According to its website (russianempire.org), those willing to become nationals of the state, may apply for a passport via e-mail for the price of just 1000 roubles (about $US 31).

[branchg]

In other words, right now there continues to be a ruthless autocracy, not real democracy, in Russia and Maria is not going to be used as a tool by some billionaire hungry for glory.

[kell]

i am gonna stay away from commenting on that i m not gonna take sides in the maria vs family thing

[Warren]

Posts discussing the presidency of Vladimir Putin that have no relevance to the thread topic have been removed.

[Ceallach]

Its chairman, 46-year-old millionaire Bakov is known for having founded a virtual state – the Russian Empire – located on a coral atoll called Suvorov near the Cook Islands in the Pacific Ocean. According to its website (russianempire.org), those willing to become nationals of the state, may apply for a passport via e-mail for the price of just 1000 roubles (about $US 31).[/QUOTE]

I'd be checking his credentials as a millionaire, cause it sounds more like a money-making scheme to me, and he is just using the monarchy.
I wonder what those $31 so-called passports look like too.
No wonder she does not want to be involved.
But just look at the lesser royals that use their status to make a buck through reality tv etc. - he knows he can find a romanov willing to sell their soul for fame or fortune. He does not care if is the right one, as they are just a pawn in a money making scheme.
My money is on him hooking up with this so-called Russian royal.

Francis Mathew: Russian-Scottish 'royal' seeks TV love match in The Batchelor Ukraine | Mail Online

[Ceallach]

Francis is Tsar Nicholas's sister Xenia's eldest son Andrei's grandson via his youngest daughter Olga. Francis's uncle Andrei, who has 3 sons, has the best claim amongst Xenia's descendants. Rostislav, who has made a claim, is the grandson of Xenia's fifth son Rostislav, so Francis and Rostislav are second cousins.

You can see parts of the bachelor ukraine on you tube too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=wAaI110IcZ0

[branchg]

None of Xenia's current descendants are dynasts under the Pauline Laws. Her sons all married morganatically and their children and grandchildren have no rights.

In addition, Xenia is in the female-line of Alexander III. There are female-line descendants of Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich who take precedence, even if Maria Vladimirovna is disqualified, through Grand Duke Vladimir's daughter, Helen Vladimirovna, or through Vladimir's sisters, Princesses Kira and Marie, who all married equally.

[Ceallach]

I never suggested any of Xenia's descendants took precedence over Maria or that they were dynasts. I suggested that this monarchy project of this so-called millionaire seemed like a scam and was rightfully rejected by Maria.

He implied he would just find another Romanov descendant for his monarchy project. I meerly suggested Francis Matthew would be the most likely to get involved with this guy, although his mom too has done reality tv based her ancestry too. Plus Rostislav acts like he, not Maria, should be the claimnant. Not only does Rostislav not have a claim, but is preceeded by many other descendants of Xenia. Although any claim this family once had, before the morgantic marriages, was at the time through Xenia's husband/cousin Michael.

What I was saying is this seems like a scam and I could see him going after one of these others since Maria did not fall for it; since they do use their family connection via Xenia to the Tsars to get attention and work. I feel he does not care about legitimacy of the candidate but about making a buck and that Francis might be the same way.

I was not giving Francis credibility, I was slagging him.

[NGalitzine]

I don't think any of the Romanov descendents have an undisputed claim to the succession. While highly unlikely ever to happen, if a monarchist party should somehow get elected in significant enough numbers to form a government or even hold the balance of power there is no reason why they should not select Rostislav or some other Romanov as candidate for Tsar and Maria and her son would be shoved aside. Rostislav at least lives and works in Russia so would have some familiarity with day to day life in the country.
I would put the odds of a restoration at only slightly better than Monaco becoming a military super power so I hope none of the Romanovs start getting measured for their coronation robes just yet.

[branchg]

The vast majority of Russians couldn't care less about the Romanovs or restoring the monarchy. It isn't going to happen.

The focus should be on building the rule of law and strong democractic institutions that support the will of the people. They are tired of autocracy and corruption.

[COUNTESS]

Why would they ever want to restore a dreadful monarchy, after the years of Communism, which were awful, too. Hopefully, they we would want a decent, democratic government.

[Daz_Voz]

I met Rostislav quite accidentally while in Moscow. Didn't have any idea who he was until a friend told me. He is really quite adorable, especially when trying to speak Russian. I think he may add to the Romanov popularity in Russia in times to come. There is a strong political void right now; there is Putin, and basically there is no one else. Monarchy could be the answer to Russia's troubles.
I daresay Prince Nicholas Romanov (and by default, his presumed eventual heir, Prince Rostislav) have far more realistic chances to the Throne than Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and Prince Georgi. I wish it weren't so, because as an Armenian I have nothing but warmest feelings to our Georgian brothers (and the Grand Duchess's mother was Georgian), but there is no way Russians would ever accept a ruler who is 1/4 Georgian and 1/2 German.

I've just gone through the charts and if I understand matters correctly (and there's a good chance I don't), then if we set aside Maria's claim, Nicholas Romanovich, Dmitri Romanovich and Andrew Andreevich are the first three in line. After their passing we could anticipate that Andreevich's sons would be in line: they themselves have no sons but are not yet at an age when we would rule out the possibility.
And THEN we have the descendants of Rostislav Alexandrovich: Rostislav, Nikita, Nicholas, Daniel. Am I on the right page?

[Artemisia]

Prince Nicholas and Dimitri Romanovich are not in the line of succession to Maria Vladimirovna.

If we accept the marriage of Maria Vladimirovna's parents as equal (non-morganatic) and in accordance with all Romanov marriage rules and laws, then the one (and at this point, only) person in line of succession to the Grand Duchess is Prince Georgi Mikhailovich (and his descendants).
If Georgi dies without legitimate heirs, then the claims would probably be inherited by Prince Karl Vladimir of Yugoslavia - the nearest male Orthodox relative of the Grand Duchess who complies with all household rules. Prince Karl Vladimir has no legitimate male issue; his younger brother, Dimitri, does have children, but his marriage was morganatic, so they are ineligible. Next in the line would be Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia. The Line of Succession to Prince Karl Vladimir looks like this:
- Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
- Prince Dimitri of Yugoslavia
- Prince Michael of Yugoslavia
- Prince Sergius of Yugoslavia
- Prince Dushan of Yugoslavia
None of these Princes have legitimate male issue as of now.

The nearest non-Orthodox male relative of the Grand Duchess is Karl Emich, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen. Assuming he joins the Orthodox Church, his claims would be preferable to those of Prince Karl Vladimir. In that case, the line of succession to Prince Karl Emich would look like this:
- Prince Emich of Leiningen
- Andreas, Prince of Leiningen
- Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen
- Prince Hermann of Leiningen


The marriage of Prince Nicholas Romanovich's parents almost certainly did violate Romanov marriage rules. However, Prince Nicholas claims he couldn't have lost succession rights because his father was not actually required to marry a fellow royal: according to him, the Romanov laws only required Grand Dukes (sons and male-line grandsons of the Emperor) to marry women of equal rank. Since his father was only a Prince (a great-grandson of the Emperor), that presumably gave him a freedom to marry whoever he wished. I should say few agree with this interpretation of Romanov marriage law. Nevertheless, assuming as senior male-line descendant of Nicholas I (*), Prince Nicholas is indeed the rightful heir, then the line of succession to him looks like this:
- Prince Dimitri Romanovich
- Prince Andrew Andreevich
- Prince Alexis Andreevich
- Prince Peter Andreevich
- Prince Andrew Andreevich
- Prince Rostislav Rostislavovich
- Prince Nikita Rostislavovich
- Prince Nicholas Christopher Nikolaievich
- Prince Daniel Joseph Nikolaievich
- Prince Jackson Daniel Danilovich

* Prince Nicholas is not, in fact, the genealogically senior descendant of Nicholas I: he is descended from one of Nicholas I's younger sons, however there are several living descendants of the Emperor's older sons. However, he is the senior-most descendant to have kept his succession rights (which is arguable).

[branchg]

The senior male-line genealogical morganaut is Dimitri Ilinsky, the eldest male grandson of Grand Duke Dimitri from his morganatic marriage to Audrey Emery.

Maria is considered to be the Head of the Imperial House by virtue of the fact her father was the last dynast and undisputed Head of the House. While her parents' marriage is arguably morganatic under the Pauline Laws, the fact is her father, as de-jure Tsar, had the sole right to determine whether any marriage was in compliance with the Laws.

Nicholas Romanov's interpretation of the Pauline Laws ignores the fact that a marriage of a dynast and a person not of corresponding rank conferred no succession rights on the issue of such marriage. In other words, the Emperor could recognize an unequal marriage for a Prince of the Imperial Blood, but their children would remain morganatic with no succession rights whatsoever.

Nicholas' father, Prince Roman, married a Russian noble who was not of equal rank. In addition, he married without permission of Grand Duke Cyril, which under the Pauline Laws, automatically results in the loss of succession rights. Nicholas is definitely a morganaut and has no princely title.

[Grandduchess24]

Grand duchess Maria pavlovna and her brother, grand duke Dmitri pavlovich have defendants that are still living today and some even live in the US like count lennart Bernadotte and paul romanoff-illynsky's grandchildren but only some have a royal title.

[Daz_Voz]

as de-jure Tsar,

What does that even mean? De jure there is no Tsar, the monarchy having been abolished under Russian law.

[Ceallach]

The nearest non-Orthodox male relative of the Grand Duchess is Karl Emich, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen. Assuming he joins the Orthodox Church, his claims would be preferable to those of Prince Karl Vladimir. In that case, the line of succession to Prince Karl Emich would look like this:
- Prince Emich of Leiningen
- Andreas, Prince of Leiningen
- Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen
- Prince Hermann of Leiningen

The marriage of Prince Nicholas Romanovich's parents almost certainly did violate Romanov marriage rules. However, Prince Nicholas claims he couldn't have lost succession rights because his father was not actually required to marry a fellow royal: according to him, the Romanov laws only required Grand Dukes (sons and male-line grandsons of the Emperor) to marry women of equal rank. Since his father was only a Prince (a great-grandson of the Emperor), that presumably gave him a freedom to marry whoever he wished. I should say few agree with this interpretation of Romanov marriage law.[/QUOTE]

This is mostly correct. Prince Nicholas is claiming house laws do not apply to princes (great-grandsons of tsars), only grand dukes (sons, grandsons) thus leaving him still in succession which is both incorrect and crazy.

However, Karl Emich's first and second marriages would be considered morgantic thus excluding him and his son Emich. I believe it is worded in such a way that when there are no male dynasts left it then passes in the female line to male and female members. Otherwise it would be George not Maria who is the present claimnant to the throne.

Thus the next one after George would be Karl Emich's daughter from his first (non-morgantic) marriage - Cecelia, then Andreas, Ferdinand, Hermann, Olga, etc. if they converted to Orthodoxy.

Otherwise Karl of Serbia, Dmitri and then possibly their legitimized sister Lavinia (not sure if acceptable, but i believe there is presidence that is if she is orthodox too), then sons Andrej and Luca, followed by Alexander etc.

Rostislav's claim is based on being descended from Nicholas's siser Xenia and thus closer related than Maria and Nicholas (but not closest hereditarily) but closest living in Russia.

[branchg]

If we assume that Maria Vladimirovna is ineligible for succession due to her mother's non-royal status, the Pauline Laws state the throne passes through the female-line of the last reigning Emperor if all male-lines are exhausted of dynasts.

In this scenario, Vladimir Kirillovich's line would be defunct with his death in 1992. The next potential lines would be through his sisters, Marie and Kira, who both married equally into the Hohenzollern and Leiningen royal houses. However, the Pauline Laws state the monarch, the heir and the heir's mother all must be Orthodox in order to qualify. That rules out both Marie and Kira's descendants.

Returning to Grand Duke Cyril, the succession would pass through his closest female relative meeting the criteria of the Pauline Laws, which is his sister, Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna. She married equally to Prince Nicholas of Greece in an Orthodox union and had three daughters.

The eldest child, Princess Olga, married equally to Prince Paul of Yugoslavia in another Orthodox union. Their eldest son, Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia, is arguably the correct heir to the throne today by the strictest interpetation of the Pauline Laws.