Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

[branchg]

Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi

Isn't it through Cyril that the present Vladimirovichi get their claim? So if that same Cyril betrayed the family he loses any claim to the throne and that disqualifies his descendants as well including his son, granddaughter, and great grandson. Plus it seems like both the Vladimirovichi and Nicholaevichi are playing pick and choose with what laws they want to go by that gives them a claim. Maria's father was not the official holder of any title of Tsar so how can he change the succession law to suit the fact that he has no son?

Cyril never betrayed the imperial family and his position as Head of the Imperial House was recognized by all of the surviving dynasts publicly (except for Grand Dukes Nicholas and Peter). The Pauline Laws were clear he was next in-line (as the next eligible male descendant of Alexander II) and his parents were of an equal and Orthodox marriage.

Vladimir did not change the Pauline Laws regarding the succession. His daughter, Maria, would inherit the rights if there were no remaining eligible male dynasts, which is the case. The other descendants are all morganatic and many married without permission from Cyril or Vladimir.

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Cyril did betray the family, Nicholas was Tsar and Cyril sided with the revolution against him. And again I will say you can't get the Tsar's permission to marry when there is no Tsar. A man calling himself Tsar doesn't mean he is one, especially when there is no Russia to rule.
I think both sides are playing pick and choose with the rules that best suit them. The Vladimir clan ignored Cyril's betrayal of the family and his mothers religion when he was born.
I don't even support the Nickolay as the Pretender; I support Rostislav because he is closest to Nicholas II and descended from Alexander III. He also will bring in the new and throw out those archaic laws like no succession through women and morgantic marriages. More than likely IF ever there is a restoration of the monarchy, Russia will choose who they want and not leave it up to either subclan.

[Cory]

The Succession is clear and only who does not know the rules refuse to recognize Grand Duchess Maria.
Grand Duke Kirill did not betray anybody but was a symbol of hope for the russian in exile.

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I assume the people who refuse to recognize the rules also happens to be you yourself. If you want to ignore what Cyril did, thats fine; but history won't forget that he sided with the revolution over his family and Emperor. Plus those same laws that Maria claims to go by specifically says the succession can't pass through a woman, which she is; which means the Vladmir clan ends with her.

[NotAPretender]

Originally Posted by Cory

The Succession is clear and only who does not know the rules refuse to recognize Grand Duchess Maria.
Grand Duke Kirill did not betray anybody but was a symbol of hope for the russian in exile.

There is no universal right or wrong; there are hundreds of shades of grey on this.

Kirill was not symbol of hope for all Russian exiles, not by a long shot. I'm 100% certain that he was not for Maria Feodorovna.

Your assertions are offensive, as you are insulting to those who hold an opposite position from your opinion. And make no mistake: it is your opinion, not an absolute.

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I say the Romanov's start marrying each other. I believe a few, if not all of them, are distant enough in relation to not cause any problems. Just to attempt to put this darn family rivalry to rest (if there ever was serious talk of restoration) some of these 2nd and 3rd cousins should bite the bullet and marry each other.
As for the revolution, it did come about slowly like most revolutions. I still believe it could have been prevented if Alexander II hadn't have been murdered. But I distinguish between the revolution of 1917 and the mass murders of 1918.

[Cory]

The Russian Orthodox Church recognizes Grand Duchess Maria as Head of the Imperial Family.

[genegirl99]

Didn't Cyril pull the guards from Tsarskeyo Selo when Alexandra was nursing her sick children? So Alexandra and Maria went out to negotiate with whoever was left. I think it was mentioned in the Massie book.

Pg 150-151 in Flight of the Romanovs talks about Cyril offering his services to the Duma wearing a red rosette and his troops carrying red banners instead of the Imperial Flag.

Also wasn't one of the conditions for GD Vladimir to marry Miechen was that he had to surrender his offsprings right to the throne because she refused to convert to the Orthodox Church at the time of their marriage, meaning their children would have been born to a non-Othodox mother? Maybe I'm pulling this out of my butt....I saw a transcribed document saying this on the AP forums...

[Cory]

When Nicholas II abdicated in his name and in the name of Alexej the dynastic rights pass to Nicholas' brother and than to Grand Duke Kirill.Nobody said Grand Duke Kirill was not a dynast because his mother hadn't convert to orthodoxy at the moment of her marriage.

[Daria_S]

Originally Posted by genegirl99

Didn't Cyril pull the guards from Tsarskeyo Selo when Alexandra was nursing her sick children? So Alexandra and Maria went out to negotiate with whoever was left. I think it was mentioned in the Massie book.

Pg 150-151 in Flight of the Romanovs talks about Cyril offering his services to the Duma wearing a red rosette and his troops carrying red banners instead of the Imperial Flag.

Also wasn't one of the conditions for GD Vladimir to marry Miechen was that he had to surrender his offsprings right to the throne because she refused to convert to the Orthodox Church at the time of their marriage, meaning their children would have been born to a non-Othodox mother? Maybe I'm pulling this out of my butt....I saw a transcribed document saying this on the AP forums...

I remember reading about the fact that Kyril made one of regiments swear loyalty while the Empress and Grand Duchess Maria were negotiating with the revolutionaries. I read that in Rodzinskii's book ('The Last Tsar), as well as Massie book ('Nicholas and Alexandra). I'd say that alone pretty much took him and his family out of the succession. Betrayal is not something that should be rewarded, especially with a position of power.

[Cory]

The Succession to the Throne is automatic so after Nicholas Ii, his son and his brother, Grand Duke Kirill became Head of the Imperial House.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi

I say the Romanov's start marrying each other. I believe a few, if not all of them, are distant enough in relation to not cause any problems.

Well the Windsors did that and look what happened to poor Prince Charles who looked a bit like Dumbo. .. .

[Daria_S]

Originally Posted by Russophile

Well the Windsors did that and look what happened to poor Prince Charles who looked a bit like Dumbo. .. .

I thought he looked closer to the Count on Sesame Street .

Errr....back to topic.

[XeniaCasaraghi]

Ok, ok, they only do it for awhile, not as long as the Windsors. Plus Andrew came out looking good.

[Lenora]

To begin with,I do think that the restoration of monarchy in Russia could be actually one of the last needed things,but certainly not the least one,the form of constitutional monarchy being very appropriate,but I very much doubt it ever happens.The active groups who want monarchy back are mainly based on religious beliefs and predictions and they do not have any concrete figure of appropriate Tzar.Of course there are the others more concrete,but most people are indifferent.
The legitimacy of actual heirs is quite disputable.After Nicholas II abdicated,the heir was his son Alexei.But Nicholas abdicated for himself and his son(dubious).Next in line was his younger brother,Michail.He said he would rule if the people wanted him to,they didn't and in result he abdicated.The first Communist leader,Vladimir Lenin,was a perfect jurist and after ordered killing Tsar and his family he knew very well that there is no direct heir and would be a lot of confusions,as far as the female primogeniture(from Nicholas's sisters) was never accepted by Russian laws and the Nicholas's only brother Michail had a rather scandalous marriage.
Nicholas's cousin,Grand Duke Cyril Vladimirovich ,then proclaimed himself the Head of the Imperial family.Here the dispute began.For example,there was a question of legality of his marriage.He didn't have the approval,he and his wife were banished for a time.Of course they were eventually allowed back.His descendant is GD Maria Vladimirovna.The other Romanovs do not agree and dispute her claims.
I think Russia doesn't want them back ...but the one who seemed to have the most chances is Prince Michael of Kent,who actually speaks Russian and understands very well Russian affairs and reality.Of course this is more or less utopia.
In addition to all, these were old rules of succession,now Russia changed and the rules of succession could be regarded differently as well.The descendants of sisters of the last emperor of Russia are taken into account as well.The situation is rather different from,let's say,the last king of Romania,Mihai,who has living descendants.
Besides this,the sister of Nicholas II,Olga who lived her last days in Canada,her son Tihon Kulikovsky Romanov and her grand-daughter Olga Kulykovsky never accepted the GD Maria Vladimirovna and her son Georgi as the potential heirs.On one of her last visits to Russia,Olga Kulikovsky said that she could accept the others ,but not Grand Duchess.
Of course the most important are not disputes ,but the desire of people to see the Romanovs back on the throne.GD Maria Vladimirovna with Georgi participate in many official events,but they did not try to get closer to the people,to participate in some humanitarian projects or to open some study grants for gifted students.The people only know about Georgi's affairs with Nornikel and participation at many gala events with a lot of gloss and caviar.That is why many people who know about them,do not accept them as heirs and prefer more others or nobody.
Line of succession to the former Russian throne - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pauline Laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Alexander Palace Time Machine - Romanov and Russian History

[AristoCat]

PUt frankly, Cyril did backstab the Family by leaving them unguarded when the Revolution was in full swing. The least he could have done was get the Imperial Family out of the Palace (where they were being held hostage) and to real safety. That would have been the ultimate expression of loyalty and frankly I think the fate of the Imperial Family would have been much different.

As for Maria, she needs to stop being so virulently hostile to the rest of the ROmanovs and there are heirs of the sisters of Nicholas who have a much better claim through their much more direct descent. In terms of royal inheritance, it's usually the direct heir, and then the next eldest sibling and their children. Even with Salic law and as a result, I would have to state that the children and grandchildren of GD Xenia are that much more legitimate.

[Cory]

Nobody can claim to have dynastic rights if descends from a morganatic marriage.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi

Ok, ok, they only do it for awhile, not as long as the Windsors. Plus Andrew came out looking good.

Ooooh he's let his looks slide. He's got moobs now you know.

[Johann Salvator]

In order for a constitutional monarchy to work there must be a democracy and a majority of people wanting democracy. Is not the case of Russia, they heve never known democracy, human rights and good governance. I strongly recommend the following: BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - Russia: The Wild East

[XeniaCasaraghi]

I've heard some say that Andy isn't as good looking as he used to be, but at least he didn't peak early like Charles Edward and William.