Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

[kell]

issue is people forget her great grand mother didnt convert till much later after her son kryil was born and was considor as a possible person in line after the issue of alexis illness then kryill married his cousin and a divorcee and then maries father marrying a divorcee aswell if you ask a orthodex people to accept you as a monarch then your linage should also reflect the spirit of russian pride honor and stick to every facit of the law which her lineage is in question off but i said my 2 cents on the matter

 

[branchg]

Maria Pavlovna's religion was not an issue and Nicholas II recognized her conversion to Orthodoxy in 1905 with a published accolade. Her husband and their children were all listed as dynasts in the Court Circular.

Cyril's marriage to Victoria Melita was an issue at first as he had married without permission of the Tsar (which automatically disqualifies you from the succession) and the Tsarina disliked her former sister-in-law. The cousin issue was irrelevant because the Tsar could waive any religious issues, not the Church.

Nicholas eventually rescinded their exiles and announced Victoria was granted the title of HIH Grand Duchess Victoria Fedorovna and their daughters, Marie and Kira, were recognized as dynasts in the Court Circular as Princesses of the Imperial Blood. Victoria had already converted to Orthodoxy during their exile in France.

Divorce is not objectionable under Orthodoxy, so that's no issue either.

 

[vorky]

I have questions

1.Can "emperor in exile" (GD Kirill, GD Vladimir, GDs Maria) amend the Pauline Law?
2.Were GD Kirill and GD Vladimir respected by all dynasts as Head of House?
3.Can "emperor in exile" approve marriage as equal? If yes, why did not they (GD Kirill, GD Vladimir) do that? I suppose that GD Vladimir (If I am right) approved his marriage as equall. Why did not he and his father do the same with other dynast´s marriages? Did they want to control power in their hands? In my opinion it is not clever because if you have more dynasts there is better change that family will not die out one day. Imagine that GD Georgi will not have children. After his and his mother´s death there will be no dynast.

 

[Lenora]

1.Yes,basically they can amend this law.
2.No,they were never accepted by the descendants of Great Duchess Olga Alexandrovna,the sister of the last Tsar and by the other descendants of Xenia Alexandrovna,here could be the other representatives of Russian nobility in exile as well
3.Yes,they can.They probably want to keep the traditional views and to remain the official pretenders

 

[Cory]

Grand Dukes Kirill and Vladimir have never changer the Laws of the Imperial House.
Grand Duke Vladimir's marriage was equal because Grand Duchess Leonida was a member of the Royal House of Georgia.

 

[vorky]

2.No,they were never accepted by the descendants of Great Duchess Olga Alexandrovna,the sister of the last Tsar and by the other descendants of Xenia Alexandrovna,here could be the other representatives of Russian nobility in exile as well

Why? What was reason?

Was the reason marriage of GD Vladimir? Cory wrote that it was equal. IMO not every Romanov accepted that. Right? I read article about succesion mentioned earlier by someone.

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]Grand Duke Kirill married to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]Princess Victoria Melita[/FONT] of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Did someone dispute about her royal birth? Their marriage received Emperor´s approval according to the article I read.

Why are not ancestors of GD Maria Kirillovna considers as members of Imperial House of Romanovs? Possible reasons: morganic/ not approved marriage, members of House of Leiningen, spouse did not convert?

Did Princess Vera Constantinovna/ [FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]Princess Katherine of Russia[/FONT] have children?

That document from [FONT=Times New Roman,Times,Times NewRoman]11/24 October 1938[/FONT] is clear for me. Only descendants of equall marriage of these 13 dynasts could be considered as members of House of Romanov. Who are these descendants except GDs Maria Vladimirovna?

 

[branchg]

1.Yes,basically they can amend this law.
2.No,they were never accepted by the descendants of Great Duchess Olga Alexandrovna,the sister of the last Tsar and by the other descendants of Xenia Alexandrovna,here could be the other representatives of Russian nobility in exile as well
3.Yes,they can.They probably want to keep the traditional views and to remain the official pretenders

Olga had no children. Xenia's descendants all accepted Cyril and Vladimir were the rightful Heads of the Imperial House.

 

[MAfan]

Grand Duchess Olga had two sons from her second husband Nikolai Kulikowsky, Tikhon and Guri.

Xenia's descendants, as well as the other members of the Imperial Family, acknowledged Kirill and Vladimir as Heads of the Imperial House, but all them claimed that Vladimir's marriage to Princess Leonida Bagration-Mukhransky was morganatic and not equal, thus they didn't recognize Maria as Head of the Imperial House.

 

[vorky]

So then there are no members of Imperial House because all marriages were unequall. Right?

 

[branchg]

Xenia's descendants, as well as the other members of the Imperial Family, acknowledged Kirill and Vladimir as Heads of the Imperial House, but all them claimed that Vladimir's marriage to Princess Leonida Bagration-Mukhransky was morganatic and not equal, thus they didn't recognize Maria as Head of the Imperial House.

Correct. Which makes either Dimitri Ilinysky, grandson of Grand Duke Dimitri, or Nicholas Romanov, as Head of the Imperial House (the more senior male lines are now extinct of issue).

The rest of the family, including Dimitri, all recognize Nicholas as Head of the House.

 

[branchg]

So then there are no members of Imperial House because all marriages were unequall. Right?

Technically, they are just plain Romanovs, with Nicholas the acknowledged Head of the Family. The rights of succession and the throne are now long gone and the Russian government would chose whomever they wish to be a new Tsar.

 

[MAfan]

Since 1801 the Bagrations have been considered in Russia not as a non-reigning Royal House but as a bare aristocratic House; and in addition, the Bagration-Mukhransky branch was a collateral branch of the former Georgian Royal House, and that branch never reigned. Under this point of view, Bagration-Mukhransky Family had the very same status of other prominent Russian noble Houses, like Galitzine, Cheremetev, Chavchavadse, Yusupov, Golenishchev-Kutuzov, Vorontzov-Daschkov (and some of them had reigned over some Russian regions before Russia was unified).
The wives of several Romanov dynasts (in particular of Xenia Alexandrovna's sons) were born into some of the above listed noble Houses, but their marriages had been regarded as unequal.

Moving from the point that the Bagration-Mukhransky Family is equal to the other listed noble Houses:
A) if, like Grand Duke Vladimir declared, the Bagration-Mukhransky Family is equal to the Russian Imperial House, then also the other Houses are equal; so also the marriages of Xenia Alexandrovna's sons were equal and not morganatic. If this is true, then at Vladimir's death in 1992 Maria wasn't the only living dynast, but there were also male dynasts (Xenia's grandsons or the same Prince Nicholas Romanovic, whose mother was a Countess Cheremetev);
2) if all the above mentioned Houses, Bagration-Mukhransky included, are not equal to the Imperial House, then all the marriages of Romanov dynasts to members of these Houses are morganatic. As a consequence, nowadays there isn't anybody who can claim the Headship of the Imperial Family, because all the living Romanovs are descendants of morganatic marriages.

What Vladimir decided when he married to Leonida Bagration-Mukhransky was that the Bagration-Mukhransky Family is equal to the Imperial Family (despite in 1911 the marriage of a Princess of Russia to a Bagration-Mukhransky had been regarded by Nicholas II as morganatic); but at the same time all the other Houses had continued to be considered as unequal.

 

[Alexandrovich]

My opinion...If the Russian Imperial Restoration comes, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna will be back to the throne. Because she is the direct descendant of Tsar Nicholas II. I cheer her!!!

 

[Lenora]

How could she be the direct descendant of the last Tsar,when all his children died ,having been killed with him and his wife?

 

[vorky]

Technically, they are just plain Romanovs, with Nicholas the acknowledged Head of the Family. The rights of succession and the throne are now long gone and the Russian government would chose whomever they wish to be a new Tsar.

I agree. I would prefer public referendum not decision of government. Referendum is more legitimate. It is not good for Romanovs that they have disputes because if they want to rule Russia they have to be united. Of course there is public will as well

 

[branchg]

If all the above mentioned Houses, Bagration-Mukhransky included, are not equal to the Imperial House, then all the marriages of Romanov dynasts to members of these Houses are morganatic. As a consequence, nowadays there isn't anybody who can claim the Headship of the Imperial Family, because all the living Romanovs are descendants of morganatic marriages.

All of the present descendants in the male lines are morganatic, including Maria Vladimirovna. Given equality on that point, it seems reasonable that Maria did, in fact, succeed her father as Head of the Imperial House and has continued to serve the traditions diligently and with geniune faith.

The issue of who is really eligible for a non-existent throne is irrelevant in my view. Russia has no constitutional tradition and has continued to be ruled by a small elite that exploits the population for its own gain. Restoring the monarchy is not going to help Russia achieve true democracy or strengthen the rule of law.

The Romanovs are not loved in Russia, no matter whether they meet the requirements of the Pauline Laws or not. They are not viewed as Russian and the people would not accept any of them as Tsar. It would be given to someone else anyway.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

I contend that no one is a "dynast" any more so the true head of the Imperial House should be the one most closely related to Nicholas II.

 

[Cory]

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna was born in a clear equal marriage.Her mother was a Princess of Georgia belonging to one of the most ancient Royal Families in the world.It is true that between the beginning of the XIXth century till to the XXth century Georgia was occupied by the russian troops and its Royal Family was not recognized with the royal status by the Russian Empire.But nobody can say the Royal Family of George has the same rank with a russian aristocrat family.
There is no evidence Grand Duchess Maria is not the Head of the Imperial Family of Russia.The Laws of Succession (for who really study them) are quite clear.

http://www.royalhouseofgeorgia.ge/royal-house/dynasty

 

[branchg]

I contend that no one is a "dynast" any more so the true head of the Imperial House should be the one most closely related to Nicholas II.

The Russian Government and the Russian Orthodox Church both recognize Maria Vladimirovna as the Head of the Imperial House, while also maintaining good relations with the other Romanovs as well.

Most of the descendants are ordinary people just living their lives and really don't care at this point. It's all long over.

 

[Cory]

The Russian authorities and the Russian Orthodox Church mantain good relations also with descendants of morganatic marriages of the members of the Imperial House because these persons belong to the russian aristocracy and (some of them) are involved in different social and cultural projects.
We should keep in mind anyway when the Russian authorities and the Russian Orthodox Church speak about the nowadays Imperial Family they all recognize obviously Grand Duchess Maria and Grand Duke George.Even the European Royal Families invite at their official event the two members of the Imperial House.

 

[branchg]

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna was born in a clear equal marriage.Her mother was a Princess of Georgia belonging to one of the most ancient Royal Families in the world.It is true that between the beginning of the XIXth century till to the XXth century Georgia was occupied by the russian troops and its Royal Family was not recognized with the royal status by the Russian Empire.But nobody can say the Royal Family of George has the same rank with a russian aristocrat family.
There is no evidence Grand Duchess Maria is not the Head of the Imperial Family of Russia.The Laws of Succession (for who really study them) are quite clear.

Royal House of Georgia | Royal house | Dynasty

The Gruzinsky line is direct to the last reigning King of Georgia, not the Moukhransky, which has been junior and non-reigning for centuries. Leonida's line hasn't been royal for hundreds of years. The Russian noble houses, some of which were rulers in Belarus and other part of the Empire prior to Russification, were all subjects of the Tsar as well.

No one is saying Maria doesn't have a valid claim. The real issue is her claim is no better than anyone else who is also descended from a marriage between a dynast and a woman of the Russian nobility (including Nicholas Romanov). Given that point, she takes precedence after the senior male morganauts because she is a woman.

 

[Vasillisos Markos]

No one is saying Maria doesn't have a valid claim. The real issue is her claim is no better than anyone else who is also descended from a marriage between a dynast and a woman of the Russian nobility (including Nicholas Romanov). Given that point, she takes precedence after the senior male morganauts because she is a woman.

Thank you. That is the point I was trying to make but not as well as you. It seems to me that no one alive meets the requirements under the laws of succession and for the sake of lively discussion, if nothing else, we can discuss who should be the head of the deposed house. But it seems like some of us are perceived as beating our heads against the wall.

 

[Cory]

Grand Duchess Leonida descended from the serior line of the Royal House of Georgia( there were different branches and different little georgian Kingdoms until the late XVIIIth century) .She belonged to a Royal House that is more ancient than the Romanovs.Before and after the russian occupation nobody denied the royal status of the Bagratides.Even today we speak about the possibility of restoring on the Throne of Georgia Prince Davod of Bagration, one of Grand Duchess Leonida's close relatives.
All the campaigns who try to deny the Headship of the Imperial House for Grand Duchess Maria do not serve at anything because are without serious reasons and are made usually by persons who have a special sympathy for one or another of the descendants of morganatic marriage.
Despite these controversies the russian state in the last 20 years have always given the specific respect to grand Duchess Maria in accordance with the traditional imperial laws, with the voice of russian orthodoxy .
If Monarchy will be restored ever in Russia Grand Duchess Maria, Grand Duke George or their descendants will have to prove they deserve their heritage.

http://www.riuo.org/RussianImperialSuccession/russianimperialsuccession.html

http://www.chivalricorders.org/royalty/gotha/russucc.htm

 

[Al_bina]

Even today we speak about the possibility of restoring on the Throne of Georgia Prince Davod of Bagration, one of Grand Duchess Leonida's close relatives.

If memory serves me right, neither Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna nor Grand Duke Georgii attended the wedding of Prince David and Princess Anna. It is a moot point whether the Georgian restoration ever takes place.

 

[branchg]

If memory serves me right, neither Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna nor Grand Duke Georgii attended the wedding of Prince David and Princess Anna. It is a moot point whether the Georgian restoration ever takes place.

That's correct. And Maria has been very careful in interviews with the Russian media not to disparage the Kremlin's actions in trying to destabilize Georgia or its duly-elected government. The last thing she wants is any attention to be drawn to the fact her mother was Georgian.

Russia is not exactly supportive of Georgia or its independence, especially under the reign of Putin.

 

[vorky]

Children born of a marriage between a person of the Imperial Family and a person not of corresponding dignity, that is not belonging to any royal or sovereign house, have no right of succession to the Throne.

source

It seems for me that Moukhransky´s were not sovereign house when GD Vladimir married. Can we say that Moukhransky´s were (are) royal house? Cory says that yes. If it is true, than condition of Pauline Law is fulfilled.

 

[Cory]

Grand Duchess Maria would not speak too much about Georgia because of the policy of Russia towards this country.

It is true there are different branches of the Royal House of Georgia and every of these reigned in a certain moment on a Principality or Kingdom in Georgia.

 

[Cory]

For those who want to understand better the Russian Succession:

RussianImperialSuccession

Russian monarchists' new Document:

http://en.legitimist.ru/news/2011/07/monarchical-alternative-for-russi.html

Possibilities of restoration:

http://en.legitimist.ru/news/2011/04/monarchy-in-russia-is-possible.html

 

[genegirl99]

Okay, pretend for a moment that restoration is possible. The average Russian goes to the voting booth and has three candidates for Tsar: Georgi of Russia, Rostislav Romanov, and Michael of Kent. And say Rostislav won the vote. What would happen? What would his role be? What new house rules could be come up with?

 

[Cory]

In the case of the restoration surely Grand Duchess Maria becomes Empress being recognized as Head of the imperial House by the Russian Orthodox Church and by the authorities.The succession is automatic and no popular vote can influence on that.
The problem is the majority of russians do not seem to be interested in this moment in a restoration.