Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants - Page 15

Varaz · #**281** 06-04-2010, 03:58 PM

Why then the so-called "Imperial house of Russia" does not recognises other representatives of a House of Romanovs? Do you know the truth ? because they are considered by supporters of Maria Vladimerovna as Morganatic heirs...

Benjamin · #**282** 06-04-2010, 04:20 PM

The Imperial Family of Russia now consists of Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and her son Grand Duke George Mikhailovich.

The reason that the other Romanovs do not belong to the IMPERIAL House is quite simple: the other Romanov descendants alive today descend from morganatic marriages that could not transmit dynastic rights or titles to those who are born from them.

Varaz · #**283** 06-05-2010, 04:50 AM

Dear Benjamin, if you have noticed I too have mentioned that Maria Vladimirovna is from the MORGANATIC marriage because Princes Bagration-Muhranski were always considered as one of high-nobiliary origins of Georgia. This offshoot could not be equal in relation to Romanovs Imperial Dynasty in any way. Princes Bagration-Muhranski as a high-nobiliary offshoot from royal Bagrations Dynasty in itself yet did not mean its special rights – otherwise, precisely same rights of equality should possess with Romanovs all numerous descendants of Princely families of Rurikovichs , many of which had even no princely title in the Russian empire and held rather modest position.

Benjamin · #**284** 06-05-2010, 04:45 PM

Dear Varaz,

Have you ever read or studied the Fundamental Laws that govern the members of the Imperial House of Russia?

Vasillisos Markos · #**285** 06-06-2010, 02:11 AM

I ran across this history of the Romanovs who escaped from Russia but I am perplexed after reading it. Can someone verify its accuracy and determine who is the head of the Romanovs today?

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/Imperial.../survivor.html

vsriCo · #**286** 06-06-2010, 02:30 AM

Quote:

I ran across this history of the Romanovs who escaped from Russia but I am perplexed after reading it. Can someone verify its accuracy and determine who is the head of the Romanovs today?

There's basically two schools of thought. The first is that all the Romanov's today are illegitimate according to the Fundamental Laws of the Russian Empire and that there is no true 'heir'. The second is that GD Maria's is the product of an equal marriage and therefore her and her son are the only legitimate Romanov dynasts.

Vasillisos Markos · #**287** 06-06-2010, 10:25 AM

vsriCo,

thank you for the reply but is it safe to assume that under the first school of thought, GD Maria is excluded? And under the second, assuming that there were no considerations given to morgantic unions, is there an heir with a better claim than Maria's claim to the throne?

Alison20 · #**288** 06-06-2010, 11:43 AM

I can understand that the Princes wish to maximise their claim to the (currently non-existant) throne of Russia.

However, I feel we should look to other Royal Houses, both ruling and exiled, and see how they have moved from rigid, old-fashioned dynastic rules (probably acceptable in the social climate of those days) to a freer definition in line with current thoughts. Rules have been specifically changed in Sweden and Norway. The House rules have been redefined for the Roumanian Royal Family. It seems to me that a marriage with a member of a noble Georgian family (related to the ruling line) should be taken as acceptable. Grand Duke Vladimir was Head of the Imperial House, and should have been able to adapt the House rules. Also since Russia has in the past had ruling Empresses, I can't see any objection to Grand Duchess Maria being considered barred because she is a woman.

It is also clear that none of the current Romanov Princes (who have never had the status of Grand Dukes) come from a 'pure' line. There are 'morganatic' or unequal marriages at every turn. If they can consider themselves acceptable in lineage, then there is no reason to call Grand Duchess Maria unacceptable.

Vasillisos Markos · #**289** 06-06-2010, 12:23 PM

Yes, but what about GD Maria's ancestors repudiating the Tsar when the revolution began? Doesn't that make them traitors to the throne and shouldn't they and their family line be barred from now asserting the claim to the throne?

kell · #**290** 06-06-2010, 02:22 PM

and hence the issue of the family being at each other about it and hence the problem with the yeltson era aptemts to restore the throne non of the romanovs are fitted with being proper legal claimaint under dysnatic law bareing the erie from people but each claim is on very touchy ground inculdeing maries

snowflower · #**291** 06-06-2010, 03:29 PM

Given than the ascession to the throne was semi salic aren't there any descandants of a female Romanovs who are offprings of equal marriages? there must be some I guess

Hereditary Thane · #**292** 06-06-2010, 06:01 PM

The so called Fundamental Laws of the Imperial Romanov House ceased to be legal in 90 years ago. Today the same rules are perpetuated as mere rules of association, like those of an amateur football club. Anyone who supports the archaic custom of unequal marriage is living in cloud cuckoo land. As with any association's constitution they can subscribe to rules that govern their activities, but only in a legal context. All the Romanovs should concentrate their minds and be less selfish. Most adults can gather and agree on fair rules, but not it seems the Romanovs. Are they worthy of a Russian restoration?

Sovereign_Of_Love · #**293** 06-06-2010, 07:41 PM

Seems not to be... I had been doing some reading and well.. it just won't happen, most aren't anywhere close to being the next 'ruler' and those who are will be discredited by the latter. Shame really, I'd like there to be another monarchy over Russia. Again won't happen, IMHO.

Vasillisos Markos · #**294** 06-06-2010, 08:22 PM

I doubt if the Romanovs, morganatic or not, will be restored to the throne of Russia, at least not in the near furture and probably never. Russians are enjoying, for good and bad, the fruits of their new democracy and those who are not enjoying it are longing for communist rule. A very small crowd may be agitating for the monarchy but again, I doubt it will happen. Too bad, it would be nice to see the pomp and circumstance again in Old Russia, now that the USSR is dead.

Kasumi · #**295** 06-06-2010, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vasillisos Markos

...A very small crowd may be agitating for the monarchy but again, I doubt it will happen...

The Prince Michael of Kent or Prince Harry of Wales have better chanses to become the Russian tzar then Georgiy Hohenzollern-Romanov because of his roots.
Article in Russian and one more
Russian monarchists are not united, most of them have low social profile to become an influental power in the society.
Meanwhile the Prince Michael of Kent speaks Russian perfectly.

vsriCo · #**296** 06-07-2010, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vasillisos markos

thank you for the reply but is it safe to assume that under the first school of thought, GD Maria is excluded? And under the second, assuming that there were no considerations given to morgantic unions, is there an heir with a better claim than Maria's claim to the throne?

GD Maria's grand father was third in line to the throne of Russia in 1917. After the death of Nicholas II, Alexei and Grand Duke Mikhail her grand father was the most senior Romanov.

Quote:

Yes, but what about GD Maria's ancestors repudiating the Tsar when the revolution began? Doesn't that make them traitors to the throne and shouldn't they and their family line be barred from now asserting the claim to the throne?

This is basically an emotional argument.. I don't see it having much relevance. Just look at the hundreds of years of Romanov rule, so many Tsar's were assassinated by their family and in other events the legitimate heir was denied the throne by other Romanov's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kasumi

The Prince Michael of Kent or Prince Harry of Wales have better chanses to become the Russian tzar then Georgiy Hohenzollern-Romanov because of his roots.
Article in Russian and one more
Russian monarchists are not united, most of them have low social profile to become an influental power in the society.
Meanwhile the Prince Michael of Kent speaks Russian perfectly.

What absolute Rubbish. "Because of his roots"? The House of Windsor is just as Germanic as the House of Romanov - regardless, the Russian people bear no ill will towards Germany. Historically, going back hundreds of years, relations between Russia and Britain have been terrible. Of all the current and former ruling houses of Europe, that of Britain is the least likely to be called upon in the event of a restoration of monarchy.

With respect to the Russian language, GD Maria's is fine. It is that slight accent similar to her mothers. But it's no different that of a Muscovite compared to someone in Vladivostok.

vsriCo · #**297** 07-31-2010, 03:29 AM

Bump. Russian's are the greatest admires of the British Monarchy:

Quote:

Russians are the greatest admirers of the British monarchy and Queen Elizabeth II in the world, the VisitBritain tourism organization has said.
VisitBritain has conducted a survey involving 25,000 people in 30 countries to reveal their attitude to the British Royal Family. The poll showed that 83 percent of those questioned in Russia would like to visit sites related to the Royal Family if they travel to Britain. Half of French would-be visitors, 57 percent of U.S. and 71 percent of Chinese potential tourists said they would like to visit such sites.
The Tower of London, the National Maritime Museum at Greenwich, the Victoria and Albert Museum, the St. Paul's Cathedral and Westminster Abbey are the most popular attractions in London, the poll indicated.
According to the survey, Britain's revenues from Russian tourists account for 500 million British pounds ($780 million) a year.
Russia had been a monarchy for centuries until the Bolsheviks seized power in 1917 and massacred Russia's last tsar, Nikolas II, his wife, their four daughters and son in July 1918.
According to a poll conduced by the Russia Public Opinion Research Center (VTsIOM) in 2006, 9 percent of Russians would like the monarchy to be restored in the country.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20100729/159988652.html

Cory · #**298** 07-31-2010, 05:04 AM

Why GD Maria and GD George still live abroad and not in Russia?

Vasillisos Markos · #**299** 07-31-2010, 10:58 AM

Perhaps because she prefers living elsewhere. Although Russia is no longer a communist country, it has plenty of problems, both societal and economical, and Maria may not feel as comfortable living in her ancestral land.

nascarlucy · #**300** 07-31-2010, 04:52 PM

You guys have lost me totally. I don't understand the rules of succession. Since there are so many many people involved, it gets very tangled.

GD Maria didn't grow up in Russia. Although it's no longer a communist country, the communist influence is still there and communism is anti-royal. If you have ever read Russian historians writing about the Czar during the time of communism, they are very hostile towards royalty. They (royalty) are basically blamed for every social ill or problem Russia has had in the last several hundred years.