Members of the Extended Romanov Family, past and present

[Russophile]

Did Nicholas name him Tsar (Michael) or did he just make him regent until Alexi would reign? Does anybody know for sure?

[JPhinala]

Yes. Nicholas origionally named Aleksi Tsar but then he was persuaded that it would be a death sentance for Aleksi so he named Michael Tsar. I believe the quote from the abdication decree reads "We abdicated for Ourselves and for Our Son Aleksi Nicholaievitch in favor of Our Brother Michael Aleksandrovitch."

[branchg]

The fount of honour rights of formerly reigning families have always passed in law and precedent, de-jure, to the Heads of the Royal Houses, including the right to interpret and modify any house laws.

The issue of the right of succession passing to a woman, rather than a man, is allowed under the Pauline Law. Given the morganatic status of the senior lines with current male candidates, the succession passed to Maria with the deaths of Prince Vassily and Grand Duke Vladimir. Upon her death, it passes to her son, George.

[JPhinala]

I firmly disagree with the right of the Head of Family of a deposed Monarchy to be the fount of honour. And it certainly has not "always passed in law in precedent." There are no laws about who has the right to confer titles in any deposed monarchy because there are no titles (except in Germany and France and those are not created but passed). No former Monarch should have or has the right to confer titles. Especially not if their goal in doing so is to litigitimize their own shakey claims. While the House of Savoy seems to think it can and Kyrill tried these titles are usually laughed at and ignored by serious historians and by most Monarchists. They are ocaisionally used out of politeness (for instance Monaco recognizes Ernst August Prinz von Hannover as HRH Prince Ernst August of Hanover.)

The argument that under Pauline Law Maria can succeed is a little more valid BUT there is still the question of what would be the best for Russia and a haughty woman who issues decrees and is the daughter of a huaghty man who issued titles with a, lets face it, fat son is not my idea of what would be best for Russia.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by JPhinala

...the daughter of a huaghty man who issued titles with a, lets face it, fat son is not my idea of what would be best for Russia.

"... fat son" - that's very 'weightist' (among other things), and certainly a novel reason to disqualify a person from dynastic succession.
Next thing we'll have prettiness tests to determine who's a dynast and who's not. No fatties and certainly no uglies. What else is on the list?

[JPhinala]

Let's face it, people do not want a monarch who is not a symbol of their power. Part of the Romanov image was tall, muscular men who could display the strength of Russia. I'm similar in size to George but I would not be a good restoration monarch. The way they look and the way they act makes up part of the image of the monarchy. I'm sorry if this seems offensive but it's realistic.

[Russophile]

I seem to remember Catherine I and her daughter Elizabeth as being over weight and not that skinny winny that Vanessa Redgrave portrayed. . . .

And what about the Hawaiian Monarchs? The Bigger the Better was their mantra! And they were all beautiful!

(BTW, I'm a size 6)

[COUNTESS]

Nicholas II was a mere 5'6" tall. Hardly Tsar material, if height was a criteria.

[JPhinala]

Yes. And Nicholas was considered a physically disapointing Tsar. Both to the family and to Russian Society. As for Cathrine and Elizabeth they were large in a time when being overweight was not so frowned upon. Now if you gain ten pounds and you're a celebrity it's a three week news story. I'm not saying that George should be excluded because of weight or height. I'm saying that on top of a shakey claim he does not symbolize what a Tsar should be either physically or (if he's anything like his mother, grandfather, great grandfather) mentally.

As for the Hawaiian comparison weight was viewed very differently in Hawaii than it is in Russia. Being overweight now is a symbol of the west and let's face it, Russians aren't going to bring back the Tsar so that they can be more western and less Russian. George and Maria aren't very Russian in apperance. Maria looks very Mediteranian.

I realize all of this sounds very petty but look at the rest of the forums on this site. Most of the focus on pictures and the apperance of Royals in the world. To quote Masha Lipman who is a Deputy Editor of a Moscow news magazine "If you're creating a myth, there should be something catchy about it and the fat boy isn't catchy." Harsh but realistic. Sorry if I've offended anyone here. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to make a point and that is that the Vladimirovichi are not necessarily the best claimants and that they certainly shouldn't be looked to constantly as the way to judge the family and shouldn't be listened to as if Maria is already Tsaritsa and George is Tsarevitch.

PS A little something I forgot on the topic of height. Grand Duke Nicholas "Nikolasha" was considered an ideal Romanov and many people who supported a restoration supported Nikolasha as the Restoration Tsar. He was tall and barrel chested with a large beard and a stern demeanor. HE was the picture of a Heroic Romanov and he was the kind of man that Russia would need to re-embrace the Romanovs. A man whose very pressence screamed "Russia!"

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by JPhinala

PS A little something I forgot on the topic of height. Grand Duke Nicholas "Nikolasha" was considered an ideal Romanov and many people who supported a restoration supported Nikolasha as the Restoration Tsar. He was tall and barrel chested with a large beard and a stern demeanor. HE was the picture of a Heroic Romanov and he was the kind of man that Russia would need to re-embrace the Romanovs. A man whose very pressence screamed "Russia!"

He was also quite adept as a leader in the Russian Armed forces, that is if he could get his cousins and siblings to stop all the graft from the supplies that were supposed to go to the fronts. . .
It was said that HM QEII bowed to his heir, Nicholas Romanov, when acknowledging the heir to the throne.

[JPhinala]

Originally Posted by Russophile

It was said that HM QEII bowed to his heir, Nicholas Romanov, when acknowledging the heir to the throne.

Where did you hear that? I would love to read about that. (If I had to choose a Romanov to be Tsar I would choose Nicholas as well but he has no sons. grrrr.)

[ortino]

Originally Posted by JPhinala

Where did you hear that? I would love to read about that. (If I had to choose a Romanov to be Tsar I would choose Nicholas as well but he has no sons. grrrr.)

In either "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter" or "The Lost Fortune Of The Tsars"-If I remember correctly-it was the latter

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Russophile

It was said that HM QEII bowed to his heir, Nicholas Romanov, when acknowledging the heir to the throne.

Umm... Possible of course, but it seems unlikely - and against all protocol - for any reigning Monarch to bow to a mere pretender, no matter what House the pretender represented.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by ortino

In either "The Romanovs: The Final Chapter"

Ortino is correct, I read it in Massies: The Romanovs' the Final Chapter. And I have heard from my friend Peter that Massie is very, very thorough with his work.

[Al_bina]

Originally Posted by JPhinala

I'm not saying that George should be excluded because of weight or height. I'm saying that on top of a shakey claim he does not symbolize what a Tsar should be either physically or (if he's anything like his mother, grandfather, great grandfather) mentally.

I realize all of this sounds very petty but look at the rest of the forums on this site. Most of the focus on pictures and the apperance of Royals in the world. To quote Masha Lipman who is a Deputy Editor of a Moscow news magazine "If you're creating a myth, there should be something catchy about it and the fat boy isn't catchy." Harsh but realistic. Sorry if I've offended anyone here. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to make a point and that is that the Vladimirovichi are not necessarily the best claimants and that they certainly shouldn't be looked to constantly as the way to judge the family and shouldn't be listened to as if Maria is already Tsaritsa and George is Tsarevitch.

PS Grand Duke Nicholas "Nikolasha" was considered an ideal Romanov and many people who supported a restoration supported Nikolasha as the Restoration Tsar. He was tall and barrel chested with a large beard and a stern demeanor. HE was the picture of a Heroic Romanov and he was the kind of man that Russia would need to re-embrace the Romanovs. A man whose very pressence screamed "Russia!"

Although candid in a cruel way, Miss Lipman's opinion may be regarded as correct. Grand Duke Georgy conveys an image of the mother’s boy to me. He tends to lack an aura of greatness and grandeur, which (1)was/is an essential image part of the Russian Imperial family and (2) which would largely contribute to his acceptance as a Tsar by Russians.

[Russophile]

I would suggest a stint in the Armed Forces. Would do a "mama's boy" a world of good!

[Al_bina]

I feel certain that the Mother will brush such unthinkable suggestions away.

[Russophile]

Pity. My one boy is in and coming your way soon, and the other goes in in June. My eldest has changed so much for the better! Very respectable young man that I'm very proud of!

[JPhinala]

While I agree that being in the Army builds lots of moral character and was a crucial part of the Romanov image (I once heard the army refered to as the "Playground of the Romanovs") there are two big reasons that George should NOT and will not be in the Army. One, he would not be in the Russian Army which would potentially hurt his already shakey image as "Russian." Two, should he be injured and die, Maria is not in a position to have more children with her husband (being divorced).

[JPhinala]

So, what do we know about Nikolai and Rostislav Romanov? The only time I've ever seen them was in pictures from HIM the Dowager Empress Marie Feodorovna's reburial service and the unveiling of a statue to commemorate the occaision. Does anyone know anything about them?

I suppose I should have been more clear. I mean Nikolai Rostislavich and Rostislav Rostislavich.