Marie Pavlovna "The Elder" (Grand Duchess Vladimir) (1854-1920)

[EmpressRouge]

Originally Posted by CarolinaLandgrave

Who was she previously engaged too??? I always read that Alexander II was very anxious to get GD Vlad married and settled... seems he was a character as well!

Not sure who it was, but that's what Wikipedia says and no one has corrected it or have I heard the fact dispelled.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by CarolinaLandgrave

Who was she previously engaged too??? I always read that Alexander II was very anxious to get GD Vlad married and settled... seems he was a character as well!

I checked Wiki, but it didn't say who it was. Darn it! Inquirig minds wanna know!!

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Now I am intrigued!!!

[maria-olivia]

Was Grand Duchess MP the elder happy with her only daughter Helena 's wedding with a greek minor Prince ?

[snowflower]

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

I've always read that it was Ella (and Wilhelm for dynastic reasons wanted a German relative on the Russian throne) who convinced Alix to convert, being her sister and having gone through the exact same thing (only Ella was not required to convert and only did so after the marriage).

I don't know if Marie tried to convine Alix to convert but she did support greatly the match between Alix and Nicky, for various reasons . She hoped that she would be able to influence Alix if she supported her and guided her and, if there was a wedding, she would also manage to make her nephew very very happy and her sister in law very very miserable with one single blow . But of course her plans didn't work out the way she hoped because, although Alix did marry Nicholas, she was never very fond of Marie and she was very negative ( to the point of rudeness) whenever Marie tried to offer her some " usefull advice".

Here is is a remarkable incident that occured once when Marie Pavlova was vacationing alone in Livadia (From " At the Court of the last Tsar" ):


"Next day we visited the hospitals at Yalta and within the precincts of Livadia, a domain which the Tsar had presented to his wife; then we went on to Gourzouf, a spot visited by all who came to the Crimea.
As we got into the cars the Grand Duchess, to my astonishment, asked her maid of honour, Mlle Oliv, to go in the second car, and made a sign to me to sit by her side, a thing quite against the rules of Court etiquette.
We had scarcely passed through the gates of Livadia when she took a telegram out of her bag and passed it to me with a hand that trembled. The telegram was in English:

'Am astonished that you should be at Livadia without having asked the lady of the house. As for my hospitals, I know that they are in good order. Alexandra.'

'What impertinence!' she said to me, flushed with anger. 'Anyhow, here is the answer I am sending.'
I read an endless message. Heavens! there was no mincing of words in it.
'I hope your Highness has not yet sent off this telegram?
'No,' she answered, 'I wanted to see what you think.'
We discussed the draft, word by word, throughout the journey. I heaved a great sigh of relief when at last the Grand Duchess said to me: 'You are right -I will leave it unanswered. It would be beneath my dignity, at my age, to take any notice of a piece of tactlessness on the part of a woman, and a princess at that, who had to come to me to learn how to behave in society-' And so on, until the moment of our arrival at Gourzouf."

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by CarolinaLandgrave

Now I am intrigued!!!

Sorry CL! More bad news: Russo has "A Fatal Passion" about Ducky by Michael John Sullivan and a cursory look in there on Miechen's personality does not mention the aforesaid suitor. But! Don't give up!! We shall be VICTORIOUS!! HA HA!

[CarolinaLandgrave]

You are gem, Russo! Surely someone had to write it down somewhere!
Thanks for checking

[EmpressRouge]

So I got my hands on a copy of Greg King's The Court of the Last Tsar, and it confirms, like King, Kaiser, Tsar, that Miechen "conspired" with Alix's siblings Ernie and Ella, and Kaiser Wilhelm to help Nicky's cause to win Alix's hand. Nothing in the book about Miechen having a previous fiance, but Alexander II arranged the marriage in an attempt to curb Vladimir's debauchery and wild habits. Miechen was a shy, unsophisticated young woman (much like Alix) before she married but transformed herself upon coming to St. Petersburg. Vladimir, ambitious as his wife, hated that he could not be Tsar because of birth order, and saw himself much more sophisticated and qualified to be Tsar than the boorish Alexander III. After the horrific train accident involving Alexander III's family in 1888, the Vladimirs were disappointed that the entire family was alive and they would not have another chance to gain the throne for themselves. Vladimir's waywardness did not curb after his marriage, and there was a drunken brawl at a French restaurant where the prefect of the St. Petersburg police had to be called and "on learning of the incident, Alexander III ordered the Vladimirs into a six-month French exile."

Originally Posted by snowflower

I don't know if Marie tried to convine Alix to convert but she did support greatly the match between Alix and Nicky, for various reasons . She hoped that she would be able to influence Alix if she supported her and guided her and, if there was a wedding, she would also manage to make her nephew very very happy and her sister in law very very miserable with one single blow . But of course her plans didn't work out the way she hoped because, although Alix did marry Nicholas, she was never very fond of Marie and she was very negative ( to the point of rudeness) whenever Marie tried to offer her some " usefull advice".

Alexander III and Minnie disapproved of the Vladimirs' hedonistic ways, but Minnie also did not like Miechen as part of the former's hatred of all things German. Like Snowflower said, pro-German Miechen saw Alix as her pawn to cut down Minnie's position. However, Alix did not blossom like she did and "took offense" when her guidance failed. Miechen never criticized Minnie in public because the dowger Empress was too popular, so all of her insults were directed at Alix. It didn't help matters when Nicky banned and stripped Miechen's son Cyril of his title, income and privileges, when Cyril married Ducky without permission. The Vladimirs blamed Nicky's extreme actions on Alix trying to get revenge on her ex-sister-in-law.

[Russophile]

So you enjoyed the book? If so, I'll tell Greg. I haven't read that one yet.

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

After the horrific train accident involving Alexander III's family in 1888, the Vladimirs were disappointed that the entire family was alive and they would not have another chance to gain the throne for themselves. Vladimir's waywardness did not curb after his marriage, and there a drunken brawl at a French restaurant where the prefect of the St. Petersburg police had to be called and "on learning of the incident, Alexander III ordered the Vladimirs into a six-month French exile."

It was said the Michen, after the accident, was hear to say "We shall never have such a chance again..." referring to the almost-death of Alexander III and his family.

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Originally Posted by Russophile

So you enjoyed the book? If so, I'll tell Greg. I haven't read that one yet.

I very much enjoyed this book, Russo - you really need to add it t you collection.
Full of great info on so much of Imperial Russia in the last days

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by CarolinaLandgrave

Who was she previously engaged too??? I always read that Alexander II was very anxious to get GD Vlad married and settled... seems he was a character as well!

To prince Günther Victor of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen (the future Fürst of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen). He was the brother of Miechen's stephmother, Grand Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin.

[CarolinaLandgrave]

Originally Posted by Marengo

To prince Günther Victor of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen (the future Fürst of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen). He was the brother of Miechen's stephmother, Grand Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin.

Thank you for finding that for us, Marengo. Where ever did you dig that up?

[Marengo]

I still remembered reading it somewhere & it stayed in my head. I believe from a book in German that I have about German princesses at the Russian court. I don't have it here though. Or maybe from Romanov Autumn.

[snowflower]

Originally Posted by Marengo

To prince Günther Victor of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen (the future Fürst of Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen). He was the brother of Miechen's stephmother, Grand Duchess Marie of Mecklenburg-Schwerin.

Wow Marengo,bravo for finding it out! I am still extremely astonished that she actually broke up her engagement . but Marie had an appetite for advantageous marriage - I admire her nerve ofr actually proposing to Nicholas and Alexandra a marriage between one of her sons ( Boris I think) and Olga!

[Grace Angel]

Yes, it was Boris and Olga.. that potential match was none too popular with Alexandra though, for obvius reasons. I've always been surprised that Marie P didn't put more pressure on her younger sons to marry suitably and continue the dynasty, rather than being playboys, basically.. or maybe she did and they didn't heed it,I can't remember.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Grace Angel

Yes, it was Boris and Olga.. that potential match was none too popular with Alexandra though, for obvius reasons. I've always been surprised that Marie P didn't put more pressure on her younger sons to marry suitably and continue the dynasty, rather than being playboys, basically.. or maybe she did and they didn't heed it,I can't remember.

Well gee, when the court seemed to know Missy's daughter Mignon was Boris' and not Ferdinands. . . .I don't blame Alix.
Perhaps Meichen thought there was more time for her brood to settle down? Surely she never thought that the Bolshies would have wiped out her entire world. Nobody could have.

[pamela18335]

Miechen couldn't have been too happy with the spouses of any of her brood, with the possible exception of Victoria Melita (Ducky). After all, her other boys married their mistresses, Andrei to Mathilde Kschessinskaya, the paternity of whose son was never truly established. Elena went to a minor Greek prince. Must have been galling to a woman who coveted the Russian throne for her son, Kyrill, and possibly connived in a plot to overthrow Nicholas in favor of Kyrill just before or in the early days of the war.

Emphatically NOT one of my favorite Romanovs :P

[Vecchiolarry]

Hi,

Well, she is one of my favourites if only in the fact that she wasn't dull...
We might not like her much, but she is fascinating - all her conniving and manipulations came to naught, but she kept on hoping for her & their future(s)...
A fascinating fact:
She was the last Romanov to leave Russia and the first to die in exile...

She was known as 'the grandest of the Grand Duchesses', a well deserved appallation.

Others who were grand, but not as famous:
Aunt Sanny (GD Alexandra Iosephovna)
Aunt Stassie (GD Anastasia Michaelovna [Mecklenburg])
Marie Coburg (GD Maria Alexandrovna)


Larry

[Russophile]

I certainly would have loved to have seen her, however. My but she would have put the GRAND in Grand Duchess!

Pamela, do you think that Andrei felt he "had" to marry Mathilda when they were in exile. In her book, Dancing in St. Petersburg, she makes no mention of being passed between the Grand Dukes (Of course, some things are better left unsaid) however, given the fact that she was the sole breadwinner in Paris en exile and their circumstances had drastically changed, do you think she might have put an ultimatum on Andrei?

I had read in the Ducky book that actually the family was rather pleased with Elena's choice: It had gone better than they expected given the temperment of that Grand Duchess.