Languages spoken by Nicholas, Alexandra and Family

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Well, it depends. There is a difference. But, many people can say that in court there are German schoolbooks but, without the exact German court papers or photos that claim can not be proven true. That is nothing more than speculation.

So, German court records are now nothing more than speculation. What next?

Now, I know Gibbes didn't say the girls knew German.

Well, then you better read his testimony, reproduced in "The last Days of the Romanovs."

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Gilliard himself, said that the girls and Alix never uttered a word in German. You can say you studied German, but that doesn't really mean you speak it fluently. That's the same thing with OTMA, they spoke to Russian to their father and Alexei. English to their mother. French to their tutor Gilliard. Why do you ignore our evidence? We are in circles again! Only Tatiana and Olga has lessons in German at Yakateringburg but they had very little knowledge of German. German was a very difficult langauge for them, they didn't use.

I don't think ANYBODY has stated that the girls spoke it fluently.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

How many years have you known German?

I started German lessons at 14 for 4 years. I am now 60. You do the math.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

I started German lessons at 14 for 4 years. I am now 60. You do the math.

That means you known German for 46 years!

I don't think ANYBODY has stated that the girls spoke it fluently.

ChatNoir, you said that there was there was "German schoolbooks" that OTMA owned. It does seem like you're trying to prove that the girls knew German. Now, you're saying the girls didn't know German. It just doesn't make sense to say they wrote in German well, without knowing the language. You cans ay you took German, but that doesn't mean you know it very well.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

I don't think ANYBODY has stated that the girls spoke it fluently.

When you mentioned these so called "German schoolbooks". You were trying to "prove" that OTMA wrote and spoke in German. Other AA supporters were trying to prove that OTMA knew German but, failed to do so.Why would you mention anything about the German schoolbooks, if you weren't trying to prove that the girls spoke German fluently?

[Anna was Franziska]

Chat this is ridiculous! We give you loads of quotes saying either that they never knew, or used German or that they had some lessons but never learned it, and all you can do is grab onto that one line of Gibbes where he said they spoke English and French well and German badly. Get a clue, that's the same as saying they didn't know it, couldn't speak it, were bad at it. Do you really think they sat around talking to each other in 'bad' German? Get real! What he was saying is that they were poor students of it, they hadn't learned it. Add this to all the other quotes, and it's ovewhelmingly obvious that the girls did not use or speak German. (just because AA did you have to hold onto this but really it's getting old. If you really want to discuss languages why not bring up something else, such as Nicholas and Danish? Because AA is all you care about and you know it.

Again: Colonel Kobyliski, who was in charge of the family from their imprisonment at Tsarskoe Selo to their entire time at Tobolsk said he never heard a German word. Gilliard said they never spoke German, except when forced to at a reception (and remember children under 16 did not go to these types of events, ruling out AN) Anna Vyrubova said the children were not interested in other languages, and that they learned French and read it well but were never fluent. She said "Trina" was 'supposed' to have taught them German but had no success. Anna V. also tells us that N and A spoke English almost exclusively, and as we know Alix spoke English with the girls,English or French with Alexei, English and French to her friends. This is backed up by Sophie B. and Lili Dehn and others. Sophie said the older girls had a 'smattering' of German but the younger girls and Alexei none at all. Olga A. tells us 'German was never used it the family' and this is why she was shocked that AA, when she was supposed to be AN, spoke only German, because the real AN would not have used German to her Russian speaking aunt! Nicholas spoke Russian with the children and the children spoke Russian with each other. They were serious students of French due to their live in tutor Gilliard, and French was the language of the court. So please tell me when they allegedly spoke all this German? It never happened. (there are quotes from books by me or Anastasia Evidence in previous pages of this thread to back up every one of these quotes, go back and look before you accuse me of not having sources!)

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Chat this is ridiculous!

Of course it is ridiculous. The girls obviously had German lessons, but did not do too well at speaking it.

We give you loads of quotes saying either that they never knew, or used German or that they had some lessons but never learned it, and all you can do is grab onto that one line of Gibbes where he said they spoke English and French well and German badly.

So in other words: Your quotes are valid, mine are not.

Get a clue, that's the same as saying they didn't know it, couldn't speak it, were bad at it.

As Gibbes was saying: They spoke it badly.

Do you really think they sat around talking to each other in 'bad' German? Get real! What he was saying is that they were poor students of it, they hadn't learned it. Add this to all the other quotes, and it's ovewhelmingly obvious that the girls did not use or speak German. (just because AA did you have to hold onto this but really it's getting old. If you really want to discuss languages why not bring up something else, such as Nicholas and Danish? Because AA is all you care about and you know it.

It seems to me that you are the one who cares about AA.

Again: Colonel Kobyliski, who was in charge of the family from their imprisonment at Tsarskoe Selo to their entire time at Tobolsk said he never heard a German word. Gilliard said they never spoke German, except when forced to at a reception (and remember children under 16 did not go to these types of events, ruling out AN)

And if you read your Kobylinski, you will also see that he describes Olga as "speaking German poorly."

Anna Vyrubova said the children were not interested in other languages, and that they learned French and read it well but were never fluent. She said "Trina" was 'supposed' to have taught them German but had no success. Anna V. also tells us that N and A spoke English almost exclusively, and as we know Alix spoke English with the girls,English or French with Alexei, English and French to her friends. Nicholas spoke Russian with the children and the children spoke Russian with each other. They were serious students of French due to their live in tutor Gilliard, and French was the language of the court. So please tell me when they allegedly spoke all this German? It never happened.

I have NEVER said that they spoke German in daily conversations, just that they studied it AND SPOKE IT BADLY. Personally, I speak it well, but I do not use it for my daily conversations.

[ChatNoir]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

When you mentioned these so called "German schoolbooks". You were trying to "prove" that OTMA wrote and spoke in German. Other AA supporters were trying to prove that OTMA knew German but, failed to do so.Why would you mention anything about the German schoolbooks, if you weren't trying to prove that the girls spoke German fluently?

I have never tried to prove that the girls spoke German fluently, only that they took German lessons and to some degree knew the language. Why is this so scary to you?

[Kalafrana]

For the record, I am not and have never been a supporter of Anna Anderson. I decided a long time ago that she was bogus and for a number of reasons, not least that her English (in an interview shown on a documentary narrated by Prince Michael of Kent from around 1990) was very broken and heavily accented. Given that the Grand Duchesses spoke English with their mother I would have expected their English to be pretty fluent (possibly with some degree of foreign accent - I have seen a newsreel interview of the Kaiser speaking English in the 1930s, with something of a German accent and an inability to manage the English 'th' sound).

From the evidence which has been argued over exhaustively it seems as though both parents spoke German ('spoke' in the ordinary sense of knowing it and being able to read and write as well as speak the language). The Grand Duchesses had German lessons but never spoke the language very well. The Tsarevich, for some reason, did not have German lessons. None of this is incompatible with the evidence that German was never used in the family circle.

I learned German at school for two years and passed an O level in it over thirty years ago. I can speak, read and write very basic German, but I would be the first to admit that I speak it badly. Speaking a language 'badly' is not the same as not speaking, reading or understanding it at all.

[Michael HR]

Sorry folks but I do not understand what difference it makes either way with regard to German. Even if they did it would have been at school room level as suggested by the school books and the language would not be in common usage in the household or court. Russian, French and English seem to have been the main languages in usage. Why the great debate over German and does it really matter?

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

Of course it is ridiculous. The girls obviously had German lessons, but did not do too well at speaking it.

Exactly. It is ridiculous. The two elder girls Olga and Tatiana had small German lessons, not anything as big as their Russian or English lessons. The girl's German wasn't fluent enough to speak or know. I can say I studied German before, and barely speak it. They haven't studied it long enough to know. This discussion needs to be ended. All we are doing is arguing back in circles posting the same information over, and over again. This is not funny. It's rather sad.

So in other words: Your quotes are valid, mine are not.

ChatNoir, we are posting our information based on facts, NOT hearsay. At least we have evidence to back up our posts.

Sorry folks but I do not understand what difference it makes either way with regard to German. Even if they did it would have been at school room level as suggested by the school books and the language would not be in common usage in the household or court. Russian, French and English seem to have been the main languages in usage. Why the great debate over German and does it really matter?

The fact that Gibbes, Gilliard, Olga Alexandrovna, and Countess Sophie Buxhoeveden said the girls did not speak and use German. It does make a difference because ignoring and denying the accounts of those who known the Imperial family. Saying they spoke German, without evidence wouldn't be correct.

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska
Do you really think they sat around talking to each other in 'bad' German? Get real!

I hope not, because that wouldn't make any sense at all. The girl's speaking bad German to each other. They wouldn't do that because why speak and talk in a language you barely know. That wouldn't be true.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir
As Gibbes was saying: They spoke it badly.

That's what I said, and you said Gibbes said the girls spoke German.

It seems to me that you are the one who cares about AA.

If your not so concern about Anna Anderson, then why do you continue to insist that there are German schoolbook's the girls had? You're trying to say the girls had German schoolbook's so you can say there's a possiblity that AA was Anastasia. AA knew German, and you want to make the girls seem like they knew German, by mentioned these so called "German schoolbook's".

And if you read your Kobylinski, you will also see that he describes Olga as "speaking German poorly."

It is true, that Olga did speak German poorly. Sophie Buxhoeveden mentioned that a couple of times that Olga and Tatiana barely knew any German. They had minor lessons during Yakateringburg. This is the same thing as people others saying that they studied German, and they still don't know how to speak and read the language well.

I have NEVER said that they spoke German in daily conversations, just that they studied it AND SPOKE IT BADLY. Personally, I speak it well, but I do not use it for my daily conversations.

The girls didn't study frequently well enough to know German.
If you're saying they knew very little German, why do you keep on trying to covince everyone they had German schoolbooks? If they barely knew German, then they didn't write well in the language either.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Originally Posted by ChatNoir

I have never tried to prove that the girls spoke German fluently, only that they took German lessons and to some degree knew the language. Why is this so scary to you?

Why did you say the girls had "german schoolbook's" then?
Your posts makes it seem like you want to try to prove that OTMA knew German. This arguement is very old and it has been proven so many times.

Originally Posted by Kalafrana

From the evidence which has been argued over exhaustively it seems as though both parents spoke German ('spoke' in the ordinary sense of knowing it and being able to read and write as well as speak the language). The Grand Duchesses had German lessons but never spoke the language very well. The Tsarevich, for some reason, did not have German lessons. None of this is incompatible with the evidence that German was never used in the family circle.

Only Olga and Tatiana had minor German lessons. Maria and Anastasia never had German lessons. Therefore, they never knew the language at all. The fact that Gilliard said he never heard any of the Imperial family utter a word in German is enough evidence to prove the family had no use for the language. Gilliard, Gibbes, Olga Alexandrovna, and Sophie Buxhoevenden, stated that the girls did not use German.

The people who claim to hear Alix speak in German were the people who didn't know any English, only Russian that's why they accused her of speaking German to her daughters during WWI.

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska
The pro-German tendencies of the Empress were mentioned after our reverse at Brest, when the Emperor assumed command. Everyone was suspicious of her, and, when she spoke English at the hospitals to her daughters and her ladies-in-waiting, the soldiers declared she was speaking German, and this report once started was magnified exceedingly.

[Kalafrana]

'The imperial family's German relatives spoke English fluently, that's why it was not necessary for the Imperial family to know German.[/quote]'

This is like saying that nobody in Britain or the US needs to learn foreign languages because 'everybody' nowadays speaks English. Nicholas and Alexandra's children lived isolated lives but the German speakers they would come into contact with would not necessarily only be relations. I have already mentioned that quite a high proportion of the nobility of the Baltic provinces were German speaking, and not all of them spoke Russian. For example, Felix Yussupov mentions in 'Lost Splendour' his meeting with Count Alexander Benckendorff, the last imperial ambassador in London, and his astonishment that Benckendorff 'hardly knew a word of Russian' (first page of Ch.15 in the online edition). Benckendorff's English was certainly fluent - I have seen a letter of his to George V's private secretary in English in the Royal Archives at Windsor - and he presumably spoke French as well. But if someone's first language is German it is only polite to speak German with them, and that would be reason enough for the Romanov children to learn German.

I have read a fair number of books which suggest that German was very much a normal part of a decent upper class education in Russia. The girls of the Smolny Institute were expected to speak French and German on alternate days; Tchaikovsky, educated at the Imperial School of Jurisprudence, corresponded with Madame von Meck in German, and so on.

During the First World War, and in the 1920s and 1930s when Anna Anderson's 'career' was at its height, there were very good reasons for those loyal to the family and their memory to play down their knowledge of German. That, to me, explains the inconsistencies.

As to 'German schoolbooks', surely this phrase means nothing more than textbooks and exercise books.

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

Why did you say the girls had "german schoolbook's" then?
Your posts makes it seem like you want to try to prove that OTMA knew German. This arguement is very old and it has been proven so many times.


Only Olga and Tatiana had minor German lessons. Maria and Anastasia never had German lessons. Therefore, they never knew the language at all. The fact that Gilliard said he never heard any of the Imperial family utter a word in German is enough evidence to prove the family had no use for the language. Gilliard, Gibbes, Olga Alexandrovna, and Sophie Buxhoevenden, stated that the girls did not use German.

The people who claim to hear Alix speak in German were the people who didn't know any English, only Russian that's why they accused her of speaking German to her daughters during WWI.

Let me see if I have all of this right.

AWF claims Maria and Anastasia never had German lessons BUT there is proof that Anastasia had lessons because during AA's trial GD Anastasia's German lesson books were presented to the German court. It was proposed that they try to gain fingerprints from the books but this was finally set aside because in those days the lifting of fingerprints would have meant the book or books would have been destroyed. So, I don't understand why AWF denies these facts. As far as I'm concern, just because the facts were discovered for the AA trial doesn't mean these facts should be avoided, ignored or be found as useless information.

AWF admits that Olga and Tatiana did have German lessons.

To what degree each read or spoke German by July of 1918 is unknown by those who were not present.

According to Chat: >>And as Gibbes said: They spoke good English and French, but bad German<<

According to AWF: Colonel Kobyliski, who was in charge of the family from their imprisonment at Tsarskoe Selo to their entire time at Tobolsk said he never heard a German word.

But Chat tells us: >>And if you read your Kobylinski, you will also see that he describes Olga as "speaking German poorly."<<

AWF continued: >>Gilliard said they never spoke German, except when forced to at a reception<< and AWF followed with her assumption of: >> (and remember children under 16 did not go to these types of events, ruling out AN)<<

We, also, know that the Royal Family was warned while in the Ipatiev House that they were not to speak Germany, only Russian.

AWF's, again, assumes: >>The people who claim to hear Alix speak in German were the people who didn't know any English, only Russian that's why they accused her of speaking German to her daughters during WWI.<<

AWF has made this broad statement without knowing that some of the guards knew German. In fact, it was probably one of them who wrote on the wall the slightly changed verse of Heinrich Heine's, which not only provides us a verses in German but the way the verse was changed provides us with the knowledge the person was an educated man who knew proper German.

I, also, wonder what the Russians thought when they saw Alexandra's part of the good luck symbol, which was commonly used at that time by Germans before the Nazi party gave the age old symbol it's own bloody twist.

After reading all of these posts, it appears that the four grand duchesses knew some German. And, I believe that is all Chat is posting.

My posts provide information that both Alexandra and Nicholas II knew proper German and spoke it when it was necessary, especially in court funtions outside of Russia.

Seems simple enough to me.

AGRBear

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by Kalafrana

But if someone's first language is German it is only polite to speak German with them, and that would be reason enough for the Romanov children to learn German.

Actually this was not the way it was at all. Most business was conducted in French, this was the reason to have a court language, so it could be the 'universal' one everyone knew and used for important matters regardless of their own native tongue or preferences. Felix Y. also said in Lost Splendor that he and his brother disapproved of Russians speaking other languges to each other, and that when a Russian person spoke to them in French, they'd answer in Russian.

ANYONE can use a greeting in a foreign language, whether or not they know it. For years, my mother, after having lived in Germany while my father was stationed there and having a German maid, used to, as a novelty, for many years answer the phone "Guten Tag". My father often used 'mushi mushi' from the Japanese, and my husband "hola!" from Spanish. This certainly does not indicate knowledge of the language.

I have read a fair number of books which suggest that German was very much a normal part of a decent upper class education in Russia.

Of course it was, but this doesn't mean the girls learned it well or knew it.

During the First World War, and in the 1920s and 1930s when Anna Anderson's 'career' was at its height, there were very good reasons for those loyal to the family and their memory to play down their knowledge of German. That, to me, explains the inconsistencies.

See, THIS is what some of us think Chat is doing here, 'up-playing' any alleged knowledge of it to justify AA's choice of German to speak when the real Anastasia would have known the other three much better. Also consider that most, if not all, of the books written by former proteges' of the family stating their lack of German were written before AA's claim came into prominence in 1925 (Gilliard's 1921, Lili D. 1922, Anna V. 1923, "Last Days of the Romanovs" 1920.) so they did not set out to 'sabotage' AA's claim before they'd even heard of it. Even if they had heard of AA, I don't believe there was any conspiracy to pepper their books against her by saying AN didn't know German.

It's also very natural that Olga A., upon visiting a woman claiming to be her niece, would be shocked she only spoke and understood German, when she knew personally that Anastasia would have used Russian, English or French, which she knew much better, and would never use Gerrman, and sit and whisper 'is that the aunt' in German to the nurses while refusing to speak Russian to,if she had been AN, a fellow Russian speaker.

In looking through Gilliard's book recently, I discovered something I had not known before- that he was brought in first to be a teacher to the children of the Duke of Leuchtenberg, who later became an AA supporter, though his son Dmitri denied AAA as an imposter, using the lack of Russian, English and French and the overuse of German as a main reason.

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

... [ in part]...
See, THIS is what some of us think Chat is doing here, 'up-playing' any alleged knowledge of it to justify AA's choice of German to speak....
.....

But this thread is not about AA it's about the languages spoken by Nicholas, Alexandra, the four grand duchesses and Alexis. So, I see no reason to give your opinion as to why Chat, me or anyone else gives evidence about what these seven people spoke. I believe there are threads about AA and what languages she knew or didn't know. Meanwhile, I think everyone is realizing that the Royal Family members knew some German during their life time.

AGRBear:

[tian]

Here are two examples of Tatiana's German knowledge.

Tatiana's letter to Gretchen von Fabrice in German. (Alix an Gretchen, p. 183)


Tatiana's German grammar book from 1907. (Na Detskoi Polovine, p. 84)

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

Let me see if I have all of this right.

AWF claims Maria and Anastasia never had German lessons BUT there is proof that Anastasia had lessons because during AA's trial GD Anastasia's German lesson books were presented to the German court. It was proposed that they try to gain fingerprints from the books but this was finally set aside because in those days the lifting of fingerprints would have meant the book or books would have been destroyed. So, I don't understand why AWF denies these facts. As far as I'm concern, just because the facts were discovered for the AA trial doesn't mean these facts should be avoided, ignored or be found as useless information.

No, there is NOT proof of Anastasia having German lessons. Why are you bringing AA up again?That's the only reason why you mentioned the German lessons. Something is not right to start claiming that the girls did speak German all because of AA. I read the book "The Life and Tragedy of Alexandra Feodorovna" and it states that Maria, Anastasia and Alexei had NO knowledge of German. They did NOT study German.You continue to ignore the fact that Gilliard, Gibbes, Olga Alexandrovna, and Sophie Buxhoevenden, stated that the girls did not use German. I'm NOT AWF. I'm AE. I already gave you facts, I got information from Lili Dehn, Olga Alexandrovna, Sophie and Gilliard.

But this thread is not about AA it's about the languages spoken by Nicholas, Alexandra, the four grand duchesses and Alexis. So, I see no reason to give your opinion as to why Chat, me or anyone else gives evidence about what these seven people spoke. I believe there are threads about AA and what languages she knew or didn't know. Meanwhile, I think everyone is realizing that the Royal Family members knew some German during their life time.

AGRBear:

Bear, you are trying to start up the discussion of AA. You mention her in your posts. But, YOU did start to mention AA when you were talking about those "German schoolbooks". Gilliard said he NEVER heard any of the imperial family utter a word in German.

AWF's, again, assumes: >>The people who claim to hear Alix speak in German were the people who didn't know any English, only Russian that's why they accused her of speaking German to her daughters during WWI.<<

It's true and Lili Dehn said that in her book. You can't call her a liar, because you don't know Alix, Bear you haven't met her or spoke to the woman. Lili Dehn, she spoke to Alix, knew her very well. She's a lady in waiting of Alix.

[ChatNoir]

From Peter Kurth:

....the Tsar's daughter, although she couldn't spell, was impeccably neat: there was not a mark out of place in her lessons. Still, the workbooks served a valuable and long-overdue purpose, demolishing in one blow the contention of the opposition that the Grand Duchess (Anastasia), as a child had not known German. Here, in black and white, were the lessons to prove that the Grand Duchess had studied German "in a serious manner", that her German lessons, in fact, bore fewer errors than her Russian lessons did.