Identification of the remains found in 2007: Alexei and Marie (Coble, 2009)

[plkbvt]

Originally Posted by Ex-Princess Lisa

Why are you so sure there is not closer family alive today.
The debate is a long way from closed.

Just put yourself in the position of any close family members that are alive today, I'm thinking maybe grandsons and granddaughters, how do you think they feel about the bones?

From my experience with them, they're just as bewildered as the rest of us! pk

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

Have you had any experience with them?

[crm2317]

Were there ever any pictures from the burial of the family when the bones were discovered? Was there even a funeral?

[Russophile]

See here:
Czar's burial marked by church politics.(remains of Nicholas

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by crm2317

Were there ever any pictures from the burial of the family when the bones were discovered? Was there even a funeral?

An interesting point, the Russian Orthodox Church has never acknowledged the remains belong to the Imperial Family.

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by lexi4

An interesting point, the Russian Orthodox Church has never acknowledged the remains belong to the Imperial Family.

Really? That's interesting, I never knew the Russian Orthodox Church doesn't acknowledge the remains belonf the the Imperial Family.
Could you give a source or link to an article?

[crm2317]

Wow thats quite surprising to me. Even though the DNA samples taken presented matches it is not accepted as the Imperial Family.
I find it quite fascinating actually

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Really? That's interesting, I never knew the Russian Orthodox Church doesn't acknowledge the remains belonf the the Imperial Family.
Could you give a source or link to an article?

This article http://antipas.org/protected_files/n...etermined.html is rather old, but it does explain why the ROC didn't aknowledge the remains as those of the Imperial Family. Another good source on this is the book Fate of the Romanovs by Greg King and Penny Wilson. To this day the church has refused to acknowledge those remains as belonging to the Romanovs. I'll try to gather up some more information for you if you are interested.
Lexi

[Avalon]

Originally Posted by lexi4

This article Burial of Romanov Remains Determined is rather old, but it does explain why the ROC didn't aknowledge the remains as those of the Imperial Family. Another good source on this is the book Fate of the Romanovs by Greg King and Penny Wilson. To this day the church has refused to acknowledge those remains as belonging to the Romanovs. I'll try to gather up some more information for you if you are interested.
Lexi

Thank you very much for the link Lexi.
However, from what I've got from the article, the Russian Orthodox Church was hesitant to endorse the decision of the burial, and didn't doubt the actual identity of the remains.

Quote from the article (my bolding):

Meanwhile, the Russian Orthodox Church, is hesitant to endorse the burial resolution. The Church's spokesman and second in authority to the Patriarch, Metropolitan Yuvenaly, stated that it is imperative that there be absolute agreement regarding the identity of the remains. Since the testing and conclusions have met with controversy and disagreement from various factions and believed, by some, to be a sensational hoax by the Yeltsin government, the Church is not yet prepared to fully endorse this decision.

While the Church does not necessarily doubt the findings of the tests, it is concerned about going forward with canonization of the Romanovs if the conclusion as to the identity of the remains should prove to be in error.
The branch of the Russian Orthodox Church, outside of the former Soviet Union, has already canonized the Romanov victims as Holy Martyrs. In the Orthodox and Catholic traditions, the relics of Saints are preserved in church altars and certain holy linens. This is one reason for the Church's hesitancy and the fact that they will consider the upcoming July burial a temporary one. For the time being, the remains are housed in Yekaterinburg, in a police morgue.

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Thank you very much for the link Lexi.
However, from what I've got from the article, the Russian Orthodox Church was hesitant to endorse the decision of the burial, and didn't doubt the actual identity of the remains.

Quote from the article (my bolding):

I'll have to do some more looking. Let me check.

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Thank you very much for the link Lexi.
However, from what I've got from the article, the Russian Orthodox Church was hesitant to endorse the decision of the burial, and didn't doubt the actual identity of the remains.

Quote from the article (my bolding):

Here is more information. The subject of identity of the remains was quite cohtroversial. One of the best sources of information on this is the book I mentioned which explains the controversy quite well. In fact, when the funeral service was finally conducted, Archpriest Boris Glebov, conducted the service because the Patriarch Alexi II refused to participate. Glebov was forbidden by the Holy Synod to to mention the names of Nicholas, Alexandra and their children. Instead, they were referred to as "Christian victims of the Revolution." Here are some excerpts:

"The truth is, I don't know who I am burying. I am just doing what the Church tells me. It is not up to me to decide whose bones there are. I am just a priest doing my job," Giebov said in at interview. (Source Fate of the Romanovs; pp. 491.)


At the time, the Russian Orthodox Church was considering cannonizing the Imperial Family. The ROC outside of Russia had done so in 1981. This also contributed to the controvery over the remains. If I recall, another concern of the ROC inside Russia was that the remains were found in an area where victims of the Revolution were commonly buried.


"Just before the canonizations, the holy synod, through Metropolitan Yuvenaly, declared, 'Since no new data have emerged over the past years, the position of the Church has not changed. Thus, the remains buried in St. Peter and St. Paul in St. Petersburg will not be considered holy relics of the glorified Imperial Family.' The Orthodox Church in Ruissa, with this announcement, proclaimed it continuing disbelief in the Ekaterinburg remains; officially, to the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia, the physical remains of the Romanovs have never been found." Source: FOTR, King & Wilson pp, 502). The source for the quote used in Kind & Wilson is The Moscow Times, published August 15, 2000.

As far as I know the Patriarch has never acknowledged the remains as those of the Imperial Family.

The Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia took the position that the remains of the Imperial Family could never be found because they believed the results of the Sokolov invesitgation which stated that the remains had been burned and dissolved with acid. Therefore their position was the remains found in Ekaterinburg were part of an ruse or forgery.

There are some sources. As you can see, the issue is quite complex and a tad convoluted. Please let me know if you are interested in more source material and I will try to track it down. I do so enjoy these discussions.
Lexi

[BorisRom]

2004:
http://www.gzt.ru/politics/2004/12/08/041456.html (in Russian)
On January, 30th, 1998 the state commission under Boris Nemtsov's presidency has finally recognized the Ekaterinburg's remains as imperial. Neither ForeignChurch, nor Russian Orthodox with it have disagreed. Metropolitan Krutitsky Yuvenaly has given the special report warning against a hasty burial place, and Patriarch Moscow Alexey II has refused to arrive on a solemn burial place of the remains to Petersburg on June, 17th, 1998. Last examination of 2004 on DNA, made in Stanford university (USA), has not confirmed the remains as imperial's ones too.
Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin, the vice-president of a department of external church communications of a patriarchy, has explained, that «earlier the church commission on canonization sacred has not received answers to a lot of the questions of principle put before the state commission, therefore it was not accepted decision to recognize these remains belonging imperial family. There are no evidences about a place-site of true imperial remains. About people, whose remains lay in an imperial tomb, the Church prays as for victims of awful bolsheviks's authority, but without a mention of names».

2007:
http://www.patriarchia.ru/db/text/271292.html (in Russian)
The position of Russian Orthodox Church concerning so-called «the Ekaterinburg remains» is remaining constant, archbishop Tikhvin Konstantin has declared.

The governmental commission (1998) till now has not answered on 10 questions of ROC (at least half of these questions are extremely essential)

[BorisRom]

ROC’s questions:
1. Stomatologic examination;
2. Full anthropological research of bone remains;
3. The divergence of results of domestic (Russian's) examination and the conclusion of professor Maples concerning identification of remains N6 (Anastasia or Maria?);
4. The analysis of conclusions of the investigation of Kolchak's government (of N.Sokolov) about utter annihilation of all imperial family and comparison of other results of investigation 1918-1924 and modern investigation;
5. Examination of Yurovsky's note/records (graphological, stylistic);
6. Examination concerning a bone callous on the skull of Nicholas II (an absence of a trace of impact by the Japanese sabre);
7. Finding-out of destiny of the remains of heir Alexey and his sister;
8. The conclusion about opportunities of utter annihilation of two corpses (quantity of fire wood, kerosene, an acid, time and other conditions);
9. Acknowledgement or a refutation of ritual character of murder;
10. Acknowledgement or refutation of the certificate of a cutting off of Nicholas's II head - right after his murders.

The questions NN 1-8 (and NN 3 and 6 especially) are remaining very important till now

[lexi4]

Hello Boris! I see you are here too.
I have a question for you, has the Russian Orthodox Church inside Russia recently accepted the remains as those of the Imperial Family? It is my understanding that they have not.
Lexi

[lexi4]

Avalon,
I hope I answered your questions in my previous posts. If not, please let me know and I will dig deeper.
Lexi

Originally Posted by Avalon

Really? That's interesting, I never knew the Russian Orthodox Church doesn't acknowledge the remains belonf the the Imperial Family.
Could you give a source or link to an article?

[BorisRom]

Lexi,
they have not.
Boris
I'm glad to see you here too :)

Originally Posted by lexi4

Hello Boris! I see you are here too.
I have a question for you, has the Russian Orthodox Church inside Russia recently accepted the remains as those of the Imperial Family? It is my understanding that they have not.
Lexi

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by BorisRom

Lexi,
they have not.
Boris
I'm glad to see you here too :)

At this point, I don't the the ROC could acknowledge that the remains found in Koptyaki Forest because the family has been canonized as Passion Bearers. Also because the ROC has said the bones found in Koptyaki Forest are not "holy relics." That speaks volumes.
Lexi

[BorisRom]

Originally Posted by lexi4

At this point, I don't the the ROC could acknowledge that the remains found in Koptyaki Forest because the family has been canonized as Passion Bearers. Also because the ROC has said the bones found in Koptyaki Forest are not "holy relics." That speaks volumes.
Lexi

Lexi,
The canonization of Imperial family as Passion Bearers (in 2000) has no attitude to refuse of ROC to recognize the remains as Imperial's ones (in 1998).
ROC had 10 questions in 1998 and they have these 10 (or 8, or 7) till now.
Till now the ROC does not consider DNA-tests as the sufficient proof (100%) of authenticity of the remains of Koptyaki Forest
Boris

[Ex-Princess Lisa]

The ROC have said they will reconsider whether to recognise the first set of remains, if the second set of remains do test positive for Alexis and Maria.

[lexi4]

Originally Posted by Ex-Princess Lisa

The ROC have said they will reconsider whether to recognise the first set of remains, if the second set of remains do test positive for Alexis and Maria.

I hadn't heard that. Could you give us source please?