Identification of the remains found in 2007: Alexei and Marie (Coble, 2009)

[AGRBear]

We do not know if four grand duchesses have been found and will not know until the scientist give us the information that there are four grand duchesses with four of their own individual markers. Until they do provide us with that information, you nor I can know if the female bones found in the two pits in July of 2007 aren't planted (bones taken from the other grave and placed in a pit next to) Alexei's remains, which the DNA and mtDNA seemed to have proven as being the missing Tsarevich.


Probably (highly likely) AWF's will follow this with the claim that all the female bones found provide us with the all the bones necessary to show there are four female remains. Wrong. When I have time, I'll provide you with information about the number of bones as well as which bones. Over on my forum I'll place the various photos I've found that include the parts of the skeletons found.

Since I'm very busy at this time, this won't happen today or tomorrow. I've got to clean a chicken coup, find some tile for one of the new bathrooms, and deal with the other stuff in my life outside the world of the web.

Meanwhile maybe someone other than AWF would like to take a crack at the answer to my question:

>>How many pieces of wet unseason wood and gallons of kerosene would it take to burn the bodies so there would only be a few fragments of bone and couple of teeth that would be found in the condition the remains were found in 2007? Remember, the heat would have to be almost 1,400 to 1,800 degrees. And how many hours would it take? Oh, and, don't forget the fellows had to go out into the woods and find the wood...drag it back to the pits, stack it under and around the bodies.... How long do you think that would have taken? <<

AGRBear

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by Russophile

Yes Annie, we know that you think that way.

It's not me thinking, it's the truth, it's reality, it's the way it is. It's not a case of opinion vs. opinion when we have an answer. I'm sorry you don't like the answer, but that doesn't change anything, or make bear's theories credible.

As far as Bear's 'experiment', there is no evidence at all they used nearly that much wood. This is what I was trying to say about the Star Wars-like pyres, that's not the size. The fire was small and low to the ground. The last thing the'd want to do is set up a smoke signal, or light up the night sky, for the local peasants, or approaching Whites, to see.

Doesn't all this belong in the 'pit found in 2007' thread anyway?

[Russophile]

Sure, Warren can move this over there.
Though there are still a lot of unanswered questions that the rest of us like to mull around and we can. Just like you can continue to keep saying AA wasn't AN and whatever else you say. . .

[OlgaNikolaievna]

There are no more 'unanswered questions.' The DNA tests answered the questions, every body has now been found. If anybody thinks anything else they are just reading things into it that don't exist because they want to believe in claimants. This is an insult to those who worked hard to find and test the bones. It's only a game played by those who refuse to accept the reality of the results.

[ChatNoir]

Maybe you could post a link to the results of those DNA tests?

[OlgaNikolaievna]

If you would step into the light of the real world you could see once again many news stories from all major news services telling how the results from labs in Russia, US and Austria all confirmed the last two children found because the DNA matched the family. The stories were from May and again in July. Only a few days ago there were more stories about the rehabilitation of the Tsar and the Russians admitting the family's killing was wrong. Have you ever noticed that the news stories all state as a fact that the family all died that night in 1918. This is a real and accepted fact and the only people who don't accept it are a small number of message board posters who wish to continue to believe in Anna Anderson or Heino Tammet.

[ChatNoir]

Pardon my ignorance, but all I have seen, are conflicting statements from laypeople. So far, I have seen no statements from the scientists who did the actual tests. Where are they?

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

There are no more 'unanswered questions.' The DNA tests answered the questions, every body has now been found. If anybody thinks anything else they are just reading things into it that don't exist because they want to believe in claimants. This is an insult to those who worked hard to find and test the bones. It's only a game played by those who refuse to accept the reality of the results.

Question #1, why doesn't the burn add up about the bodies?
< ed extraneous remarks: Warren > ...what I'm trying to do is flesh the story out. Bear is supplying some information.

[AnastasiaEvidence]

There is NO mystery, and there really shouldn't be any questions. Everything has already been answered and explained. The remains of the Imperial family have all be found and they can finally rest in peace. It's very ridiculous to say that the bones haven't all been found, since the scientists did long testings and took their time to determine that the bones are of the imperial family. People who have questions, obviously didn't read enough and do their research and read the previous thread pages or refuse to except the truth.

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Originally Posted by Russophile

Question #1, why doesn't the burn add up about the bodies?...

Nobody knows for sure exactly what was left after the burning. You cannot go by Bear's test. Anything that was left was rotting away in the ground for 90 years. To dust we shall return! It makes no difference if it was rotted away or if some is still in the ground, it doesn't change the fact that artifacts found prove a male and a female who were children of Tsar and Tsarina, last two missing children, are found and nobody escaped!

what I'm trying to do is flesh the story out.

It's useless to add things that aren't there.

Bear is supplying some information.

Bear is making wild guesses that have nothing to do with the real story. It is wiser to believe the scientists, forensic experts, archaeologists and officials instead of Bear!

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

If you would step into the light of the real world you could see once again many news stories from all major news services telling how the results from labs in Russia, US and Austria all confirmed the last two children found because the DNA matched the family. The stories were from May and again in July. Only a few days ago there were more stories about the rehabilitation of the Tsar and the Russians admitting the family's killing was wrong. Have you ever noticed that the news stories all state as a fact that the family all died that night in 1918. This is a real and accepted fact and the only people who don't accept it are a small number of message board posters who wish to continue to believe in Anna Anderson or Heino Tammet.

You are with the belief that Bear is lurking around in the darkness. I beg to differ with you. Please, take a look at all the news stories I've linked on my forum about the execution of Nicholas II, the discovery of the mass grave, the announcements of the findings of the two pits in July of 2007 as well as the latest on the "rehabilitation of the Romanovs". If I've missed something, let me know.

But truly folks, this isn't about what Bear believes or doesn't believe. It's all about giving everyone information so they can make up their own mind.

My information is from forensic scientists, who do this kind of stuff for the police to solve cases. Dr. Maples, when he was alive had some of the highest of creditials.

So, back to the bones. How many of you know the number of bones found in the human body? For those who don't know, let me tell you. There are 206. Two bodies would mean there should be 412 bones. Easy arithmetic.
In the mass grave there were found 800 bones and fragments for 11 people. The math get's a little more difficult but I've a calulator. 206 X 11 = 2,266. Take away 800 leaves 1,466 bones missing. (Not sure how to deal with the fragments.)

Gosh. Look at the time. Gotta run.

AGRBear

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by AnastasiaEvidence

It's very ridiculous to say that the bones haven't all been found, since the scientists did long testings and took their time to determine that the bones are of the imperial family. People who have questions, obviously didn't read enough and do their research and read the previous thread pages or refuse to except the truth.

Originally Posted by OlgaNikolaievna

Nobody knows for sure exactly what was left after the burning. Anything that was left was rotting away in the ground for 90 years. To dust we shall return! It makes no difference if it was rotted away or if some is still in the ground, it doesn't change the fact that artifacts found prove a male and a female who were children of Tsar and Tsarina, last two missing children, are found and nobody escaped! It is wiser to believe the scientists, forensic experts, archaeologists and officials instead of Bear!

This is all so true! No scientist ever doubted that the remains were the kids. The tests were confirmed in 3 countries and 4 labs. There's no doubt any more.

How is there any significance in not finding every single bone? All they needed was one piece each to get the DNA proof they needed. Bones that are burned and buried a long time can easily dissolve in the mud of the bog. Take for example the bones of Jesse James. He, along with other old west outlaw legends Billy the Kid and Butch Cassidy had claimants- old men who claimed they were the outlaw who had actually survived, and another man had been shot in his place. Lincoln assassin John Wilkes Boothe even had a claimant! But back to Jesse James. I remember seeing the TV show where his body was exhumed, and the coffin was decomposed to almost nothing and the bones badly deteriorated. What I saw on TV was nowhere near the amount of bones for a grown man, but he had partially decomposed, as dead bodies do! Scientists said it was the water and acid in the soil that had caused the damage. Only a hair and some teeth were good enough to be used for DNA, and it was proven- by Dr. Stoneking of the AA case- that Jesse James did indeed die and the claimant was false.

Burned remains would stand even more of a chance of dissolving in a watery old bog, and even if there wasn't acid in the soil, there was acid on the pit, used by the Bolsheviks, and the container was found with the fragments, a perfect match to the containers found in the mass grave! Consider the conditions- water, acid, mud, microorganisms, all add up to DECAY, which equals some bones completely disentigrating over time! IT IS NO BIG DEAL NOT MANY BONES WERE FOUND AND ONE PIECE FROM EACH CHILD WAS ALL THAT WAS NEEDED FOR TESTING! WHY is this even an issue?

For anyone who may be interested, here are some links to the Jesse James, Billy the Kid and Butch Cassidy claimant stories, and DNA tests.

http://lighthousepatriotjournal.word...-age/#_ednref3

http://books.google.com/books?id=lDA...sult#PPA112,M1

http://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/...PAGES/3586.htm

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...stigation.html

[AGRBear]

I'm certainly not talking about Jesse James', Billy the Kid's or Butch Cassidy's claimant stories, and DNA tests.

Nor have I disputed the findings of the various labs involved in the tests of the remains found in the mass grave or the two pits. Yes, others have, including the Russian church, but I have not.

I am assuming that the bones found in the two pits were that of one of the grand duchesses, but which one? We probably will never know. All that I've requested is proof that give us evidence that there were four grand duchesses found between the mass grave and the two pits. And, this they have not yet published. Maybe this month or next, we will be given the results. I don't know. I'm not in any kind of friendship with anyone who might leak information ahead of time, so, like the rest of you, I have to wait and see.

Meanwhile, I and others are still trying to put in order the events which occurred on the night of the 16/17 of July 1918 in the Ipatiev House in Ekaterinburg and the burials. We'd like to place the 'red herrings' in one barrel marked "lies" and place the truth in a precious place where the future generations can read and realize what really happen. It's time that the Russians as well as the world view the crimes that were commited not only with the Royal Family of Russia but elsewhere.

Through the years I've tried to be as honest and forthright while traveling up this path less traveled.

During this journey I have found far too many people who would not like to hear or see what Lenin, Stalin and the butchers like Yurovsky and other founders of the communist regime were capable of doing because of the need to be absolute rulers. Life is what it is and we cannot go back and make it better.

So, yes, we need to unravel the lies. And, forensic science tells us what Yurovsky and the other Bolshevik's claim could not have happened. They could not have destroyed two bodies in two hours in the matter in which they tell us that they did. So, all I'm trying to do is find out is what did they really do with one of the grand duchesses and Alexei, the issue of Nicholas II and Alexandra.

I do not understand why AWF and others do not want to know.

They probably will never understand my quest. That's fine, because as far as I'm concern they can sit in their little boxes with the cover over their heads. They are what they are. I am what I am.

I do become concern if people spread more lies, post misleading information and muddie the waters. They may think they are on the road of good intentions but all they are doing is making it more difficult for those of us who what to untangle this mess created since that eventful night in July of 1918.

When I say I don't care where the truth takes me. It's true. For all I know the Whites, who were not a bunch of angels either, may have planted the female bones from the mass grave to the two pits with the Tsarevich's, just as they probably did with the dog Jemmy in the Four Brother's Mine. I just don't know the answers. But, I promise to keep on looking.

AGRBear

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

I'm certainly not talking about Jesse James', Billy the Kid's or Butch Cassidy's claimant stories, and DNA tests.

Whenever I try to give examples of other cases as analogies, you always say 'what does that have to do with it' or 'I don't care.' Well, you know, your own personal woodpile has nothing to do with this case, either, but you're trying to use it to make a comparison, right? That's my point.

During this journey I have found far too many people who would not like to hear or see what Lenin, Stalin and the butchers like Yurovsky and other founders of the communist regime were capable of doing because of the need to be absolute rulers.

Everyone knows they were bad guys. It's a fact that the Bolsheviks lied about the family being alive when they were actually dead. But there never was, and still isn't, any need to cover up an 'escape' of a family member that never happened.

Life is what it is and we cannot go back and make it better.

That's true, like that the whole family died, all the claimants were fakes, as unfun as that is, and as disappointing it is for those who liked the mystery.

So, yes, we need to unravel the lies.

Everything the Bolsheviks said about the disposal of the bodies proved true once they were found, even the burn pit.

And, forensic science tells us what Yurovsky and the other Bolshevik's claim could not have happened. They could not have destroyed two bodies in two hours in the matter in which they tell us that they did. So, all I'm trying to do is find out is what did they really do with one of the grand duchesses and Alexei, the issue of Nicholas II and Alexandra.

They said they burned them, and two burned bodies were found, just where Yurovsky said they'd be. Even though the bodies weren't completely burned, after decomposing in a wet bog for 9 decades, there wasn't much left. As I said in my earlier post, the small amount of bones doesn't mean anything for that reason, and it certainly doesn't mean they 'lied' and something else happened to the Grand duchess and Tsarevich! Bones found in the pit tested as matches for a a male and female child of N and A. What's the problem again?

I do not understand why AWF and others do not want to know.

I did want to know, for many years. But now I DO know, because the bodies were found and identified. Denying this is only a conspiracy for those who refuse to give up the claimant stories.

When I say I don't care where the truth takes me. It's true.

If you really don't care, why not just accept the reality of the findings and the testings and stop inventing fanfiction sci-fi to make the story continue and change it to a more preferred outcome?

For all I know the Whites, who were not a bunch of angels either, may have planted the female bones from the mass grave to the two pits with the Tsarevich's, just as they probably did with the dog Jemmy in the Four Brother's Mine. I just don't know the answers. But, I promise to keep on looking.

AGRBear

So now it's the Whites?! Bear, the Whites never found the burial site, remember? This is well documented! The site wasn't found until 1979, and not unearthed until 1991. All this is only a story you make up in your imagination that has no basis in fact whatsoever.

The idea that ANYONE planted a piece of bone from the mass grave is positively preposterous, to put it mildly. The Whites never found the grave, and as for the Bolsheviks, we know from the reports that the burned bodies were FIRST, and then covered up, and all the rest dumped in the larger mass grave. This means that in order to plant a piece of the bones from the girls in the mass grave, it would have to have been intentionally broken off, burned to match the bones in the first grave, and the burn pit, which had been carefully hidden, reopened. This could not have happened, for several reasons- first, they were in a big hurry, and didn't have time for such things. Also, there would be no need, motive or purpose to do such a strange thing other than, I am supposing, in your world, to trick people who would find the bodies later, but this makes NO LOGICAL SENSE because they never expected anyone to find them ("the world will never know what we did with them") and most of all, since there would not be DNA testing for another 80+ years, they'd never heard of it, therefore they'd have no reason to think one day it might be tested and they'd have to 'plant' something to fool somebody! So all of your ideas are absolutely unrealistic, and obviously only a desperate grasp to hold onto a legend now settled into the dustbin of history. None of this is even remotely possible or realistic. If you want to spin yarns and dream up alternate fantasy outcomes, please write fanfiction. It's not history.

[AGRBear]

AwF: >>The idea that ANYONE planted a piece of bone from the mass grave is positively preposterous... <<

Why is it so preposterous?

AGRBear

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

AwF: >>The idea that ANYONE planted a piece of bone from the mass grave is positively preposterous... <<

Why is it so preposterous?

AGRBear

I have already explained this in two previous posts, but I'll spell it out again:

1. They didn't have time to be goofing around! As stated by Yurovsky and others, they were rushed for time, afraid the Whites or the local peasants would catch them in the act. They were in a race against sunup. This is why, after two bodies, they realized they all weren't going to have time to burn them all and dumped the rest in the mass grave and split the scene.

2. The burn pit was buried FIRST. This means anything 'planted' from the mass grave would have had to have been burned to match the bones in the burn pit, and the burn pit, already painstakingly hidden, would have to be reopened, and recovered.

3. What would be the motive, reason or goal? Think about it- what would planting a burned piece of hip bone do to 'fool' anyone in 1918? Their forensic testing had not yet developed to the point anyone could tell much about it, and most of all DNA testing would not be invented for another 80+ years! This means that, in the absence of testings, what would be the purpose of planting evidence to 'fool' anyone later, when at the time, such tests did not exist, and would not have been a factor in anyone's mind!

4. The Bolsheviks never intended for the grave to be found ("The world will never know what we did with them"), their goal was destruction, burning dissolving in acid- nothing was planted to trick anyone if it was found, because they made sure it wasn't found, and ....

5. It wasn't found until 1979! The Whites never found the grave, so your idea that they may have done it is even more impossible. And don't even bother to say they must have found it and lied, you know if they did, they'd have made a big deal out of it and made the Bolsheviks pay- and we'd have been spared all the years of 'mystery!' Remember they, not the Red Army, were in control of Ekaterinburg during their searches. They considered it a failure the grave wasn't found, and the fact that it wasn't found is well documented in history, dating back to their official reports, the results of which were published first in 1920's "Last Days of the Romanovs."

6. Since no one in those days ever dreamed - or had nightmares- of there being claimants, they would never have thought to try to sabotage the claimants years in advance.

7. There is/was NO "political" purpose for making anyone believe Anastasia was dead when she was alive, when in reality, it was the other way around- they tried for awhile to make people think Alix and the girls were alive when they were dead! ("Perm" stories) Today, it is an accepted fact in history, science and news that the entire family died the same night, and it would not be to anyone's advantage to lie about that, especially not now, so all the bogeymen/women who allegedly did all this covert stuff, whom you all cannot name or give motives for, do not/did not exist!


IS THAT ENOUGH?!

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

I have already explained this in two previous posts, but I'll spell it out again:

1. They didn't have time to be goofing around! As stated by Yurovsky and others, they were rushed for time, afraid the Whites or the local peasants would catch them in the act. They were in a race against sunup. This is why, after two bodies, they realized they all weren't going to have time to burn them all and dumped the rest in the mass grave and split the scene.

I agree, Yurovsky and his burial gang did not have time.

I agree that Yurovsky said they raced against sunup.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

2. The burn pit was buried FIRST. This means anything 'planted' from the mass grave would have had to have been burned to match the bones in the burn pit, and the burn pit, already painstakingly hidden, would have to be reopened, and recovered.

I assume you meant that the body/bodies were burned first.

Yurovsky has left two testimonies. One with his son which tells us only one body was burned.

The other testimonies which were under the guiding eye of the Bolsheviks tell us that Yurovsky said that they burned Alexei and Demidova. (Evidently, Yurovsky had given orders that Alexandra was the one he wanted burned. For some reason he believed Demidova was instead. Neither Alexandra or Demidova were burned.)

Bones can be dug up and burned and buried at any time.

Until we have the markers showing us that the excavation of these two burial ground prove there were four grand duchesses, then we don't know if there are four grand duchesses found. Sure, you can assume four were found, BUT, I learned not to make assumptions because I don't think I look good with egg on my face.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

....The Whites never found the grave....

At this time, I will agree to eliminate the Whites as having been the culprits of planting any bones in 1918.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

....[in part]... and most of all, since there would not be DNA testing for another 80+ years, they'd never heard of it, therefore they'd have no reason to think one day it might be tested and they'd have to 'plant' something to fool somebody!.

If it is true that someone took bones from the mass grave and planted them in the two pits: Taking a few bones from three grand duchess would not be missed in 1918 to 2007.

I agree no one in 1918 knew about DNA and mtDNA. But, we do now so I'd like to see all the results:

1. Markers that there were four grand duchesses.

2. Evidence that Alexandra was a carrier of hemophia;Alexis had hemophilia; and which, if any, were the grand duchess carriers of hemophilia.

I'll be back to answer the rest of AWF's questions as I have time.

AGRBear