Identification of the remains found in 2007: Alexei and Marie (Coble, 2009)

[Russophile]

Cool! Thanks! I had forgotten that site.

[AGRBear]

Sorry, the link I provided doesn't work so I'll have to go find it.... It was an article on the remains found in the mass grave that was collected by the scientists.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

Here is the html text for the article in Volumn 285, Issue 1, Pages 15-32, Lev L Koesnikov, Gurge A. Pashinyan, and Sergey S. Abramov's report which includes photographs, sketches and why they think the missing body is GD Maria and not GD Anastasia.
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies
Published 2 March 2001.

In their conclusion they wrote:

>>There is broad agreement among the osteological studies by Popov ([1994], [1996]), Zviagin and Zinin ([1987]), Maples and Browning ([1994]), and those reported here. We all agree on the identifications of the Tsar, his wife, his retainers and his daughters Olga and Tatiana. The only significant difference is whether the missing daughter is Maria or Anastasia. Genetic studies confirm the osteological identifications as far as they are able to determine. These studies confirm the gender assessments of the skeletons, identify the Tsar and his wife specifically, and identify his three daughters generally. Unfortunately, the genetic studies are unable to specifically identify the Tsar's daughters individually.<<

[J Kendrick]

While the quote may be correct... the facts of the quote are not.

In truth, the Russian and American forensic teams have agreed on the identification of only one daughter... that Body Three is Olga.

The US forensic team insists to this day that Body 5 is Maria and Body 6 is Tatiana. The Russian team continues to insist that Body 5 is Tatiana and Body 6 is Anastasia. So, in actual fact, the US and Russian teams still do not agree, either, on which of the bodies is Tatiana.

As a result of this same very clear disagreement over the identification of Bodies 5 and 6, the reality of the matter is that the missing daughter could just as easily be Tatiana as it could be either Anastasia or Marie.

JK

[AGRBear]

Here is an example of just part of the wood would have been needed to have burned the bodies, which would have left just burned the skin, melted the fat and left two burnt corpses still in tact without having done anything but scorched the bones. For more details, take a look at a forensic web site and they can provide you with the details.

My quote is found on AP as my own forum:

[quote author=1 post_id=906 date=1194715577]Some poster suggested it would have taken atleast a cord of wood to have burned two bodies:

>>While waiting for the dishwasher man, let me present the photo with the two half cords of wood:




Noitce that the wood has been split .

AGRBear<<

>> Notice the uncut pile of wood behind the two neatly stacked one half cut and split cords of wood:



AGRBear<<

PS Forgot to add this important information about the wood:

>>1 cord of uncut season wood weighs between 2,500 and 3,500 pounds which is a lot of weight the exhausted men had to find and carry back to the where they claimed they burned the bodies<<

I for one do not believe AA was GD Anastasia, so, I'm not trying to convince anyone that she was. My concern is the evidence being presented by the Russians from 17 July 1918 to the present. I'm only looking for the truth of it all. I don't care where the truth takes me.

AGRBear

[COUNTESS]

Did they use wood or a combustible chemical, like gasoline? Need much less of that.

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by AGRBear

it was not possible to burn pork or human bodies to ashes in the time frame given to us

Being a a bog for 90 years would have a hand in disentigrating and dissolving much of what was left, don't you think?

What Anna claims is her opinion.
AGRBear

It is not my 'opinion' that DNA proved AA was not AN, and that all five children have been found. This is proven fact.

I'm only looking for the truth of it all. I don't care where the truth takes me.

Bear, you've been saying this for years now, but the problem is, when we get answers, you deny them because you don't like the outcome and go searching for oddball conspiracies that give you a result you like better. This means you do not want the truth, you want the game to be played again and again until your side wins, or is kept in perpetual confusion by your wild goose chase.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

Bear, you've been saying this for years now, but the problem is, when we get answers, you deny them because you don't like the outcome and go searching for oddball conspiracies that give you a result you like better. This means you do not want the truth, you want the game to be played again and again until your side wins, or is kept in perpetual confusion by your wild goose chase.

AWF, I would suggest you go to Bear's site: RomanovsRussia :: Login She has gone into minute detail over EVERYTHING. Her site boggles the mind. Everything is dissected and examined. This supports her claim for wanting the truth. Nobody who didn't want TRUTH would go into this much detail. They would be more than happy to spin yarns.

[Anna was Franziska]

I am well aware of Bear's theories, this is why I posted what I did. Bear does not want the truth, she wants a different answer.

[Russophile]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

I am well aware of Bear's theories, this is why I posted what I did. Bear does not want the truth, she wants a different answer.

I don't know, the evidence about the amount of wood it would take to burn a couple of kids' bodies is pretty darned compelling. . ..

[AGRBear]

Originally Posted by Anna was Franziska

I am well aware of Bear's theories, this is why I posted what I did. Bear does not want the truth, she wants a different answer.

My theories? No. I'm not the first one who questioned all of this information which AWF claims I am personally responsible.

Like I have suggested, anyone can find a forensic web site, find the section on burning human bodies, and, you will discover what I've discovered. Burning bodies in the time frame Yurovsky and the others have testified is not possible.

The National Geographic Special gave us the testimony of their scientist, who has voiced the same as other scientists involved in this case. Not possible.

Yes, the Bolsheviks claimed there was a lot of kerosene taken from the Bolshevik storage. And, no, the kerosene used alone would not have been capable of burning the two bodies as suggested by the Bolsheviks. In fact, it is believed that some of the kerosene is known to have gone into the hands of others and it's quite possible some of it went into the hands of blackmarketeers so no one is sure how much of it was actually used on Alexis and possibly one grand duchess.

Yes, the Bolsheviks make claim that there was lye used. There is evidence in the both the mass grave and the two pits that this is true. But, due to the action of the watery grave and other chemical reactions, it would not have decomposed the bodies to the extent that only a few pieces of bone and a few teeth would be found 90 or 200 years later.

It's the mystery of the teeth that interests me most. Every mouth has a certain number of teeth. I have 25. Take away molars [since I'm not sure how many the grand duchess and Alexis had cut) there are still plenty of teeth missing one would find in my grave after 90 years of my death. So, where are the rest of the teeth of Alexis and a female grand duchess [Maria or Anastasia]?

There are a lot of unanswered questions.

Since it's proven that it would take a lot of wood with the kerosene, and, IF the two bodies had indeed been burned and burned and burned more than thirty some hours, then, why doesn't any testimony tell us? What difference does it make if they tell us the truth instead of trying to convince us that it took two hours? If that is what happen then that's what happen.

AGRBear

[Russophile]

Because they lied Bear.
Like Peter Kurth says, "It's all political."

[AGRBear]

>>...the Bolsheviks make claim that there was lye used<<

I need to correct this. They didn't use lye. The chemicals used plus the ashes may have produce a mixture that one uses to make lye. But the scientist have shown that this mixture, if it did occur, would not have been the reason why too few bones have been found in the two pits.

Sorry for the incorrect information.

AGRBear

[OlgaNikolaievna]

Why does it matter if every piece of the burned bodies is found or not? All that was needed was one piece from the female and one piece from the male to prove that they were both children of Nicholas and Alexandra. That is what was tested and the results proved that every one of the children are now accounted for. Why does anyone have to keep inventing strange secrets that are not there? It is more exciting that way but it's not factual. There is no "political" reason to fake anything concerning these bones. It did not happen.

[Russophile]

Well obviously they (Yurovsky and co.) were lying when they said they burnt the bodies et. all because it couldn't physically happen, as Bear proved. It doesn't matter to you that they lied, you have already made your mind up. But to those of us still investigating this, it matters a lot.
I'm sure they hacked the bodies up or somebody spirited them away only to have them die later, they WERE of thin blood, Alexi having a form of hemophilia and the girls were said to have bled easily, but it still raises questions. And I do so appreciate Bear's meticulousness about this subject. She's like Gil Grissom in CSI. . . .

[Anna was Franziska]

As Bear has proven? You believe Bear over scientists and history? Not me. I don't think she's proven Yurovsky lied about burning the bodies at all. They admitted they didn't burn all the way, and they buried them in the bog, and that the reason they dumped the others in the mass grave was because they knew they weren't going to burn fast enough and they were in a hurry. Everything that has been found has been exactly what, and where, Yurovsky said it would be. Imagining other scenarios may be fun for "X Files: I Want to Believe" but not reality. Everyone is going to think what they want to think anyway.


One more thing though, I don't think they used nearly the amount of wood in bear's picture. When someone says 'funeral pyre' it's easy to imagine the ones in "Star Wars" (Vader, Qui Gon) but I really think the ones the Bolsheviks used was just a few pieces of wood on the ground. "Pyre" seems to have been a symbolic term.

[Russophile]

Yes I believe Bear. She's done the leg work. None of those scientists have. Have they made conditions like that to test it? Nope. They are strictly DNA and their samples still could have come from the family.
BTW. . . Star Wars is a fantasy movie.

[AGRBear]

The time it takes to burn a body with different means can be found on the web sites which provide forensic data. It is not Bear's information. So, I'm not sure why AWF continues to give me the credit.

Here is a quote I've written on AP about the time frame and the amount of heat needed:

There was more than wood used for the fire. Added to this was keroscene.

Yurovsky's 1920s report:
>>..around 8'oclock in the evening on the 17th, everything necessary began to be gathered; the kerosene, the sulfuric acid..... It had been planned to leave at 11 o'clock at night, but the incident with the Chekist held things up, and we left for the mine, togather with ropes to drag out the corpses... around 12:30 on the night of the 17th to the 18th.<<



Yurovsky's tells us in his 1934 report

>>I drove to Voikov, head of supply in the Urals, to get petrol or kerosene, sulphuric acid too (to disfigure the faces) and, besides that, spades.<<

>>Meanehile, dawn came (this was already the third day, the 18th). The thought was to bury some of the corpses....<<

This was by the mine but this was abandoned.

They loaded the bodies and carried them to this point in time:

>>...around 4:30 in the morning of the 19th, one of the vehicles got stuck....<<

Yurovsky's 1920 >>We wanted to burn A. and A. F. but by mistake the lady-in-waiting was burnt with A. instead. We then immediately buried the remains under the fire and lit the fire again, which completely overed up traces of the diggings.<<

The digging of the mass grave was in Pig's Meadow and was ready about "...7 o'clock..." Yurovsky told us in 1920.

In his 1934 report Yurovsky told us:

>>...covered over it [mass grave] with railway ties.... and were done with it. At 5 or 6 o'lock in the morning, we gathered everyone together, explained the importance of what we had accomplished, warned everyone.... The boys from the regional Cheka who had lost track of us --comrades Isai Rodzinsky, Gorin and someone else--arrived when we had already finished with everything.<<

If the fire on the two bodies started as early as 4:40 in the morning and they were finished by 5, I don't think the two bodies being burnt some 60/70 km away would have had time to burn two bodies to a few bones and ashes.

If the fire on the two bodies lasted from 4:30 to 6, I still don't think was long enough.

According to all the forensic stuff I've found on google, a body in a crematorium subjected to a tremendous amount of heat takes two to two and one half hours. The temperature would be at 1,400 to 1,800 degrees. Even after this, there still will be fragments of bones and teeth....

It seem to me the burning of two bodies by Yurovsky would not have been as effective as a cremation in a crematorium.

Some of the experts are saying, the bodies would have not been burned to ashes and bones, then the only difference would have been about 40 days, [days the regular decomposition of bodies without the burning away of flesh and fat which would have occured with fire]. Both the two pits and the mass grave were in the same kind of ground and subjected to the same kind of temperatures. Both the mass pit and the two pits just found had sulferic acid.

Could Yurovsky and his men generate enough heat in an open fire that was fueled by kerosene and I presume wood between 4:30 and 5:30, bury the two bodies then build another fire and then douse the fire and spread the ashes before ....?

AGRBear

The answer is, "No."

AWF,

How many pieces of wet unseason wood and gallons of kerosene would it take to burn the bodies so there would only be a few fragments of bone and couple of teeth that would be found in the condition the remains were found in 2007? Remember, the heat would have to be almost 1,400 to 1,800 degrees. And how many hours would it take? Oh, and, don't forget the fellows had to go out into the woods and find the wood...drag it back to the pits, stack it under and around the bodies.... How long do you think that would have taken?

[Anna was Franziska]

Originally Posted by Russophile

BTW. . . Star Wars is a fantasy movie.

So is bear's theory.

If the DNA says it's the Romanov kids, nothing else matters, we have our answer.

[Russophile]

Yes Annie, we know that you think that way. What I don't know is the circumstances AROUND that. And I believe that is the question I was addressing from ON. There were other things going on like the inept burning of the bodies that people like me want to know about. And Bear delivers. I find that fascinating. That's more information coming out and adding flesh (no pun intended) to the historical account. You want to stop at "They found the bodies, they have the DNA." Fine. Do that. < ed extraneous comments: Warren >