Grand Duke Kyrill (1876-1938) and Grand Duchess Victoria Melita 'Ducky' (1876-1936)

[AristoCat]

Originally Posted by Royal Fan

Very cool clip werent that brance of the Family known to be Haughty?

And virulently ambitious; Marie wanted her son Boris married to Olga, the eldest daughter of Nicholas II and Alexandra vehemently vetoed it on the grounds that Boris was too immoral and moved in too fast of a set. Marie was actively plotting at one point to stage a coup and then depose Nicholas and Alexandra.

[Cory]

Remembering the marriage of Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna, Grand Duke Kyrill sister:

Noblesse & Royautés » Mariées du Gotha : Elena de Russie, princesse de Grèce

[Grandduchess24]

Didn't czar Nicholas II have some sort of tension towards his cousins who married each other ?

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Grandduchess24

Didn't czar Nicholas II have some sort of tension towards his cousins who married each other ?

Nicholas II objected to Cyril's marriage to Victoria and banished him from Russia for marrying without seeking his permission, something that was required by the Pauline Laws. Ducky was denied the title of Grand Duchess and Cyril's estates and income were seized.

Later, he forgave them and they were allowed to return to Russia. He issued a decree recognizing Victoria as HIH Grand Duchess Viktoria Feodorovna (she converted to Orthodoxy in France) and Marie was recognized as a Princess of the Blood Imperial.

The cousin issue was irrelevant to the Emperor. Many of his relatives married their cousins and this was typical of royal marriages at the time.

[NGalitzine]

Nicholas II refused permission to his brother Michael to marry Beatrice of Saxe Coburg Gotha because they were 1st cousins, much to the distress of both Beatrice and her mother. The Russian Orthodox Church does not approve of 1st cousin marriages.

[fearghas]

Originally Posted by Grandduchess24

Didn't czar Nicholas II have some sort of tension towards his cousins who married each other ?

Much of his antipothy towards Ducky and Cyril may have been fostered by his wife who detested the woman who divorced the tsarinas brother.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by NGalitzine

Nicholas II refused permission to his brother Michael to marry Beatrice of Saxe Coburg Gotha because they were 1st cousins, much to the distress of both Beatrice and her mother. The Russian Orthodox Church does not approve of 1st cousin marriages.

Yes, this is true, although Nicholas may have felt it was too controversial for Grand Duke Michael, much closer in succession to the throne than Cyril Vladimirovich, to enter into such a marriage.

However, the Tsar was the final authority over both Church and Imperial House and could authorize exceptions to any or all of the Statutes, including religious ones.

[Ultramare]

@NGalitzine: The Roman Cartholic Church also doesn´t allow 1st cousin marriages. Do the Lutheran Churches allow it?

[fearghas]

Originally Posted by Ultramare

@NGalitzine: The Roman Cartholic Church also doesn´t allow 1st cousin marriages. Do the Lutheran Churches allow it?

The church may nor allow it but it didn't stop many Catholics (royal or otherwise) from marrying their first cousins.

[Grandduchess24]

And yet princess Victoria melita married to her cousins and I guess it was okay?
Firstly to grand duke Ernst Ludwig of Hesse to whom they had a daughter but she died young and then secondly to Cyril to which she had 3 children I personally find it weird to marry your cousin and then have children with them.

[Vasillisos Markos]

My dear Grandduchess24.

Yes, to us common folk it does seem strange but to the royals it was not strange at all. The pharoahs of Egypt even married siblings! I have not made as study of familial marriages but in the deep South of not long ago, it was not uncommon for cousins to marry in the United States. So it is really not so strange that royals intermarried, especially when their ranks were dwindling.

[XeniaCasaraghi]

The pharaohs of Egypt reigned centuries ago, the royals being discussed reigned 1 century ago when the idea of royals needing to marry each other was just starting it's decline.
I don't recall reading that Nicholas had a particular personal position on first cousin marriage.
I do wonder why Russian Orthodoxy says no but the other European religions were ok with it, even after the disaster of the Hapsburg's.

[Vasillisos Markos]

My dear XeniaCasaraghi,

My point in referencing the pharoahs is that royalty wished to keep itself as royal as possible -- by this I mean that royal blood wished or was commanded to marry others of royal blood. That's why there certain marriages were morganatic when one married beneath his or her royal rank and as a consequence their children lost their royal status.

Because of this desire to marry other royals, I believe royalty was not adverse to marrying relatives because of course their blood was royal. Things have changed today but for centuries this was the way it was.

[Russophile]

Arranged mostly, as we all know, however as in Kyril and Ducky's case true love.

[BeatrixFan]

I've just finished reading the van der Kiste biography of Ducky - well worth a read incidentally. I couldn't help thinking (and it pains me to say it) that had they listened to the Grand Duchess Vladimir and removed Nicky and Alix and installed Cyril and Ducky, Russia might well have a monarchy to this day. Slightly controversial thinking yes, I'm all for God's anointed but it seems to me that they would have worked to make Russia a constitutional monarchy and done it well.

[COUNTESS]

Interesting take. There is no such thing as God's anointed, just a made up phrase by those who took power and wanted to keep the people in tow. What you needed were people who cared about something other than themselves, I don't think Cyril and Duckuy were those people. Actually, except for Ella, there were no Romanovs that gave a hoot for the peasant's plight.

[BeatrixFan]

I disagree. Grand Duke Cyril had the support of the army, he was popular with the people too. When the reds got to Finland, they actually left Cyril and Ducky alone because they respected them. Kerensky was a big supporter of theirs, purely because they'd both tried to make the Tsar and Tsarina see sense. Ducky even went so far as to demand that the Tsarina got out of politics to Alix's face. Cyril said he wanted to work with the provisional government (hence the meeting he's always criticised for) and I think had they been allowed to shine a little earlier, Cyril would have been the ideal Tsar to carry the dynasty on. Yes they lived in luxury, name me a Romanov that didn't (even Ella had special comforts in her convent) but to me, Cyril and Ducky seem like they actually cared about Russia and not just the monarchy.

[Vasillisos Markos]

My dear BeatrixFan,

I must read this book. Thank you for your thoughts on what might have been. Do you feel, after reading the book, that the author was objective about his subjects and how they were perceived by the Russians? The book seems to paint the Vladimirovni in a much more flattering light that I had ever heard or read before. It is true that they escaped the fate of many Romanovs and perhaps there is some truth in what you write. I just wonder if the book may be like Massie's Nicholas and Alexandra. In my opinion, I think Massie romanticized his subjects, possibly because of his interest in hemophilia. Nicholas and Alexandra were not entirely bad but Massie seemed to gloss over their faults and portrayed them as doomed to be murdered no matter what they did.

[BeatrixFan]

I think there's no doubt that van der Kiste has respect for his subject but he doesn't shy away from criticism, it's one of the more objective accounts of their lives. I know exactly what you mean though, it's hard for an author to be critical of his subject, there must be a ore-conceived preference to begin writing such a book. But it's well worth a read and though he does lay into Kyril a bit in places (and he's fairly critical of Nicholas and Alexandra), as an account of Ducky's life, it's pretty bias free. In my opinion!

[Vasillisos Markos]

My dear BeatrixFan,

Thanks for the reply. I will have to get the book and read it--it sounds like a good read. I do recall reading somewhere that Cyril broke Ducky's heart when she found out he had been unfaithful to her. It sounds like she was the more noble and admirable of the two -- a true granddaughter of Queen Victoria!