Grand Duke Kyrill (1876-1938) and Grand Duchess Victoria Melita 'Ducky' (1876-1936)

[ElizaP]

Grand Duchess Viktoria Feodorovna of Russia, born Princess Victoria Melita (25 November 1876 – 2 March 1936), was a member of the British Royal Family, a granddaughter of Queen Victoria...

[1891: Meeting of Victoria Melita and Cyril Vladimirovich Romanov at a Russian funeral, whereupon the following happened:]

[Victoria Melita and Cyril Vladimirovich] were deeply attracted to one another, [yet] Victoria's mother was reluctant to allow her to marry him.

[As a consequence, Victoria Melita was not permitted to pursue a relationship with Cyril but was more or less forced to marry Enest-Louis of Hesse-Darmstadt instead, because that was the wish of her powerful grandmother's, Queen Victoria of GB.]

You quote Wikipedia; and this is indeed the information given there. But I never found out how this alleged 1891 meeting of Victoria Melita and her cousin Cyril, where they allegedly fell madly in love with each other, even BEFORE Victoria Melita ever set eyes on Ernest Louis of Hesse-Darmstadt, and the whole story of her mother's warning Victoria Melita off Cyril and pressing Ernst-Ludwig’s suit instead has been attested.

How do we know about this alleged meeting between Melita and Cyril?

Hugo Vickers, the author of Alice, Princess Andrew of Greece (a biography of the present Prince Consort Philip's, the Duke of Edinburgh' mother) in this book of 2000 also touches upon the story of Victoria Melita, Ernest-Louis of Hesse and Cyril Vladimirovich but assumes a completely different dating.

Vickers does not know or mention that alleged, fateful 1891 Russian-funeral-meeting of Melita and Cyril at all.

According to him, the first event in the story took place in 1891, and consisted in a meeting of Victoria Melita's and Ernest-Louis' at a party at Balmoral in Scotland. There these two struck up a friendship, which was obvious enough to be observed by Queen Victoria of GB, the grandmother of both, who had hosted this party.

In 1892, when Ernest-Ludwig succeeded his deceased father as Grand-Duke of Hesse-Darmstadt, Queen Victoria proceeded to bargain and make a match between Melita and Ernest reality.

Melita and Ernest did get married in 1894 (this is undisputed).

But according to Vickers, Melita did meet Cyril [whom she married in 1905] only later, namely in 1896.

This alters the story reported in Wikipedia considerably.

I.e., if Wikipedia were right and there had been an early (1891) meeting between Melita and Cyril, with an irrepressible love springing up between the two, which Melita had to suppress to marry Ernest-Louis, the story becomes far more romantic, making Melita a martyr of her first passion etc, than if she met him only two years into her marriage with Ernest.

Which dating is correct? And how do we know it to be correct?

 

[CyrilVladisla]

In 1904, during the Russo-Japanese War, Grand Duke Cyril was on active service when his ship was blown up at Port Arthur. He was one of the few survivors. The experience made him more determined than ever to have Victoria Melita as his wife.

Grand Duke Cyril as Tsar Cyril I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLWpsFY-Aeo

In 1910 Cyril and Victoria moved to Russia, where Nicholas II recognized their marriage. Did Cyril and Victoria's marriage offend the Russian Orthodox Church as much as it offended Nicholas and Alexandra?

Did the Russian Orthodox Church disapprove of only paternal first cousins marrying?

 

[ElizaP]

1904 is a later date, when Melita was already divorced.

What do we know about Cyril's first meeting of Melita, and when did they meet? Before or after Melita's first marriage in 1894?

Is Cyril's and Melita's alleged meeting in September 1891, on the occasion of Gandduchess Alexandra Georgiyevna's funeral (the deceased had been the wife of Grandduke Pavel Alexandrovich) really well-attested? (This meeting is assumed by Wikipedia---but that they met there seems in dispute.)

That is, can one be sure that they already met at a time when apparently there was no question yet of a wedding between Melita and Ernest-Louis?

[NB: There seems to be no quarrel about another meeting of Cyril's and Melita's in 1896 (as guests at the coronation of Nicholas II. of Russia's), when Melita and Ernest-Louis had been married for two years.]

The real date of their first meeting is probably important for the general assessment of the situation, Melita's character and the match making activities of Queen Victoria's of GB. Well, yes, and also to explain the grim countenance of their wedding guests recorded on the famous Coburg wedding photo, where nearly none of the nobles present seems able to muster a smile. The Imperial Court : Photo

 

[Reinosa]

In profile: the British princess who scandalised the royal family | History Extra

An interesting article.

 

[JR76]

In 1910 Cyril and Victoria moved to Russia, where Nicholas II recognized their marriage. Did Cyril and Victoria's marriage offend the Russian Orthodox Church as much as it offended Nicholas and Alexandra?

According to the laws of the Russian Orthodox Church it was forbidden for first cousins to marry although dispensation could be given.
As the Tsar quiet conveniently was head of said church it didn't matter much which institution had it's rules most offended - The Tsar controlled them both.

 

[M. Payton]

In profile: the British princess who scandalised the royal family | History Extra

An interesting article.

Thank you for the very interesting history lesson. What an interesting and strong woman she was during that time period. I really enjoyed reading it.

 

[Gawin]

According to the laws of the Russian Orthodox Church it was forbidden for first cousins to marry although dispensation could be given.
As the Tsar quiet conveniently was head of said church it didn't matter much which institution had it's rules most offended - The Tsar controlled them both.

For more details see ""The Russian Imperial Succession" by Brien Purcell Horan.

Scroll down to "The Marriage of the Grand Duke Kirill."

"The Russian Imperial Succession" by Brien Purcell Horan — The Russian Legitimist

 

[Gawin]

No, if you read footnote 18 in the source I linked above, Mr. Horan states:

"I am grateful to Professor Russell Martin of Westminster College (Ph.D., Harvard University) for sharing with me his detailed knowledge of the Russian Orthodox Church and its connections over the centuries with the Romanoff dynasty. Dr. Martin has correctly pointed out that the Russian church rarely enforced the traditional canonical rules against marriage within certain degrees of consanguinity. It is important to note that not only first cousin marriages technically violated the consanguinity rules, but also marriages between first cousins once removed and even between second cousins: there was no such thing as different "degrees of validity", so all such unions would equally transgress the strict letter of Orthodox rules."

He goes on to list other Romanov marriages that violated this rule, for example Grand Duke Serge Alexandrovich who married Princess Elizabeth of Hesse and the Rhine, his first cousin once removed on his mother's side.

These sources also states the prohibition wasn't limited to first cousins only:

https://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2013/03/prohibited-marriages-in-orthodox-church.html

https://www.flintorthodox.com/requirments-for-marriage/

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Gawin, It was very informative about the requirements for marriage. Thank you for the sources.
How informed would Grand Duke Cyril have been on all these marriage restrictions?

 

[Gawin]

You're welcome. I found that website while searching for information on Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna's claim to be the head of the Romanov family.

It seems Cyril was aware of the restrictions regarding cousins. He was also aware that some of the opposition was due to Victoria Melita's scandalous divorce from her first husband. The situation was further complicated by the fact that her first husband happened to be the Empress Alexandra's brother. Alexandra had taken her brother's side and disliked Victoria Melita intensely.

Cyril, his parents, and Victoria's mother (also a Russian Grand Duchess) must have assumed the restrictions could be overcome since once the marriage took place they all lobbied the Emperor to recognize it. But Nicholas and Alexandra were incensed that Cyril had disobeyed them and the couple were banished from Russia.

It wasn't until 1910 - when emotions had cooled and Cyril was now third in line to the throne - that Nicholas recognized the marriage and the couple returned to Russia. Only to flee for their lives seven years later!

 

[JR76]

You're welcome. I found that website while searching for information on Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna's claim to be the head of the Romanov family.

It seems Cyril was aware of the restrictions regarding cousins. He was also aware that some of the opposition was due to Victoria Melita's scandalous divorce from her first husband. The situation was further complicated by the fact that her first husband happened to be the Empress Alexandra's brother. Alexandra had taken her brother's side and disliked Victoria Melita intensely.

Cyril, his parents, and Victoria's mother (also a Russian Grand Duchess) must have assumed the restrictions could be overcome since once the marriage took place they all lobbied the Emperor to recognize it. But Nicholas and Alexandra were incensed that Cyril had disobeyed them and the couple were banished from Russia.

It wasn't until 1910 - when emotions had cooled and Cyril was now third in line to the throne - that Nicholas recognized the marriage and the couple returned to Russia. Only to flee for their lives seven years later!

One does wonder if the sickness of Alexei had anything to do with the marriage being recognised.
Had he been healthy and expected to father children of his own I don't think the Tsar would have been so quick to forgive the couple for disobeying orders. The Tsarina was the one who wore the pants in that family and, like an elephant she never forgot anything.

 

[Alison H]

It's any first cousins, as far as I know. The story is that Grand Duke Michael wanted to marry Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh, which would've been a very suitable match had his father and her mother not been siblings. So that was a no-go. In the days when the rule was followed in the Western churches, the Pope would grant a dispensation (if suitably "encouraged"), but I've never come across any instance of a Russian Orthodox patriarch doing that.

 

[Gawin]

Yes, and by 1910 Nicholas's brother Michael was involved with his divorced mistress (they eventually married morganatically). Cyril was next in line after Michael, followed by his own unmarried brothers who were occupied with their own mistresses, so Cyril's marriage to a granddaughter of Queen Victoria (however scandalous) must have appeared highly suitable in comparison.

 

[JR76]

It's any first cousins, as far as I know. The story is that Grand Duke Michael wanted to marry Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh, which would've been a very suitable match had his father and her mother not been siblings. So that was a no-go. In the days when the rule was followed in the Western churches, the Pope would grant a dispensation (if suitably "encouraged"), but I've never come across any instance of a Russian Orthodox patriarch doing that.

There was no Russian patriarch between 1721 and 1918. The church was run by the Holy synod of which the tsar was "extreme judge" .

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Do you believe that the fact that Cyril's father, Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich, being Nicholas' senior male uncle may have had any influence upon Nicholas II to recognize the marriage of Cyril and Victoria?

 

[Gawin]

Yes, because that meant Cyril was next in line for the throne after Nicholas's sickly son Alexis and his unmarried brother Michael who was involved with an unsuitable mistress.

 

[JR76]

Yes, and by 1910 Nicholas's brother Michael was involved with his divorced mistress (they eventually married morganatically). Cyril was next in line after Michael, followed by his own unmarried brothers who were occupied with their own mistresses, so Cyril's marriage to a granddaughter of Queen Victoria (however scandalous) must have appeared highly suitable in comparison.

1910 is also the year of birth of Michael's son George, later styled Count Brasov. After his birth Michael talked openly about marrying Natalia and his hopes that this would have him removed from the Line of Succession.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

1910 is also the year of birth of Michael's son George, later styled Count Brasov. After his birth Michael talked openly about marrying Natalia and his hopes that this would have him removed from the Line of Succession.

Why would Grand Duke Michael want to remove himself from the Line of Succession?

 

[JR76]

Why would Grand Duke Michael want to remove himself from the Line of Succession?

From what Wikipedia tells me (yes, I know it´s not a fully trustworthy source) it seems Michael was afraid that if Alexei died and he´d become heir and eventually Tsar he would be unable to marry and spend his life with Natalia.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Grand Duke Cyril and Victoria Melita wed without the formal approval of King Edward VII of England, as the Royal Marriages Act of 1772 would have required.

 

[Benjamin]

Grand Duke Cyril and Victoria Melita wed without the formal approval of King Edward VII of England, as the Royal Marriages Act of 1772 would have required.

This is interesting, especially considering that their descendants are in the line of succession - however distantly - to the British throne.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Grand Duke Cyril and Victoria Melita wed without the formal approval of King Edward VII of England, as the Royal Marriages Act of 1772 would have required.

This is interesting, especially considering that their descendants are in the line of succession - however distantly - to the British throne.

No, by marrying without the formal approval of the king of Great Britain and Ireland (as the Foreign Office confirmed), Victoria Melita ensured that her marriage and children were illegitimate by the laws of England. Illegitimate children are excluded from inheriting the British throne under the Act of Settlement.

See here for a more comprehensive explanation. https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-and-royal-marriages-13232-6.html#post2492305

 

[MAfan]

But she was a British Princess who wed into a foreign family, so - if I don't mistake - she was exempted from getting the consent of Edward VII.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

But she was a British Princess who wed into a foreign family, so - if I don't mistake - she was exempted from getting the consent of Edward VII.

The exemption was for the descendants of British princesses who married into foreign families. The British princess herself was still subject to the Royal Marriages Act.

"That no descendant of the body of his late majesty King George the Second, male or female, (other than the issue of princesses who have married, or may hereafter marry, into foreign families) shall be capable of contracting matrimony without the previous consent of his Majesty, his heirs, or successors [...]"

 

[JR76]

This is interesting, especially considering that their descendants are in the line of succession - however distantly - to the British throne.

No, by marrying without the formal approval of the king of Great Britain and Ireland (as the Foreign Office confirmed), Victoria Melita ensured that her marriage and children were illegitimate by the laws of England. Illegitimate children are excluded from inheriting the British throne under the Act of Settlement.

See here for a more comprehensive explanation. https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-and-royal-marriages-13232-6.html#post2492305

Victoria Melita's children were descendants of King George I on their father's side. Since that descent was through a princess who had married into a foreign house Kirill Vladimirovitj would not have had to ask for formal approval to marry from the British monarch and their children would still be in the British line of succession?
Even if that's not the case this discussion show how ridiculous the current British line of succession and the laws surrounding it is. They should cut it off after the descendants of George V or even better after the descendants of Elizabeth II.

 

[Gawin]

Victoria Melita's children were descendants of King George I on their father's side. Since that descent was through a princess who had married into a foreign house Kirill Vladimirovitj would not have had to ask for formal approval to marry from the British monarch and their children would still be in the British line of succession?
Even if that's not the case this discussion show how ridiculous the current British line of succession and the laws surrounding it is. They should cut it off after the descendants of George V or even better after the descendants of Elizabeth II.

But Victoria Melita still needed approval so Kirill's status was irrelevant. For example, Edward VII needed permission even though his bride Alexandra of Denmark was descended from a British princess who had married into a foreign house. And their son George V needed permission because his status as a British prince cancelled his own descent from a British princess who had married into a foreign house.

Both of Victoria Melita's daughters married descendants of the Electress Sophia, so their own children were in the line of succession. Her son Vladimir did not, so his daughter Maria doesn't have succession rights. But because she married a prince who does, her son George and grandson Alexander do.

 

[Benjamin]

No, by marrying without the formal approval of the king of Great Britain and Ireland (as the Foreign Office confirmed), Victoria Melita ensured that her marriage and children were illegitimate by the laws of England. Illegitimate children are excluded from inheriting the British throne under the Act of Settlement.

See here for a more comprehensive explanation. https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...-and-royal-marriages-13232-6.html#post2492305

In 1961, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia was 51st in the line of succession to the British throne. Her father, Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich, was 50th, naturally.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110809134620/http://www.wargs.com/essays/succession/1961.html

By 2001, the grand duchess was 135th in line, and Grand Duke George Mikhailovich was 136th.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110725024023/http://www.wargs.com/essays/succession/2001.html

Further, as the source you linked to states, "There is no record of a Royal Consent being asked for or given to the second marriage of Princess Victoria in 1905, but she was marrying for the second time into a foreign family. (No. 3 on the list)."

 

[Gawin]

In 1961, Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia was 51st in the line of succession to the British throne. Her father, Grand Duke Vladimir Kirillovich, was 50th, naturally.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110809134620/http://www.wargs.com/essays/succession/1961.html

By 2001, the grand duchess was 135th in line, and Grand Duke George Mikhailovich was 136th.

https://web.archive.org/web/20110725024023/http://www.wargs.com/essays/succession/2001.html

Further, as the source you linked to states, "There is no record of a Royal Consent being asked for or given to the second marriage of Princess Victoria in 1905, but she was marrying for the second time into a foreign family. (No. 3 on the list)."

William Addams Reitwiesner was mistaken. Victoria Melita did not request the necessary permission for her marriage to Grand Duke Kirill and therefore her children did not have succession rights. The fact that she married into a foreign family made no difference. The daughters of George III, George IV, Queen Victoria, and Edward VII who married foreign princes all required permission.


The source Tatiana Marie linked to also states (in reply to J. C. Grant's points): " Items 3 & 4. Although the Duke of Edinburgh was Sovereign Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, the Act none the less applies to His issue as they are not 'issue of a daughter who has married with a foreign family'. If you can confirm that in fact in both these cases no consent was given by King Edward VII, the issue of these two marriages are perforce by the law of England, illegitimate. See Heseltine v. Lady Augusta Murray; 2 Addams 399, & Sussex Peerage Case; (1844), 11 Cl. & F 85."

 

[Benjamin]

The late Mr Reitwiesner was an authoritative historian and genealogist. I trust what his research led him to conclude.

In 1921, Princess/Grand Duchess Victoria Melita was 20th in line herself. Grand Duke Kirill was 747th. So, why wouldn't their children have been in line? Kirill would not have needed to ask for permission (which neither of them did) and there would be no reason why Maria, Kira, and Vladimir were not in the line of succession themselves.

 

[JR76]

William Addams Reitwiesner was mistaken. Victoria Melita did not request the necessary permission for her marriage to Grand Duke Kirill and therefore her children did not have succession rights. The fact that she married into a foreign family made no difference. The daughters of George III, George IV, Queen Victoria, and Edward VII who married foreign princes all required permission.


The source Tatiana Marie linked to also states (in reply to J. C. Grant's points): " Items 3 & 4. Although the Duke of Edinburgh was Sovereign Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, the Act none the less applies to His issue as they are not 'issue of a daughter who has married with a foreign family'. If you can confirm that in fact in both these cases no consent was given by King Edward VII, the issue of these two marriages are perforce by the law of England, illegitimate. See Heseltine v. Lady Augusta Murray; 2 Addams 399, & Sussex Peerage Case; (1844), 11 Cl. & F 85."

As daughters of Grand Duchess Maria Alexandrovna, a great-great-great-granddaughter of George I, they were in fact the "issue of a daughter who has married with a foreign family". Yes, I know that the Farran theory has been disapproved of by most scholars, but it still shows how unnecessarily open to interpretation the British line of succession is.